First-Timer's Impressions of Deep Space Nine

[TheGodBen]

That speech is often referenced around here when it comes to what makes DS9 different to the other series, and it can be viewed as a statement of intent by Ira Behr as to the direction he wanted to take DS9. You can expect more stories with that sort of theme in the years to come. And there'll be more about the Maquis, of course.

By now, I'm getting a feeling that they pretty much did away with the mystical stuff. I'd like to see more of that, because imo DS9 is not growing into it's premise.

The mystical stuff will feature a little bit in an upcoming episode, but it they couldn't do too many episodes on the subject because the studio didn't like them. Here's a passage from Memory Alpha on the issue:

The producers had to fight to get this [season 4] episode made because the studio had told them not to do any shows about Bajoran religion. Episodes such as In the Hands of the Prophets from the first season and [name withheld ] from the second had proved to be somewhat unpopular with viewers, and Paramount felt that shows dealing with religion in general, and Bajoran religion in particular, were not ratings winners. According to Hans Beimler, "Shows about religion, alien religion and the Prophets, are extraordinarily difficult. Not because they're hard to produce, but because they're not proven ratings winners. As a result, the studio tends to be happier when DS9 is doing action stories." Similarly, René Echevarria explains, "The studio doesn't like Bajor stories. And Bajor's religion is one aspect of Bajor to which they really don't respond."

As a result, in seasons 3, 4 & 5 they could only get one big mystical episode made per year and those three episodes are nicknamed the Emissary Trilogy. The final episode of the trilogy proved to be surprisingly popular, and because of that they managed to include the Prophets more in the later seasons.

Ah, how good can an episode who's tagline reads "Sisko, Jake, Nog, and Quark go on a camping trip in the Gamma Quadrant." be?

It was a surprisingly good comic episode though. I loved the moment where Sisko gets confused on his way back from a midnight widdle and he stumbles into the wrong tent to see Quark naked. Best cliffhanger since Best of Both Worlds!

 

[apenpaap]

Ah, how good can an episode who's tagline reads "Sisko, Jake, Nog, and Quark go on a camping trip in the Gamma Quadrant." be?

It was a surprisingly good comic episode though. I loved the moment where Sisko gets confused on his way back from a midnight widdle and he stumbles into the wrong tent to see Quark naked. Best cliffhanger since Best of Both Worlds!

Urgh, don't remind me!

 

[DevilEyes]

^

The Maquis

So this is how the Maquis were born. Funny, I expected something different. Preemptive Strike and Voyager leave a different impression... a confusing one, but different. I was hoping something that would be a wish-fulfillment for my secret libertarian terrorist dreams.

Seasons 2 of DS9 and season 7 of TNG ran concurrently,sothe Maquis were first introduced in TNG Journey's End in March 1994, then The Maquis two-parter aired at the end of April/beginning of May, and finally Preemptive Strike aired in the middle of May. It's interesting to watch those episodes in that order, and of course the continuity works since they were all made and aired in practically the same time; Gul Evek and Admiral Nechayev appear in all of them.

I'm not sure what impression you got from TNG about the Maquis... to me they always seemed like a bunch of angry colonists that didn't want to leave their land or live under Cardassian rule.

Anyway, The Maquis two-parter is one of my DS9 early seasons favorites. Sisko's speech is one of the most memorable lines that pointed out the realism and moral ambiguity of DS9 and really feels like a manifest of the show's writers. I think I won't be spoiling the show much if I tell you that this is certainly not the last time you see the Maquis on DS9, even though none of the Maquis characters from this episode will ever reappear on the show - we won't see Cal Hudson again (probably because everyone realized how wooden Bernie Casey's performance was), nor the angry guy played by Tony Plana, nor the rather interesting Vulcan Maquis Sakonna (in her case, obviously she's not with the Maquis anymore so there would not be a strong reason for that, I suppose). The Maquis were used a lot more on DS9 than on TNG, and, ironically, in a way a lot more than on VOY, where everybody seemed to quickly forget that 1/3 of their crew used to be Maquis. They were certainly used much better and in a more effective way than on VOY.

Another development that affected the show even more is that Dukat - who completely stole the show in this two-parter - becomes more complex and ambiguous, and so do his dynamics with Sisko and Kira.

 

[Jimmy Bob]

Seasons 2 of DS9 and season 7 of TNG ran concurrently,sothe Maquis were first introduced in TNG Journey's End in March 1994, then The Maquis two-parter aired at the end of April/beginning of May, and finally Preemptive Strike aired in the middle of May. It's interesting to watch those episodes in that order, and of course the continuity works since they were all made and aired in practically the same time; Gul Evek and Admiral Nechayev appear in all of them.

I'm not sure what impression you got from TNG about the Maquis... to me they always seemed like a bunch of angry colonists that didn't want to leave their land or live under Cardassian rule.

Well, Journey's End was all native americans in space and Wesley Crusher with the magical spaceman. Preemptive Strike was all Ro Laren going rogue, like Lord Byron with the Greek War of Independence.

When you have never seen DS9 and go immediately to Voyager where they are "teh threat to starfleet's way of life" - it's a different kind of vibe. I wasn't exactly left with this grumpy farmers fighting other grumpy farmers view.

 

[DevilEyes]

Seasons 2 of DS9 and season 7 of TNG ran concurrently,sothe Maquis were first introduced in TNG Journey's End in March 1994, then The Maquis two-parter aired at the end of April/beginning of May, and finally Preemptive Strike aired in the middle of May. It's interesting to watch those episodes in that order, and of course the continuity works since they were all made and aired in practically the same time; Gul Evek and Admiral Nechayev appear in all of them.

I'm not sure what impression you got from TNG about the Maquis... to me they always seemed like a bunch of angry colonists that didn't want to leave their land or live under Cardassian rule.

Well, Journey's End was all native americans in space and Wesley Crusher with the magical spaceman. Preemptive Strike was all Ro Laren going rogue, like Lord Byron with the Greek War of Independence.

When you have never seen DS9 and go immediately to Voyager where they are "teh threat to starfleet's way of life" - it's a different kind of vibe. I wasn't exactly left with this grumpy farmers fighting other grumpy farmers view.

Well, grumpy farmers were how the Maquis started... but later on, no doubt, the 'fighting Cardies' aspect attracted some Bajorans to the Maquis, the violence aspect attracted a few sociopaths like Lon Suder, the lack of formal hierarchy attracted some people who couldn't fit into Starfleet like Torres, and the romanticism of the whole thing certainly attracted quite a few people who dreamed of being outlaw heroes... as you'll see in later seasons of DS9...

 

[flemm]

As a result, in seasons 3, 4 & 5 they could only get one big mystical episode made per year and those three episodes are nicknamed the Emissary Trilogy. The final episode of the trilogy proved to be surprisingly popular, and because of that they managed to include the Prophets more in the later seasons.

That's Destiny, Accession and Rapture you're refering to as the Emissary Trilogy? I've never heard that nickname used before.

Interestingly, Bajoran mysticism eventually becomes a way for the writers to inscribe their creative struggles into the show's unfolding plot.

One could argue that this is true to an extent beginning with Emissary. Sisko's description of what it means to be linear (every action has its consequences on what comes afterward, what makes it all worth while is discovering and dealing with those consequences, "exploring" through time as much as through space) is a pretty accurate description of what DS9 tries to do differently from other Trek shows. But, as with Sisko's life, all too often "it's not linear": the show struggles to break free of its episodic Trek roots and develop a coherent plotline.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

I must say I'm not a huge fan of Blood Oath. The Klingon actors were fun, but as a story it doesn't do much for me.

The Maquis is more my thing, but I don't like it as much as other people. For me, TNG Preemptive Strike was a better Maquis story.

 

[DevilEyes]

As a result, in seasons 3, 4 & 5 they could only get one big mystical episode made per year and those three episodes are nicknamed the Emissary Trilogy. The final episode of the trilogy proved to be surprisingly popular, and because of that they managed to include the Prophets more in the later seasons.

That's Destiny, Accession and Rapture you're refering to as the Emissary Trilogy? I've never heard that nickname used before.

Interestingly, Bajoran mysticism eventually becomes a way for the writers to inscribe their creative struggles into the show's unfolding plot.

One could argue that this is true to an extent beginning with Emissary. Sisko's description of what it means to be linear (every action has its consequences on what comes afterward, what makes it all worth while is discovering and dealing with those consequences, "exploring" through time as much as through space) is a pretty accurate description of what DS9 tries to do differently from other Trek shows. But, as with Sisko's life, all too often "it's not linear": the show struggles to break free of its episodic Trek roots and develop a coherent plotline.

<snip>

Uh, you might want to put a part of that post in spoiler tags.

By now, I'm getting a feeling that they pretty much did away with the mystical stuff. I'd like to see more of that, because imo DS9 is not growing into it's premise.

The mystical stuff will feature a little bit in an upcoming episode, but it they couldn't do too many episodes on the subject because the studio didn't like them. Here's a passage from Memory Alpha on the issue:

The producers had to fight to get this [season 4] episode made because the studio had told them not to do any shows about Bajoran religion. Episodes such as In the Hands of the Prophets from the first season and [name withheld ] from the second had proved to be somewhat unpopular with viewers, and Paramount felt that shows dealing with religion in general, and Bajoran religion in particular, were not ratings winners. According to Hans Beimler, "Shows about religion, alien religion and the Prophets, are extraordinarily difficult. Not because they're hard to produce, but because they're not proven ratings winners. As a result, the studio tends to be happier when DS9 is doing action stories." Similarly, René Echevarria explains, "The studio doesn't like Bajor stories. And Bajor's religion is one aspect of Bajor to which they really don't respond."

As a result, in seasons 3, 4 & 5 they could only get one big mystical episode made per year and those three episodes are nicknamed the Emissary Trilogy. The final episode of the trilogy proved to be surprisingly popular, and because of that they managed to include the Prophets more in the later seasons.

In the Hands of the Prophets and the upcoming season 2 episode - both great episodes, IMO (though Jimmy Bob might not enjoy the latter that much because of his jealousy... I mean, dislike of Bareil ) have nothing to do with mysticism, though. They are realistic episodes about politics, and religion figures only in its political role.

 

[flemm]

Uh, you might want to put a part of that post in spoiler tags.

I removed the spoiler portion entirely, this is indeed not the place for such musings

 

[TheGodBen]

That's Destiny, Accession and Rapture you're refering to as the Emissary Trilogy? I've never heard that nickname used before.

That's apparently what the writers called it behind the scenes, according to the Companion. (Not that I've read the Companion, I just read it in the background material on MA.)

Spoiler: The Emissary Trilogy

It wasn't a planned out trilogy, they just found themselves with three episodes that were significant steps in Sisko's journey as the Emissary. Destiny was the first crack in Sisko's defence, the episode where he first started to think there might be something to the Emissary business. Accession was the episode where he finally accepted his position, and in Rapture he completely gave himself over to the Prophets, he was willing to sacrifice his job and his life for them.

In the Hands of the Prophets and the upcoming season 2 episode - both great episodes, IMO (though Jimmy Bob might not enjoy the latter that much because of his jealousy... I mean, dislike of Bareil ) have nothing to do with mysticism, though. They are realistic episodes about politics, and religion figures only in its political role.

Yeah, but we're talking about studio heads here. They hear that Ira wants to do an episode involving the Prophets and they say "The Prophets were mentioned back in 1x20 and that didn't test well with our focus group. Why don't you guys do something with the Borg? And maybe you should put Terry Farrell in a catsuit."

 

[Jimmy Bob]

And maybe you should put Terry Farrell in a catsuit."

Terry Farrell is going to be in a catsuit? When?

 

[flemm]

I'm not even sure I know more about Sisko than I did before.

Well, to the extent that a one-episode-romance serves a purpose in the long-run, it's to help the writers get a better handle on the character emotionally. I think Second Sight basically serves that purpose for Sisko.

Granted, the sci-fi premise is about a woman projecting her longing for happiness into physical form, but on an emotional level the projection works both ways: it's also about Sisko opening up to intimacy again and feeling drawn to another person for the first time since Jennifer's death.

The "projection" evaporates in the end, but the experience opens up a tender side of Sisko's personality that's been missing since the pilot. There's also some good interaction with Jake, who basically tells his father that he's ready to move on as well and would be open to having a motherly figure in his life again.

So, I see this episode as a reasonably effective version of the one-episode-romance insofar as it does open up some possiblities for Sisko's personal life that will be followed up on in a more satisfying manner later on.

Beyond that, as I rewatch these early episodes I'm reminded just how good the chemistry is among the main cast: often the little throw-away moments are the ones I enjoy the most. In this episode for example, Kira's pleading with Sisko to let her skip dinner with the egomaniac scientist, and Bashir's obliviousness to how annoying he is.

It's mediocre fare for DS9, but there's still a lot going on here that I enjoy.

 

[TheGodBen]

Terry Farrell is going to be in a catsuit? When?

It's not quite a catsuit, but when they change the uniforms in season 5 hers is noticeably tighter than the male cast and, unlike the male version of the uniform, hers is still a one-piece. Here's a pic.

 

[Jimmy Bob]

The Wire

Wow.

 

[Jimmy Bob]

The Wire was just so amazing that I just didn't know how to express how awesome it was.

So I went with "wow". But it's the very embodiment of the word "wow". It completes it. It perfects it's meaning. It redefines it. It fulfills the destiny of the word "wow."

It's just that amazing. This really is something I've never seen before.

It was just so...

On one hand it was a complete mindfuck, then also a character vehicle for both Garak and Bashir and their interesting relationship, and the whole fleshing out of the cardassian society...

It's a multi-perfection. I'm just incapable of, hell I'm unworthy, to even try to describe how amazing this episode is.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Re-watching The Wire last year, I must say I didn't get what all the fuss was about. However, I knew it was supposed to be a classic, so I watched it again, and lo, I liked it a lot more. I guess this is really the definitive Garak episode, the one that defined how he would always be remembered, and it's a really good bit of acting from Andrew Robinson and Alexander Siddig.

 

[Jimmy Bob]

Crossover

So that's how a shapeshifter looks like when he dies.

My, things have certainly taken the turn for the worse after The Glorious Reign Of Our Mistress - Empress Sato.

I'm aware that it would be more trekkianly correct for me to say "things have certainly taken the turn for the worse after Spock", but I came directly to DS9 after ENT. So that's how I sense things.

What I like about Mirror Universe episodes is the similarity of that political system to various historical empires. It's the Byzantium of Trek verse. It's like if "eastern despotism" instead of "western civilization" would have been the basis for this brave new world.

I don't really believe in distinctions like "eastern despotism" and "western civilization", but Mirror Universe world does bring to mind Byzantium, China and Austria-Hungary empire - one cruel bureaucratic mess with despotism.

And there's also kinky sex. Or near sex, since this is not a cable show. But I know I'll certainly be producing some great works of fiction about Kira raping Kira.

That was just hot.

But what I hate about mirror universe is that it's so relying upon the normal universe. It plays the second fiddle, it does not do things on it's own. Every change is a result of the influence from normal universe. Empress Sato's ship, captain Kirk's reforms and Bashir's Spartacus act. Everything is just too dependent on the prime universe. And what's with the "prime reality" anyway... that's just so universo-centric from our side. Because the other one is always the mirror.

I am teh outraged!

It's interesting that mirror Odo and Quark were killed off so early.

But the most interesting mirror person for me was Sisko. That was just a vulgar sort of man, large and... made me wonder what his moral core might be. At first he seems like one of those... um, upstarts? Parvenus? Privileged Slave?

It's when you're passing as someone else (class, ethnicity, race) and you're all superior towards your own kinsfolk, because you're a mister now.

At first he seemed to be like that. But, then he just did the complete turn and... I'm figuring this Sisko is just a nihilist. He just likes to see the world burn.

 

[TheGodBen]

The Wire was the last "new" episode of DS9 I saw, I caught it as a rerun one Friday afternoon several years after the show ended. Having thought I had seen them all, this episode was a wonderful treat to finish the show off on. It is the quintessential Garak episode, and that final scene is the perfect embodiment of the man. See, you weren't disappointed after hearing Garak's side of the story, were you?

Also, if you're very lucky Enabran Tain may show up again in the future.


Crossover is good fun. In a way this was another statement of intent by the DS9 writers, it was supposed to show that TNG and TOS's concept that you could tell a planet (or a universe) how to run their affairs and then fly off into the sunset was naive and that it could actually make situations worse. DS9 preferred to revisit past problems and build on them, which is why there will be several more visits to the mirror universe to come.

 

[DevilEyes]

My, things have certainly taken the turn for the worse after The Glorious Reign Of Our Mistress - Empress Sato.

I'm aware that it would be more trekkianly correct for me to say "things have certainly taken the turn for the worse after Spock", but I came directly to DS9 after ENT. So that's how I sense things.

Depends on the point of view. Worse for whom? They are probably not any worse for the Klingons or the Cardassians or the Bajorans (though we never even saw them in TOS or ENT), and we don't know if they're worse, better, or the same for the various alien races who used to be under the rule of the Terran Empire. The only race that we know for sure is worse off are Humans. And even that is questionable - it's worse for Human race as a whole, but many individual Humans were probably as oppressed, imprisoned or killed during the reign of the Terran Empire.

In other words, your view is terribly Human-centric.

But the most interesting mirror person for me was Sisko. That was just a vulgar sort of man, large and... made me wonder what his moral core might be. At first he seems like one of those... um, upstarts? Parvenus? Privileged Slave?

It's when you're passing as someone else (class, ethnicity, race) and you're all superior towards your own kinsfolk, because you're a mister now.

At first he seemed to be like that. But, then he just did the complete turn and... I'm figuring this Sisko is just a nihilist. He just likes to see the world burn.

No, I think he was just one of the many slaves/second class citizens who became collaborators in order to do the best they could for themselves. There are always quite a few people like that among the oppressed and enslaved peoples. He knows he's a slave, but at least he has it better than most slaves, he has a bit more freedom or at least an illusion of it. Until he realized that there is another way and it might be possible to fight for freedom, real freedom.

There's a pretty good MU story called "Freedom Angst" in the recent Seven Deadly Sins anthology, about Mirror Sisko and how he got to be where he is when we saw him in "Crossover". I liked it better than most of the later MU episodes of DS9.

Crossover is good fun. In a way this was another statement of intent by the DS9 writers, it was supposed to show that TNG and TOS's concept that you could tell a planet (or a universe) how to run their affairs and then fly off into the sunset was naive and that it could actually make situations worse. DS9 preferred to revisit past problems and build on them, which is why there will be several more visits to the mirror universe to come.

Unfortunately, each one is worse than the last. They really should have stopped in time, but they just thought it's such great fun even when it became really stupid and pointless. Kinda like many of the Ferengi episodes.

 

[flemm]

Unfortunately, each one is worse than the last. They really should have stopped in time, but they just thought it's such great fun even when it became really stupid and pointless. Kinda like many of the Ferengi episodes.

Though there is perhaps already a downward slope, I think the first few MU episodes basically work and are a fun parallel story to the main DS9 narrative. On the other hand, the final two could simply be deleted from existence and you would get no quarrel from me

As to the goal of this first "crossover," I agree with the GodBen that it turns the original series' premise on its head in true DS9 "deconstructive" tradition. Basically it's a sort of outlandish satire of the original series' concept, somewhat undermined perhaps by later crossovers, but still a fun episode imo.