Lost 6x15: "Across the Sea"

[DeafPoet]

If nothing else, it was wonderful to have Alison Janney on the show. They kept that pretty quiet, if I'm mistaken nobody knew.

Actually, about all the producers would say about this episode was that Allison Janney was in it.

But no, I guess they weren't shouting it from the rooftops. If you didn't listen to the podcast or read the press releases you probably wouldn't have known.

 

[Peter the Younger]

I've been thinking about it a lot since last night, and the more I do, the more I feel it was a failure of execution, not concept. At some point, it's pretty clear the writers decided that any answer would reduce the mystery, would make it less interesting. In one sense, I can respect that, and even agree with it: if they came out and said "the island is an alien spaceship, the island is Eden, the island is a giant magic sea turtle", some fraction of the audience would have cried "lame!" But there is a happy medium between that and New Agey vagueness like "it's the warmest light you have ever felt." If you want to say the Island's energy is beyond human comprehension, fine - come out and say it. If you want to say that the line of guardians stretches back to the dawn of Man, fine - come out and say it. If you want to say "the rules" are whatever the island guardian decides them to be, fine - but give us something more than "you are like me," without bothering to give us more than the barest suggestion of what "me" can do. I'm getting really tired of scifi and fantasy shows being unable to man up and plant their flag on an explanation.

 

[Servo]

8. Oh, and a WIZARD FUCKING DID IT. Arrrgggghhhh.

Your simplistic interpretation of what happened notwithstanding, get over it.

Yeah, I mean, she was obviously a witch, not wizard. Wizards wear pointy purple hats.

Sarcasm aside, my point is, just because we didn't get a full description of what exactly happened, doesn't mean we won't ever, or that these events won't be referenced or built upon in the coming final episodes.

The conclusion jumping, and cries of wizardry (read as; "I don't get it yet, so I'm blaming the writers") in this thread is astounding, even by the internet's high standard of baseless whining.

Like I said, this episode is set 1,981 years before 815 crashed, if the stuff on the internet is to be believed, so is it so inconcievable that Jacob could have changed his mind about a few things, and learned more about the nature of the island and its power since he placed those bodies in the caves?

 

[startrekwatcher]

For myself I thought it was fucking great. But then, I wasn't expecting some rapturous enlightenment at the end of it. That must have something to do with it.

The thing though is LOST has many times done key mythology episodes that didn't provide any definitive answers--only more head-scratching but they were far more effective than this episode i.e. "The Man Behind the Curtain", "The Shape of Things to Come", "Dead is Dead".

 

[RoJoHen]

Your simplistic interpretation of what happened notwithstanding, get over it.

Yeah, I mean, she was obviously a witch, not wizard. Wizards wear pointy purple hats.

Sarcasm aside, my point is, just because we didn't get a full description of what exactly happened, doesn't mean we won't ever, or that these events won't be referenced or built upon in the coming final episodes.

The conclusion jumping, and cries of wizardry (read as; "I don't get it yet, so I'm blaming the writers") in this thread is astounding, even by the internet's high standard of baseless whining.

Like I said, this episode is set 1,981 years before 815 crashed, if the stuff on the internet is to be believed, so is it so inconcievable that Jacob could have changed his mind about a few things, and learned more about the nature of the island and its power since he placed those bodies in the caves?

I am Sarcasm Incarnate.

Seriously, though, I'm always amazed when people jump to conclusions about something based on a single episode. Have we all not been watching the same show? You can't just look at this single episode as an explanation for everything we've seen. "A wizard did it." A wizard did what, exactly? Made Jacob immortal? Yes, well, Jacob also made Richard immortal. We still don't know how or why, and we don't know enough about CrazyMom or the previous guardians of the Island, if there were any.

 

[Hunter X]

My only real "complaint" about this episode was that we didn't get to see any new stuff with the Losties. It was a weird format change. I was expecting it to flash back and forth between the Losties' present and Jacob/MiB's past.

This has been used fairly often in big mythology/background episodes, though it's always come with a framing device.

Yeah, the lack of context was really the weird thing for me. Again, it's a "complaint," not a complaint.

Fair point. I was probably being a little bit pedantic because I don't have much to say on the topic of wizards.

Oh, and there's an interview with Cuse and Lindeloft here about Across the Sea and their approach to writing the finale. I don't think those who didn't like the episode will find it all that comforting, but I thought it was an interesting read.

 

[Servo]

Seriously, though, I'm always amazed when people jump to conclusions about something based on a single episode. Have we all not been watching the same show? You can't just look at this single episode as an explanation for everything we've seen. "A wizard did it." A wizard did what, exactly? Made Jacob immortal? Yes, well, Jacob also made Richard immortal. We still don't know how or why, and we don't know enough about CrazyMom or the previous guardians of the Island, if there were any.

Exactly.

 

[RobertScorpio]

^^ the same...We're near the finish line so lets all just let it playout. If you're someone who hasn't watched, or stopped and are coming back after missing the past three years, then you really need to stay out of it...

Those of us who have been here since the start are the only ones, IMO, that have valid comments about what is going on since we aren't missing large chunks of info..

So, with that motto, I'm just sitting back and enjoying the end of this terrific ride which, IMO, has proven far more enjoyable that the last two Star Trek Series, Bab five, Firefly, NuBSG all together....

Rob

 

[RoJoHen]

The only real criticism (and I'm not sure it's really a criticism, but more of a realization) is that I don't think we're going to learn much more in the few episodes to come. But we don't need to. This show is not about Jacob or his mom. It's not about the glowy light inside the Cave. It's about the survivors of Flight 815, and I really doubt that some character is going to come along and present the full history of the Island, so we shouldn't be expected to presented with it either. It's not about The Island. It's about how The Island has affected our characters' lives.

 

[Checkmate]

And I don't suppose that it occured to you that, during the hundreds of years since the events in this episode, Jacob may have changed his mind and learned more about the island? Or does that kind of rational thinking get in the way of your pissy little rant?

No, I expect a story in a series like this, especially this close to the end, to actually have some fucking meaning. If nothing we see in the episode matches ANYTHING we've fucking seen through the series, why bother to even tell it that way?

Oh wait, making assumptions based upon the actual information given is "irrational" in your oh-so-pompous opinion. My mistake. Let's just close our eyes and hum really loudly and maybe it'll all go away! Yeah!

Yeah, because being an immortal evil smoke monster, who can not leave the island, probably doesn't know love or friendship anymore, and is destined to live out that existence for eternity, is such a fucking gift.

You assume he could leave before he was turned into a smokemonster. CrazyFuckingMommy already said he couldn't. Considering she's the wizard who put those magic rules into place for them (hey, at least we got that as an "answer"), why are you fucking assuming he could leave just fine beforehand? All we saw was CrazyFuckingMommy going psycho over the prospect of him tapping into the island's power and killing all the NotOthers for helping him do it (and probably them using it to get off the island).

Your simplistic interpretation of what happened notwithstanding, get over it.

Your assumption that it's something more is ten times more simplistic and pathetic. Get over it. We saw the cunt cast the fucking spell. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. And since the end is only about three hours away, she's all we're ever going to get about the origin of the Magic Cave of Quasi-Midichlorian Goodness (and Evil Apparently, Even If That Makes Even Less Fucking Sense).

The fact that the writers spit in yours and everyone else's face not even withstanding. (You know, the scene where the BigBadFuckingCrazyMommyWitch says "fuck off with asking questions.")

 

[Dream]

There was such a big deal made about the rules and loopholes between Jacob and MIB from the previous episodes about them not being able to hurt each other, that I was expecting a mountain to blow up when one of them tried to do that. But in this episode nothing happened. Kid Jacob beat the crap out of MIB and nothing happened. Adult Jacob beat his brother to death and nothing happened.

Crazy mom says that she made it so they can't hurt each other? Doesn't seem that way to me.

 

[D Man]

Oh, and there's an interview with Cuse and Lindeloft here about Across the Sea and their approach to writing the finale. I don't think those who didn't like the episode will find it all that comforting, but I thought it was an interesting read.

I really didn't like this episode at all, but I'm very, very slowly warming up to certain parts of it. That article helped, actually. Thanks for the link. But at the same time, I reverse my thanks because their answer to the last question about the outrigger shootout from last year was that we'll never know. Damn them!

 

[Servo]

Before I address your rant, I just want to say that the only thing that's pathetic here, is you and the anger you're displaying over a TV show.

No, I expect a story in a series like this, especially this close to the end, to actually have some fucking meaning. If nothing we see in the episode matches ANYTHING we've fucking seen through the series, why bother to even tell it that way?

It's called growth. Why is something as simple as Jacob learning the value of men, and subsequently changing his original attitude, over a period of nearly 2,000 years, such an inconcievable concept for you?

You assume he could leave before he was turned into a smokemonster.

No I didn't. I merely stated that he was now an immortal smoke monster, destined to remain on the island, as opposed to being an immortal man, destined to remain on the island.

Reading comprehension. Look into it.

We saw the cunt cast the fucking spell. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. And since the end is only about three hours away, she's all we're ever going to get about the origin of the Magic Cave of Quasi-Midichlorian Goodness (and Evil Apparently, Even If That Makes Even Less Fucking Sense).

We saw her do no such thing. What we saw, and how you've chosen to interpret it, are two different things.

We saw her chant over a cup of liquid. That's not necessarily any more of a "magic spell" than when a priest blesses a cup of wine.

 

[Jenee]

Reasons this episode (and as a result, the show as a whole) were awful:

1. A wizard did it. Literally. Knotty Mommy Hair was shown to be a witch casting a spell to make Jacob magical like her, and the source of their power is a magic cave with a glowy golden light that permeates us all. (I bet the wine she gave him was filled with midichlorians!)

2. A wizard did it. This bears repeating because of how fucking lame it is.

3. Instead of actually answering anything at all, they just transferred all the questions to Knotty Mommy Hair the Witch and her Magic Cave. Nothing was answered. Not even Smokey's fucking name.

4. A wizard fucking did it.

5. The reason nothing was answered? Once again, it's because of Knotty Mommy Hair and her Magic Cave: "All questions just lead to more questions, so stop asking! Nyeh! And if you can't tell, I'm actually talking to you, audience, not MommyI'mAboutToMurder!"

6. A. Wizard. Fucking. Did. It.

7. Jacob turns out to a mentally retarded simpleton who's explanation to Richard bears no semblance to anything that happened in this episode. Smokey is the one who's pro-humanity (though distrustful of them) and Jacob is the one who wants nothing to do with them, which doesn't bear any semblance to anything we've seen in the series to date. Smokey's "fate worse than death" basically just made him into a superpowered version of what he was to begin with (ooh, so horrible for him... now he's still stuck on the island AND has super powers! sob sob!). And the boat-crashed survivors were apparently suprageniuses extraordinaire compared to the Dharma Initiative in that they not only discovered all these sources through primitive techniques, but mastered the principles of how to use it.

8. Oh, and a WIZARD FUCKING DID IT. Arrrgggghhhh.

You're just mad cuz it didn't fit into your version of what this show is about.

Guess those of us who said MIB wasn't completely evil weren't as far off base as what you were so convinced we were.

 

[exodus]

Reasons this episode (and as a result, the show as a whole) were awful:

1. A wizard did it. Literally. Knotty Mommy Hair was shown to be a witch casting a spell to make Jacob magical like her, and the source of their power is a magic cave with a glowy golden light that permeates us all. (I bet the wine she gave him was filled with midichlorians!)

2. A wizard did it. This bears repeating because of how fucking lame it is.

3. Instead of actually answering anything at all, they just transferred all the questions to Knotty Mommy Hair the Witch and her Magic Cave. Nothing was answered. Not even Smokey's fucking name.

4. A wizard fucking did it.

5. The reason nothing was answered? Once again, it's because of Knotty Mommy Hair and her Magic Cave: "All questions just lead to more questions, so stop asking! Nyeh! And if you can't tell, I'm actually talking to you, audience, not MommyI'mAboutToMurder!"

6. A. Wizard. Fucking. Did. It.

7. Jacob turns out to a mentally retarded simpleton who's explanation to Richard bears no semblance to anything that happened in this episode. Smokey is the one who's pro-humanity (though distrustful of them) and Jacob is the one who wants nothing to do with them, which doesn't bear any semblance to anything we've seen in the series to date. Smokey's "fate worse than death" basically just made him into a superpowered version of what he was to begin with (ooh, so horrible for him... now he's still stuck on the island AND has super powers! sob sob!). And the boat-crashed survivors were apparently suprageniuses extraordinaire compared to the Dharma Initiative in that they not only discovered all these sources through primitive techniques, but mastered the principles of how to use it.

8. Oh, and a WIZARD FUCKING DID IT. Arrrgggghhhh.

You're just mad cuz it didn't fit into your version of what this show is about.

Guess those of us who said MIB wasn't completely evil weren't as far off base as what you were so convinced we were.

Exactly.

 

[propita]

Guess those of us who said MIB wasn't completely evil weren't as far off base as what you were so convinced we were.

And yet, the creators said that last week's episode was supposed to lay to rest, once and for all, that MIB was evil through and through.

I looked at TWOP's forum a little. Many pissed people.

Personally, it all seems to me that either they (Damon/Lindleloff) changed their minds a number of times during the run of the show what the hell they were doing, or they were winging huge amounts of it.

I think some Lost fans will understand how some Voyager fans felt. That after years of watching and enjoying the show, they got spit on by someone behind the making of the show and told, "Well, the show's over. We don't need your attention (and money from it) anymore, so f**k off. And we'll screw the show just because we can."

 

[RoJoHen]

Guess those of us who said MIB wasn't completely evil weren't as far off base as what you were so convinced we were.

And yet, the creators said that last week's episode was supposed to lay to rest, once and for all, that MIB was evil through and through.

Maybe he is...NOW. Doesn't mean he had to start that way.

If you lived for 1000 years, would you be the same as you were when you were a child? I'm not the same person I was 5 years ago!

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Well that was different. Even for this show. But a lot of fun! They veered a bit close to Disney territory with the idyllic magic fountain jazz...they could have deleted the flowers...but Bambi didn't show up and it all turned out okay.

I like the resolution to the Adam & Eve mystery and the birth of Smokey - so far as that is the birth of Smokey. Which leads to the problem that for every question they answer, they raise 12 more questions.

Was Allison Janney playing Mother Nature, the Spirit of the Island, or just some deranged old psycho bitch? Is Smokey the evil doppleganger of the magical golden light? Did it exist before MIB did a face-dive down the waterfall? Was this happening 200 years ago or 2000? Why were they speaking Latin at the start and then switched to English (???) - were they time travellers?

At this point, I give up bitching about wanting answers. Just tell us what the flashsideways are, and I'm happy.

Guess those of us who said MIB wasn't completely evil weren't as far off base as what you were so convinced we were.

And yet, the creators said that last week's episode was supposed to lay to rest, once and for all, that MIB was evil through and through.

MIB wasn't evil at all. He was the victim of a lunatic woman who murdered his mother and lied to him. He went off to live his own life and she attacked him and killed his buddies. Why wouldn't he kill her? She wasn't his real mother and she was clearly dangerous. Jacob came off as a total idiot - though the way they were raised, I can't fault him for that. It's more surprising that MIB wasn't a total idiot.

Then MIB died and I dunno, Smokey stole his soul and decided to mimic him? The original guy who was MIB died, so what/who is Smokey?

The good/evil stuff is hopelessly garbled. If they wanted to garble it, to send the message that good and evil are anything but black and white absolutes, they succeeded.

 

[RoJoHen]

Why were they speaking Latin at the start and then switched to English (???) - were they time travellers?

Pretty sure it was to keep us from having to read subtitles the whole time...and to keep the actors from having to memorize an entire Latin script...and from keeping the writers from having to write an entire Latin script.

 

[DevilEyes]

I'm kind of in the middle on this one. I liked the familial aspect of it all, it was very mythic, but Allison Janney's dialogue was far too vaguely written. Yeah, yeah, every answer will lead to another question, very funny, writers. How about show don't tell; i.e., get on with it. For instance, I really would have preferred to see more post-Smokey history - the arrival of the Egyptians on the island, for instance.

Eh, it was a bit too late for Egyptians to come to the Island - at least for the ancient Egyptians that you're most probably referring to. Unless they hadn't already been to the Island, back in Mother's time or before (she might be centuries old, since she didn't seem to age at all in 30 years). Claudia (Jacob's and MIB's mother) definitely lived in Roman times. Not only she spoke Latin, but her dress gives us a definite time frame, though a rather wide one:

The red dress that Claudia is wearing is a Roman stola which was the accepted dress for married civilian women from the 2nd century BC until the late 3rd century AD.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Claudia

One of the things I was thinking about during this episode: Claire was told that she must keep Aaron, and that terrible things will happen if he is "raised by another". Everything would have been completely different for MIB and Jacob if they had been raised by their own biological mother! But now Aaron's biological mom has gone crazy... And MIB really seemed to care more about her than the other Losties?

-MIB hatred of Locke seems to really be a hatred of himself as his mother told him he was special and had a destiny which was the same things that Locke was told.

Excellent observation.

Also, MIB compared himself to Aaron, with his crazy mom, but Locke had a crazy mom, too (and was raised by others).

Lots of parent issues on this show!

Then MIB died and I dunno, Smokey stole his soul and decided to mimic him? The original guy who was MIB died, so what/who is Smokey?

No, MIB's original body died, but Mother made it clear the boys couldn't really kill each other, and the magic well is not supposed to kill you - it's supposed to give you "a fate worse than death" - like having your soul leave your mortal body and be transformed into black smoke, forever trapped on the Island?

Smokey is most definitely MIB - though maybe in a similar way that Crazy Claire is Claire, and Zombie Sayid was Sayid. Smokey has the same motives and memories as MIB, talked about his crazy mother and said that Jacob stole his body and his humanity.

The good/evil stuff is hopelessly garbled. If they wanted to garble it, to send the message that good and evil are anything but black and white absolutes, they succeeded.

When I saw that interview where they said that MIB is definitely and completely evil, I thought "they're obviously pulling one on us. No way it's going to be that straightforward". And of course, MIB was way more likable and sympathetic than Jacob in this one.

It's interesting that the "light" was treated in a very mystical way, but at the same time it's made clear that it's basically electromagnetic energy. Maybe life, spirit, soul can be described as energy, which leaves the body (matter) after death - and goes... where? And "every sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". I wonder if we'll still see a science/faith split in the remaining episodes.

Mother's observation that "every answer will lead to more questions" was actually very astute... If we learned more about her origin, we'd next ask about the people who brought her to the Island, etc. It's turtles all the way down.