What is your view of Enterprise?

[KottenFutz]

Granted, this is all just my humble opinion and you might think differently about such things. But I am totally cool with that.

So why the obsession? I love it all, by the way.
It interests me. So, why the intrinsic need to proliferate your humble opinion so fiercely over multiple and often redundant threads? It borders on a lovely compulsion, not that you’re the only one in a Trek forum but, how does it serve you? Help me understand the logic in it.

I’m really not trying to be the least bit critical, honestly. I’m fascinated and curious... does this carry into your art? You said you were an artist, and I would love to see your work. Is it on display anywhere on the net? Or posted here someplace?

 

[Yug]

Look, I don't want to fight or debate what I originally stated in my posts. But I never claimed that I was 100% right or that my opinions were not viewpoints. I even acknowledged in my previous post to you: that we both enjoy it in our own unique ways.

Implications go a long way, especially when you seem to infer that "apathetic" viewers are not smart enough to realize the flaws in the show that you deem as its failings, when that's not the case. To say, in your opinion, that they don't appreciate what you are saying means they are not able to understand your "elevated" point of view, is incorrect when in fact they can, but they just don't have the same feeling about it as you do.

Also (IMO), someone can love somebody or something immensely and still be apathetic towards certain aspects of that person or thing. For example: Someone could say that they love their car a great deal, but they really don't care (i.e. apathetic or brainless) about how it runs. So they might have a deep affection for their vehicle but their view on the actual mechanics of what makes it work is not important or an apathetic point of discussion for them.

I don't think this is this example is one of apathy as you use the term. In the car scenario I'm sure the car loving owner does care that it runs well, and for a long time, but it runs good enough that they can see past its issue, especially if they don't have the resources to do much about it. The current state of the engine is simply not a condition to change one's affection for the car. If then, alternatively, they were so concerned with the overall state of the engine that it affected their enjoyment or affection of the car and were equally as powerless to do anything about the situation, and couldn't see past it's problems, then they may not want the car and, therefore, feel no love or affection towards the car. So, they'd probally sell the car... or stop watching the cars TV show.

 

[SFRabid]

... But we are not creating a song or a piece of artwork here.

Actually, we are. Like it or not, screenwriting is a form of art.

... Sure a bit of imagination is going to come in to play. That is natural, but it is also very minor in a case like this. In other words: if imagination over runs the original meaning of what the Trekverse actually is, then it runs more into the camp of Trek fanon than it does Trek canon. ...

....

Ummmm, maybe you didn't realize this, but the Trek Universe ... It's fictional, created from the imaginations of writers. Not scientists. People who took creative writing in college instead of astrological physics. People who studied plot and characters rather than quarks and big bang theories. You want a scientifically accurate and consistent basis of the universe from these people? Sorry buddy. Not going to happen. Even the smartest scientists are not going to deliver in this regard, much less screen writers.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Geez, talk about being misunderstood now matter what a person writes.

Well, all I can say to that is...

Awesome. Simply Awesome!

Side Note:

Anyways, let's get back on topic please. Granted, I admit, I could have probably re-worded my original post better to HR; but this thread is not about attacking me over my intentions in one post. Especially, when I tried to explain it. Also, it is not about imagination vs logic either. So let's please move on.

 

[Luther Sloan]

IMO: I think these last three views are apathetic in regards to Enterprise's canon.

• Is not canon no matter what the studio says.
• Is just a TV show. I really don't care about canon.
• Is a huge mistake. That is best to be forgotten.

And everything else on the list is a fanon viewpoint because each fan is going to come up with his own interpretation of Trek canon in regards to Enterprise.

That is all I was trying to say from the beginning.

Again, this is just my opinion. So please don't take it personally. It is not an attack or a statement of fact. It is just my personal viewpoint.

 

[KottenFutz]

IMO: I think these last three views are apathetic in regards to Enterprise's canon.

• Is not canon no matter what the studio says.
• Is just a TV show. I really don't care about canon.
• Is a huge mistake. That is best to be forgotten.

And everything else on the list is a fanon viewpoint because each fan is going to come up with his own interpretation of Trek canon in regards to Enterprise.

That is all I was trying to say from the beginning.

Again, this is just my opinion. So please don't take it personally. It is not an attack or a statement of fact. It is just my personal viewpoint.

Ok then that's settled, can I see your artwork?

 

[Saquist]

So in conclusion and much reflection again:

What is my view on Enterprise?

Star Trek Enterprise (The entire series) is an official Star Trek prequel that is more than likely a First Contact and Temporal Cold War Time Line.

1. The event of First Contact is confirmed to exist within Enterprise's time line in the episode "Regeneration".

2. The Xindi Attack was brought about by the Sphere Builders who were apart of the Temporal Cold War.

3. Both the events of First Contact and the Xindi Attack continue to exist within the events we seen within Enterprise's time line.

4. Also, the studio has confirmed that all Star Trek TV episodes and films are canon. So the events we seen on Enterprise suggest that things are not in the Original Prime Time Line, but in an Altered Time Line.


What is my view on Enterprise as a Star Trek series?

1. Star Trek Enterprise has the weakest cast.

2. Star Trek Enterprise has some of the worst performances.

3. Star Trek Enterprise has the worst believable setting or things within it's universe.

4. Star Trek Enterprise has a knack for not explaining things that are important.

5. Star Trek Enterprise does have a lot of entertaining episodes. However, you have to turn your brain off sometimes to enjoy them, though.

6. Star Trek Enterprise has helped explained a few mysteries within the Star Trek universe.

7. Star Trek Enterprise gives you the impression that it has a different history than the one that was described to us in the other Trek series.


Is my viewpoint more fanon than canon?

Well, fanon is defined as...

fanon is used to refer to "fan canon" (of which the term is a portmanteau). It applies to certain "facts" that may have been accepted as a truth by a large number of fans, and thus either replaces an established canonical fact in the minds of those fans, or fills a plot-hole.

Well, there is a lack of a proper explanation on part of the TV series itself or the studio on whether or not Enterprise is an Altered Time Line or a part of the Prime Time Line; So this forces Trek fans to come to their own conclusion on what "Star Trek: Enterprise" really was. So no matter which way the fan decides to interpret Enterprise, his interpretation is going to be viewed as fanon and not canon, I suppose.


Sources:

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Xindi_Incident
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Regeneration_(episode)
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Canon

According to Alpha:
The Time Line was reset so then that must mean that ENT isn't a result of the Temporal Cold war.

But then they all retain their memory...so.

 

[SFRabid]

Geez, talk about being misunderstood now matter what a person writes.

...

So now you know how we feel when you keep twisting what we say to something illogical and fannon.

IMO: I think these last three views are apathetic in regards to Enterprise's canon.

• Is not canon no matter what the studio says.
• Is just a TV show. I really don't care about canon.
• Is a huge mistake. That is best to be forgotten.

See. You are still doing it. If I vote that I don't really care about canon it is not apathetic. It means that story and plot and adventure and enjoyment of the show are more important than a sentenced spoken by Spock 150 episodes ago.

And everything else on the list is a fanon viewpoint because each fan is going to come up with his own interpretation of Trek canon in regards to Enterprise.

But isn't that what you are doing? So that would make all the point fanon in your opinion. (Just putting the words back into your mouth that you put into mine.)

That is all I was trying to say from the beginning.

Again, this is just my opinion. So please don't take it personally. It is not an attack or a statement of fact. It is just my personal viewpoint.

That's fine, but the problem is you keep presenting your view as a statement of fact and the opposing view as fannon. It is personnel when you keep presenting your view as the only logical point.

The thing about canon, if you are going to take it, you have to take it all. If you take it all then every series has problems. You cannot pick and choose which points you want to apply and which points "don't really mean anything."

 

[Luther Sloan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVZobzVJrSo

 

[Luther Sloan]

According to Alpha:
The Time Line was reset so then that must mean that ENT isn't a result of the Temporal Cold war.

But then they all retain their memory...so.

Saquist:

Whether you believe in the multiple time lines theory or the fixed time lines theory, there is a theory in time travel that there had to be an Original Time Line that was not yet been altered by time in any way.

If this is true, then it makes sense to assume that there was some type of major technological change within the time line when Picard and his crew influenced Lily and Cochrane in First Contact (Whether it later turned out to be a Predestination Paradox or not).

It is also possible that Enterprise is a result of the Temporal Cold War in addition to the First Contact Time Line, as well. As you stated, they retained their memory of the Xindi Incident (Which was a result of the Temporal Cold War). However, in the episode titled "Home": all of Earth retained there memory of the Xindi Attack and they all still acknowledged that they lost people. Which means that not all of the effects of the TCW were erased completely. The reason for this is that Daniels could have been simply been preserving the time line that Archer was in either because it was too difficult to repair the time line to it's Original state, or that this new time line had more of a positive effect overall to the future time line.

 

[Saquist]

See. You are still doing it. If I vote that I don't really care about canon it is not apathetic. It means that story and plot and adventure and enjoyment of the show are more important than a sentenced spoken by Spock 150 episodes ago.

Actually I did it first and I think the point stands because you can only account for your own vote as to what it means. But the vote itself actually lends to apathy. Especially the way it's worded you can't discount that others didn't look at it that way. Are we just to assume that the everyone loved the show and no one had an apathetic attitude even though there would appear to be an apathetic answer to the poll?

According to Alpha:
The Time Line was reset so then that must mean that ENT isn't a result of the Temporal Cold war.

But then they all retain their memory...so.

Saquist:

Whether you believe in the multiple time lines theory or the fixed time lines theory, there is a theory in time travel that there had to be an Original Time Line that was not yet been altered by time in any way.

If this is true, then it makes sense to assume that there was some type of major technological change within the time line when Picard and his crew influenced Lily and Cochrane in First Contact.

It is also possible that Enterprise is a result of the Temporal Cold War in addition to the First Contact Time Line, as well. As you stated, a major incident (The Xindi Attack) from the Temporal Cold War was not erased from the time line. All of Earth retained there memory of the incident and they all still acknowledged that they lost people. This suggests that Daniels was trying to preserve the time line that Archer was in because it was either too difficult to repair the time line to it's Original state, or that this new time line had more of a positive effect overall to the future time line.

Neither makes much sense.

In the Fixed time Stream there presumes that there is something to go back to in this time Stream. That would imply that the universe is far....far more massive than the visible universe would imply.

Is that the nature of Dark Matter but still....it should be far more massive than that. There can't be anything to travel back too.
----

There is a similar issue with the multiple time streams. They would have to be all connected down to the original stream at some point so the question is how are fully functional universe just created out of nothing.

This is why Time Travel into the past is impossible in our universe

 

[Luther Sloan]

Yes, of course. Both the fictional fixed and multiple time line theories (involving past time travel) presented to us within Star Trek is is not a real thing and would never happen obviously.

However, theoretically speaking if they were to exist...

In a fixed time line theory:

if I travel back in time, I can still travel back to the point in which I left a few seconds later. The future is still going to be there within a fixed time line. And any changes in the time line I made is simply going to ripple or change the events of history as I originally knew it when I got back. I'm simply just traveling to a future that has been altered by me in the past. However, this suggests that a time line has to run it's course as it was originally intended up until the point as if the time travel incident didn't happen yet before the actual time travel incident can actually have an effect on the time line. Which further implies that time must loop at least once or repeat itself (like in Cause in Effect) before the time travel incident can actually have an effect on the time line. In other words, the one loop within the time line or a repeat of it (because of the time travel incident) simply could be the universe's instinctual way of trying to protect itself before it is actually altered. And that is why we don't see any changes in the time line before the actual time travel incident happens.

In a multiple time lines theory:

Just as life magically replicates itself, an entire time line is recreated or duplicated in order to protect any changes to any one particular time line (as the universe's way of protecting itself). People who make the new changes within the time line are simply seeing the old time line disappear. But it actually continues on (or unaltered) unseen or possibly unknown to their knowledge.

Personally, although I am not against a fixed time line theory, I still think Enterprise or Star trek as a whole works best under the multiple time lines theory. In other words: I think Enterprise is some kind of alternate time line that co-exists alongside many other time lines that is a mix of both altered and original (unaltered) time streams.

 

[Saquist]

Yes, of course. Both the fictional fixed and multiple time line theories (involving past time travel) presented to us within Star Trek is is not a real thing and would never happen obviously.

However, theoretically speaking if they were to exist...

In a fixed time line theory:

if I travel back in time, I can still travel back to the point in which I left a few seconds later. The future is still going to be there within a fixed time line. And any changes in the time line I made is simply going to ripple or change the events of history as I originally knew it when I got back. I'm simply just traveling to a future that has been altered by me in the past. However, this suggests that a time line has to run it's course as it was originally intended up until the point as if the time travel incident didn't happen yet before the actual time travel incident can actually have an effect on the time line. Which further implies that time must loop at least once or repeat itself (like in Cause in Effect) before the time travel incident can actually have an effect on the time line. In other words, the one loop within the time line or a repeat of it (because of the time travel incident) simply could be the universe's instinctual way of trying to protect itself before it is actually altered. And that is why we don't see any changes in the time line before the actual time travel incident happens.

In a multiple time lines theory:

Just as life magically replicates itself, an entire time line is recreated or duplicated in order to protect any changes to any one particular time line (as the universe's way of protecting itself). People who make the new changes within the time line are simply seeing the old time line disappear. But it actually continues on (or unaltered) unseen or possibly unknown to their knowledge.

Personally, although I am not against a fixed time line theory, I still think Enterprise or Star trek as a whole works best under the multiple time lines theory. In which case: I think Enterprise is some kind of alternate time line that co-exists alongside many other time lines (both altered and unaltered by time).

I think it depends on the nature of the Travel through Time.

Normal everyday Time Travel into the future simply involves approaching the speed of light or even exceeding it causing time to relatively travel foward ahead on your own time stream. This is nothing more than r/d=T (Time +1)

Well in Star Trek traveling around the sun produced an opposite Time Effect.

One reasons that if traveling in a "straight" line matching or (catching up with the accelerating speed of the universe) causes time to move forward rapidly then opposing that acceleration would cause Backward Time Travel.

Objects in real space/Time that oppose the universe's forward acceleration are massive gravitational objects like planets, Stars and Blackholes. Close to their surfaces time actually slows down in an isolated area of the universe or even stops.

I deduce that if one travels a circular course at either far faster than the speed of light or using a highly energetic Gravitational Force one would travel back in time on your current time stream.

(Any use of dimensional shifting would be traveling out side your time stream)

Dimensional shifting could be hard to define.
But using Vortex's or dimensional gates could be a sign of Shifting Dimensional Time and leaving your current time stream.

In other words.
Star Trek IV: Current Time Stream
Star Trek First Contact: Dimensional Time Stream both the return and arrival

DS9: Trials and Tribulations Local or Current Time Stream
VOY: Futures end: Dimensional Time Stream
ENT: Temporal Cold War: Dimensional Time Stream...

So on and so on...

 

[Luther Sloan]

Wow. I think your on to something here. In fact, I kind of like it.

So we now have the belief in time travel on Star Trek as...

1. A Fixed Time Line Theory (Only)

2. A Multiple Time Lines Theory (Only)

3. Both A Fixed Time Line and A Multiple Time Lines Theory.


Totally cool. Well, great contribution to how we can look at Enterprise and or Star Trek as a whole.

Thanks man!

 

[Saquist]

Interesting....

I looked at the episodes that involved Dimensional Shifting and that would mean based also on Voyager: Future End when Braxton attempted to use a beam to push Voyager out it's space time then....

VOY: Year of Hell was..both Dimensional Shifting and Local Time Travel.

By pushing certain elements out of this Local Time Stream it caused ripple effects. BUT things that were forced out of this Local Time Stream end up Dimensional Time Shifting to another Time Stream.

Dimensional Rifts would be included which would mean that the USS Bozeman was from a different Time Stream...

And Ultimatly the Admiral Janeway was also from a completely Different Time Stream aswell from End Game and Harry Kim and Chakotay were from a Different Time Stream effecting our current Time Stream.

You know I do like this too. It explains all these parallel futures very well.

 

[Luther Sloan]

I am not sure if all Dimensional Time Rifts (or shifts) would be from another separate diverging time stream. I believe that some time rifts or certain shifting can also be from your own time stream, too. Like in Yesterday's Enterprise: The Enterprise C goes through the time rift and changed their very own time line.

I think that when there isn't a noticeable change or any indication that the event ever happened when the time traveler(s) gets back to his (or their) own time (like in First Contact), it is usually a safe bet to assume that it might be Dimensional Time Shifting (that was either a recently created diverging time line or was from a completely separate time stream all together).

Granted, First Contact has been labeled as a Predestination Paradox, but maybe the term isn't just applied to a fixed time line but to diverging or multiple time lines.

But yeah, I would agree that the USS Bozeman is from another diverging (separate) time line. After, the time loop ended, there were no noticeable changes to the time line during or after the Enterprise encountered her.

 

[Saquist]

I am not sure if all Dimensional Time Rifts (or shifts) would be from another separate diverging time stream. I believe that some time rifts or certain shifting can also be from your own time stream, too. Like in Yesterday's Enterprise: The Enterprise C goes through the time rift and changed their very own time line.

I've thought about that occasion as well.
According to Star Trek VI the Federation had only 50 years to evacuate the Klingon Home world before the atmosphere disapated. They literally said the Klingon Empire has but 50 years of life left to it. Well, the next year are the Events of Narendra III in which the Enterprise C is destroyed defending a Klingon colony.

Note the Effects only 20 years later from the Time displacement of the Enterprise C. The Enterprise D is battling for their lives in a LOSING War with the Klingons.

Now...where did the Klingons get the resources to fight the Federation if they had only 50 years of life left and had lost a key energy production facility?

Minor inconsistencies in events could indicate that these Klingon Ent-D was fighting were from a Dimensional Shift. Oddly the Ent-D we saw was not the correct Local Time Stream. (at least apparently)

General West said if the Klingons wanted fight they could clean their chronometers.

Granted, First Contact has been labeled as a Predestination Paradox, but maybe the term isn't just applied to a fixed time line but to diverging or multiple time lines.

Logically and scientifically speaking there is a way that a rift in space time could lead back to the same time stream. A wormhole. Wormholes have been though (under special relativity) to be capable of being accelerated at one end and the opposite appeature would always lead back to the originally accelerated time.

That is why I think Trials and Tribulations was a Local Time Stream Event. Obviously because of the Prophets who created the Celestial Temple.

But yeah, I would agree that the USS Bozeman is from another diverging (separate) time line. After, the time loop ended, there were no noticeable changes to the time line during or after the Enterprise encountered her.

This could really iron out alot of Trek canon problems.

 

[Luther Sloan]

I've thought about that occasion as well.
According to Star Trek VI the Federation had only 50 years to evacuate the Klingon Home world before the atmosphere disapated. They literally said the Klingon Empire has but 50 years of life left to it. Well, the next year are the Events of Narendra III in which the Enterprise C is destroyed defending a Klingon colony.

Note the Effects only 20 years later from the Time displacement of the Enterprise C. The Enterprise D is battling for their lives in a LOSING War with the Klingons.

Now...where did the Klingons get the resources to fight the Federation if they had only 50 years of life left and had lost a key energy production facility?

Minor inconsistencies in events could indicate that these Klingon Ent-D was fighting were from a Dimensional Shift. Oddly the Ent-D we saw was not the correct Local Time Stream. (at least apparently)

General West said if the Klingons wanted fight they could clean their chronometers.

Saquist:

I don't know, there are many plausible unknown reasons that could have explained the Klingons rise to power in the altered future time line.

Also, the change of the time line was a result of the Enterprise C disappearing into rift to the future. If the Enterprise C traveled to a separate alternate time line, we wouldn't see any instant changes to the time line. Unless of course it is a diverging future time stream.

However, Guinan does get a feeling that this time line is not supposed to exist, though. If she had an awareness of multiple alternate time lines from this incident, then she would probably be a bit thrown off her game a bit. But seeing the time rift seems more like a temporal worm hole within a fixed time line, she does easily recognize the difference of how things should originally be (which prompts her to voice her opinion to the Captain).

Now, that is not to say that the Klingons didn't come from other dimensional rifts in the future. It is of course in the realm of possibility. However, I still personally believe this incident is a temporal worm whole event within a fixed time line, though.

Granted, First Contact has been labeled as a Predestination Paradox, but maybe the term isn't just applied to a fixed time line but to diverging or multiple time lines.

Logically and scientifically speaking there is a way that a rift in space time could lead back to the same time stream. A wormhole. Wormholes have been though (under special relativity) to be capable of being accelerated at one end and the opposite appeature would always lead back to the originally accelerated time.

That is why I think Trials and Tribulations was a Local Time Stream Event. Obviously because of the Prophets who created the Celestial Temple.

Yes. Of course. I like the terminology, too.
Oh, and I totally agree with you on Trials and Tribble-ations being a Local Time Stream Event, too.

In fact, the investigation by Temporal Investigations is a pretty good indication that they were concerned about changes within their own time line, too.

This could really iron out alot of Trek canon problems.

Indeed. You gotta love time travel, my friend.

 

[KottenFutz]

I'm falling in love with you guys!!

(I ain't kiddin' )

 

[Saquist]

Saquist:

I don't know, there are many plausible unknown reasons that could have explained the Klingons rise to power in the altered future time line.

Also, the change of the time line was a result of the Enterprise C disappearing into rift to the future. If the Enterprise C traveled to a separate alternate time line, we wouldn't see any instant changes to the time line. Unless of course it is a diverging future time stream.

You are correct of course.
Like in sliders it seems though that you have to be keen at detecting the inconsistency in the Time Stream. Any temporal event will effect the Local Stream.

When I look at Lieutenant Yar I ask myself. Where did she come from. Did she step through an aperture from the past into the future. That would definitely be a Local Time Stream Event. No. She was from another time line...where she never died.

What cause this confluence?
The show says...a convergence of energy weapons.
I thought to myself "In battle" this must happen all the time what was special about this convergence? Apparently nothing. Only that in this area of the continuum was an "intersection" of time lines and this energy event at the right place and the right time "Opened" a rift from one Time Line to another.

The reasoning here is simply...the theory: It must take more energy to bridge space/time in a Local Time Stream than the variable energy it must take to reach a "touching" or nearby Time Line. A disrupter and phaser crossing must have been only a catalyst.

That is my explanation if I were to write it in the dialogue.

However, Guinan does get a feeling that this time line is not supposed to exist, though. If she had an awareness of multiple alternate time lines from this incident, then she would probably be a bit thrown off her game a bit. But seeing the time rift seems more like a temporal worm hole within a fixed time line, she does easily recognize the difference of how things should originally be (which prompts her to voice her opinion to the Captain).

I think the fact that the Time line was interrupted was enough to alert Guinan. As to why I don't know. I could make guesses based on my guesses but there simply isn't enough supporting information about what exactly she senses. At this point I don't have a clue.

Now, that is not to say that the Klingons didn't come from other dimensional rifts in the future. It is of course in the realm of possibility. However, I still personally believe this incident is a temporal worm whole event within a fixed time line, though.

It's possible:
Consider this Scenario.
Enterprise C engages 3 to 4 War Birds and destroys one. The core of this War Bird rupturs in Enterprise C's path and space time rupture is exaterbated by Enterprise firing and recieving fire from another Warbird that was trailing the lead ship which was destroyed. A Local Time Stream Rift was created as a result and in the instant was transported forward into the future...

As interesting as this possibility is. I have to note it doesn't explain the considerable strength of the Empire (Klingon) in the altered Local Time Stream.

To me that's a big problem because this Time Stream notes not just one attack of the Romulans against the Klingons in our Local Time Stream.

- Narendra III
- Kithomer Massacre

An interesting correlation.

Yes. Of course. I like the terminology, too.
Oh, and I totally agree with you on Trials and Tribble-ations being a Local Time Stream Event, too.

In fact, the investigation by Temporal Investigations is a pretty good indication that they were concerned about changes within their own time line, too.

Now that is an interesting question:
Does the Temporal Investigators get involved with every time event or only Local Time Stream Events? I bet they review all. These guys might become the same agency that launches the Relativity 500 years into the future.

The analysis of the Time Line that VOY shows implies LTSE. Cleaning up the time line. But this might explain why we don't see them cleaning everything up or it might just mean they are safe guarding the Federation and that some actions are justified such as Voyage Home and End Game....

who knows.