5x05 Flesh and Stone (Grading/Discussion) SPOILERS!

[Sci]

Yeah, cause that's totally why she looked at him. In no way was it a "follow my lead" or "see where I'm going with this?" kind of look.

And that's a perfectly valid interpretation of the character, but it's one with which I disagree.

The cumulative evidence prompts my conclusion that Amy has feelings for the Doctor that go beyond just the sexual: Her long-time fixation on the Raggedy Doctor; her obvious attraction to him; her reluctance to acknowledge that Rory was her boyfriend when he and the Doctor met; her refusal to turn away when the Doctor was nude even though her boyfriend was standing right next to her; references to her having made Rory dress up as the Doctor; her room having been full of Doctor pictures and toys before he returned on the night of her wedding; her deliberate decision to take off her wedding ring when the Doctor returned to her before she knew he'd offer to let her travel with him; her willingness to go aboard the TARDIS when she knew there was no guarantee he'd return her in time for her wedding (as he'd returned late twice already); her look at the Doctor when discussing fancying someone she knew she shouldn't; her reluctance to tell the Doctor about her wedding until faced with imminent death; her referring to her reconsidering who she wanted to be with just prior to her attempt to seduce him.

Now, that's not to say that she's in "true love." One of the things I like about Amy is that she's written like a real 21-year-old, not a fairy tale princess who instantly falls for her One True Love once she meets her Prince Charming. (Or, Doctor Charming, as it were.) Nor do I necessarily think her feelings for him will result in anything beyond the platonic; given that she's been fixated on him since childhood, I think there's a very strong chance that her feelings for him are in fact very unhealthy and not something a relationship could ever be built upon, and I think there's a strong chance that the resolution we'll see to the Doctor/Amy relationship will be that they become loyal platonic friends a la the Doctor and Donna.

But I do think that Amy's feelings for the Doctor, at this period in the season, go deeper than just wanting sex or friendship. I think that Doctor Who Confidential got it right when they played Lady Gaga's "Bad Romance" over their intro to the Doctor/Amy kiss -- "Bad Romance" is a song about being in love with your friend when you know you shouldn't be, when you know that the relationship would be doomed if you were to try to make it more than friendship. That's where Amy is right now, in my view -- she wants to be with the Doctor, but on some level probably knows it would never work and it would be deeply unhealthy. "You and me could write a bad romance."

Now, do you know how to disagree with someone on a character interpretation without insulting them for it, or are you just going to continue being condescending for no particular reason?

She's sick and out of whack. That's what the entire next episode is going to be about for crying out loud; fixing her.

That's also a valid interpretation, but I don't share it. The Doctor didn't call her "sick" or "out of whack;" he's obviously concerned that she doesn't remember the Dalek Invasion, and given his lines about time being re-written and the erasure of memory of the soldiers who walked towards the Crack, I think it's reasonable to presume that there's a link between the Cracks and Amy's lack of memory of the Daleks. And certainly the Doctor thinks there's a connection between Amy, her wedding day, and the Cracks appearing.

But I don't think that that means he thinks that Amy is sick, and I certainly don't think that there's any evidence that her attempt to seduce the Doctor is a symptom of any such illness.

 

[Brent]

Just watched it, good episode! Really loved it. Everyone falling into the crack made me think of that one TNG episode where Dr. Crusher is trapped in a warp bubble and people start vanishing and no one remembers.

I don't mind the last scene with Amy, she is messed up, obviously she isn't romantically interested in the Doctor, she's just really horny about him! Saw him when she was a little girl, built hits huge fantasy about him, and now he is there, and he saved her life! She wants to have sex with this man, she's infatuated, not in love romantically. Obviously the Doctor does not feel this way about her, and that is just as it should be. He isn't interested in her like that. The Doctor wants to help her get back on track, hence next weeks episode.

Oh, and a lot happened in this ep, we learned a lot about the crack, I'm surprised we learned so much 5 episodes in.

 

[Gov Kodos]

I noticed the launch clock on the TARDIS also displays the 11.59 am to 12.00 pm time when the Doctor and Amy leave in episode one and it is clearly night outside. Perhaps the engines phasing and having trouble at the outset are part of the problem of there being a crack in time with two times coming together.

The Doctor keeps being suprised by time changes, he seemed to honestly be suprised by the twelve years later comment of Amy in episode one, and also he seemed suprised by Churchill's comment of calling a month prior. Perhaps the TARDIS is having some troubles with the timecrack when travelling?

Finally, we got a second reference about the Pandorica, prisoner Zero also mentioned it and said silence would fall, whatever that means. I wonder if in the first episode when the crack was on the monitor if the other ocilating signal was some kind of signal or message coming? Is the crack connected to the Pandorica somehow or is it a coincidence?

 

[Sparky]

I think that the crack is caused by the Pandorica. It opens and the crack is started. He will learn the crucial piece of info to stop it all when it is too late. Either just before everyone dies or just after they die but he will remember that "history can be rewritten." He then proceeds to cross his own timestream just ahead of the crack. The crack seems to be getting bigger in the future but but smaller in the past. (Huge crack and white light in River Pond's time...little crack in a wall in age 7 Amelia's time) He will alter certain moments in subtle ways as to not interfere with himself directly but he alters key moments so that Amy can either stop it herself or tell the Doctor how to stop it. Now of course you are thinking paradox. One Doctors past alters the other. Now the Doctor is dying or in conflict because there are 2 different versions of him in existence and one of them has to die to solve the paradox. Enter River Song and her killing a very good man.

Just my thoughts on what we have seen so far.

 

[Lonemagpie]

not a fairy tale princess

Fairy tale... She changed her name from Amelia to Amy because Amelia was too fairy tale. The Doctor says the Pandorica is just a fairy tale...

 

[Johnnymuffintop]

Something that I noticed while watching it for a third time with a friend.
1)There are moments where the angels are facing one another, therefore they are looking at one another, therefore they SHOULD be frozen.
2)I got the impression from Blink that the angels were organic until something looked at them, not always stone and can only move when you're looking.
3)If the crack erased all the angels, including the one that originally crashed the ship, the ship would have never crashed in the first place, none of the clerics or Bishop would have died, and River would have never called for the Doctor... Is that a crack in the wall I see or just a big plot hole?

Not exactly a plot hole but something else that bugged me:
Cracks, each one is VERY unique, never being the exact same shape... so why would EVERY little time crack be the same shape?

 

[Sci]

3)If the crack erased all the angels, including the one that originally crashed the ship, the ship would have never crashed in the first place, none of the clerics or Bishop would have died, and River would have never called for the Doctor... Is that a crack in the wall I see or just a big plot hole?

Wibly wobly timey wimey.

Not exactly a plot hole but something else that bugged me:
Cracks, each one is VERY unique, never being the exact same shape... so why would EVERY little time crack be the same shape?

Because this isn't a natural crack, but is instead a manifestation of the same problem in the fabric of space-time.

 

[Captain Pike]

You know, I think this is one of those rare cases where the concluding part of a two-parter is actually superior to the first. I think its mostly due to it being so different and that it focuses squarely on the elements of the season arc...

 

[Saul]

Something that I noticed while watching it for a third time with a friend.

3)If the crack erased all the angels, including the one that originally crashed the ship, the ship would have never crashed in the first place, none of the clerics or Bishop would have died, and River would have never called for the Doctor... Is that a crack in the wall I see or just a big plot hole?

We have seen things erased from existance but maybe events aren't erased. Amy doesn't remember the Daleks but we do see them still around. History might be drastically different if these events never happened. It could be just the way the crack works. And.........ah screw it.

2)I got the impression from Blink that the angels were organic until something looked at them, not always stone and can only move when you're looking.

Could be that they don't fully turn into something organic unless they are absolutly sure they can't be seen. They are supposed to be very fast yet we see they are very slow in this instance. Yet I had thought that it was a built in defense, not a natural one they could turn on and off. Otherwise they could escape each other in blink.

1)There are moments where the angels are facing one another, therefore they are looking at one another, therefore they SHOULD be frozen.

I think all the angels have to be looking at each other for them to turn the other to stone. One angel could just move the other away if that happened.

I too like that they did a episode that focused a lot of the overall season arc. Makes it far more interesting than leaving everything till the last episode.

 

[David cgc]

2)I got the impression from Blink that the angels were organic until something looked at them, not always stone and can only move when you're looking.

Could be that they don't fully turn into something organic unless they are absolutly sure they can't be seen. They are supposed to be very fast yet we see they are very slow in this instance. Yet I had thought that it was a built in defense, not a natural one they could turn on and off. Otherwise they could escape each other in blink.

The Doctor said if they assumed Amy could see, they'd freeze instinctually. Could be that they always turn to stone if they're being seen, but if they aren't actually being seen, they can still turn it on and off at will. Like holding your breath. And like breathing, if you weren't paying attention, you might not be sure if you were doing it automatically or consciously.

 

[V'ger]

for what River said about her killing the best man she ever met, that is just hinting at the obvious.
but also something abou the "Pandorica, Matt Smith is great and need more of him
Amy honestly i dont give two monkeys,

 

[Brent]

Remind me again, what is the Pandorica?

 

[Sci]

Remind me again, what is the Pandorica?

We don't know yet. But apparently it will fall, and it seems probable that it's related to the Cracks.

 

[Brent]

Remind me again, what is the Pandorica?

We don't know yet. But apparently it will fall, and it seems probable that it's related to the Cracks.

Alright, cool, was hoping I hadn't missed something with all the talk about it in this thread....

 

[HappyDayRiot]

Remind me again, what is the Pandorica?

We don't know yet. But apparently it will fall, and it seems probable that it's related to the Cracks.

Not quite. The Pandorica will open, and silence will fall, I believe.

 

[Classic Fan]

Amy was either dreaming of waiting outside for The Doctor as a child and the Tardis materialises outside while she is sleeping, thus her dream younger self looks up in excitment and the older Amy wakes up to The Doctor actually being in her garden, finally.

Or...

The Doctor actaully goes back to Amy in her garden when she was young. He goes back and, in wibbly wobbly timey wimey fashion, Amy has an instant memory implanted due to the Doctors return and wakes up while the tardis is meterialising in present day.

I think she was dreaming in that scene but she was dreaming about the time that the other "older" Doctor came back and told her something she has since forgotten (and only remembers in her dream) and that is why he came back again to Amy in the forest to get her to remember what he told her whilst she was waiting as a 7 year old on her suitcase.

OMG, Dude, thats brilliant.

In that case, if the Doctor went back to Amy when she was in the garden, then surely the whole waiting 12 years thing isnt the case anymore. Unless this is the Doctors way of 'fixing' history by going back and telling Amy something important, something she needs to know to get through the angel in her mind and the defeat it or something that will happen in the future to do with the Angels or the crack in the iniverse or anything that we havnt even seen yet, then quickly leaves and waits for his other past self to arrive at the houe 12 years later.

And the other question is, how long has it been for the Doctor since he last experienced the Angels and the Byzantium? could be minutes/hours/days even years until he gets the chance to go back to Amy when she needs him the most.

Interesting theory though.

 

[Bacl]

The Pandorica will open, and silence will fall

I'm not too worried about it. River remembers it well, meaning everybody lives and the Doctor wins.

But we knew that anyway, anyway.

On an unrelated note: Is anyone else totally annoyed that the angels didn't send anyone back in time? I mean, what's the point of having the weeping angels if they don't send anyone back in time?

 

[davejames]

On an unrelated note: Is anyone else totally annoyed that the angels didn't send anyone back in time? I mean, what's the point of having the weeping angels if they don't send anyone back in time?

Yeah, I have to admit, I was really looking forward to some more trippy time-travel stuff with the Angels, and seeing Amy or River get sent back in time somewhere.

The opening scene in the grassy field really got my hopes up about that, but sadly it was just a hallucination.

 

[Rowan Sjet]

Yeah, this was a fantastic episode, but it would be nice to get back to the core of the Weeping Angels next time we see them, something 'more intimate' as one reviewer I read noted.

 

[Bones2]

The opening scene in the grassy field really got my hopes up about that, but sadly it was just a hallucination.

You'd have thought hallucinagenic lipstick wouldn't make sense, what with a high concentration of it being on her own lips. Must have taken an antidote or something. Or maybe it's the real explanation as to why she thinks she knows the Doctor as well as she does.

And it relies on her ability to get away with kissing a guard too. I mean Alex Kingston's not exactly ugly, but I doubt a guard would just sit back and let her plant one on his lips.