What is your view of Enterprise?

[Hopeful Romantic]

You are being pushy, Luther Sloan. If your objective is to present an opinion without it being challenged, you might consider starting a blog and turning off the comments feature.

This is a discussion board. We welcome different opinions. They help to keep discussions interesting and enlightening. Variety makes the world go round.

You have expressed your opinions here and in other threads. There will be people who disagree with you. Let them. There's no need to keep posting links to this or that previous post of yours, somewhere else on the board, over and over again. If you have something new or substantive to offer, that's great; otherwise, kindly refrain from spamming up the thread.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Well, let's see. I woke up today and had a new view of Enterprise. I now want to eat the show like chocolate I love it so much. I don't want to think about all the calories or the sugar. It is just addictively awesome.

In fact, it came to me in a dream. Really! I was on board the ship and was pushing the buttons and firing the phase cannons. And feeding cheese to Porthos. It was great!

 

[SFRabid]

While I worry a bit about calories and sugar I still enjoy my chocolate in moderation. It is good that you can enjoy chocolate without being obsessed with the sugar and calorie counts. Obsession can ruin a good thing.

Hmmm. Chocolate Enterprise. I wonder if anyone makes those?

 

[Luther Sloan]

Ha, ha, ha... yeah. Ironically someone has created a chocolate Enterprise. However, I haven't found a place that sells them, unfortunately. On the other hand, you could contact http://www.chocolatvadeboncoeur.com/eng/index.html about it, though.

Anyways, if your curious still, here are some more images of chocolate & candy starships ect...

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc75/jasonmuzie/New Album/02choco.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc75/jasonmuzie/New Album/04choco.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc75/jasonmuzie/New Album/06candy3.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc75/jasonmuzie/New Album/00chocolatetrek.jpg

And here is some Star Trek fragrances, just in case the chocolates doesn't work as a gift for your loved one...

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc75/jasonmuzie/New Album/Trekperfume.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc75/jasonmuzie/New Album/07Cologne.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc75/jasonmuzie/New Album/08Cologne.jpg

 

[Luther Sloan]

But if that's the case, then what happened to the already existing Enterprise E of that timeline? Did they too also end up going back in time but failed in their mission, thus only one Enterprise E existing when they come back?

Praxius:

Yes. The other Enterprise E failed in their mission and didn't make it back to their own time line. So another Enterprise E had filled the gap by returning. This means that the time stream has some type of built in self correcting function (that tries to minimize any type of damage to a particular time line (if possible)). Think of the time line as one giant collection of streams or rivers that are all interconnected. Some are so far apart from one another that they seem almost separate. And other time lines are within it's own river or stream. So, seeing the time stream is all interconnected, it is a possiblility that it might have some self correcting (or healing) functions to it (like a normal body has).

Furthermore, I believe that the time line also protects itself by creating time loops, too (like in Cause and Effect). As an example: in Back to Future or any other time travel movie that seemingly proposes to alter events within their own time line. If I travel back in time and change my own past and start to erase my own existence (like in Back to the Future), then how come the original time line up until the point of the actual time travel incident still exists (which is usually the events we see at the beginning of the film)? Well, my theory on fictional time travel is that whenever you time travel within your own time line, you create a feedback loop or a repeat of time. That is why we are allowed to see the original time line unfold before it is changed (by the time travel incident). I mean, you kind of have to look at time as if it has already happened. We are just looking back at all the alternate possibilities and changes that were made to that time line. And the infinite loop theory helps to suggest that we are allowed to see those changes.

Unless of course your a firm believer in the multi-verse time theory only. In which all time lines simply duplicate and diverge into separate time lines that are different or separate from the original or local time line.

The problem I find with them returning to their current time but a different reality, is that there's a chance that the reality they are entering has an Enterprise that never went back in time, thus two ships, two crews.... as the other Enterprise could have stopped the sphere before it went back in time, or the Borg may never have attacked in the first place.... then suddenly zoop.... hey where'd this ship come from? we got two Enterprises now.

As mentioned before: perhaps under the right circumstances the time line makes the necessary adjustments to guide a traveler to where they need to be.

However, that doesn't mean that things can't go wrong and duplicate Enterprises can't all encounter one another at some point (like in the TNG episode "Parallels").

As I personally see it, in order for it all to make sense, those who go back in time and return to their present with no noticeable changes did exactly what they were supposed to do all along..... otherwise, they came back to the present, altered the past, even so-slightly, and their futures would be different in some noticeable manner..... such as Sisko going back to pose as Gabriel Bell and then his photo being used throughout history..... his future, as proven through the continuing episodes afterwards, that he was always meant to do what he did and that there were no other noticeable changes.

The time loop (Which is a defense mechanism of the time stream) allows the original or previous time line to happen before it is altered. In other words, the time stream loops once as a normal reaction whenever a change is made. So two incidents to the same event can have two different ways of happening (if a change is made).

The real brain kicker is if while Picard and Crew were always meant to go back in time and set this complicated ball in motion.... based on NX-01 Enterprise suddenly being mentioned in the Star Trek Universe..... we're we seeing the very first loop of this timeline that was supposed to always exist and thus, was the timeline we were always viewing through all the other shows an incomplete ghost timeline going through it's first pass?
In other words, if this whole situation was the result of a predestination paradox which is an ever continuing loop over an extended period of time that binds both eras together.... then we saw the very first creation of this timeline through First Contact.

Well, there is a theory in time travel that proposes that there had to be an original time line that had not been altered by time yet.

But to answer your question... yes. Picard and crew were meant to change things in First Contact from the very beginning. However, because the time stream creates one time loop (of the unaltered time line) as a defense mechanism before the change can happen, we see the original or previous time line unaltered before the actual time travel incident takes place.

So...

When we watch...

1. The Original Series & It's Movies
2. Next Generation & Generations
3. Deep Space Nine (Before First Contact)
4. Voyager (Before First Contact)

We are witnessing the first loop (an echo if you will) of the Original Unaltered time line before it is changed in the time travel incident in First Contact.

So...

After First Contact....

We are seeing a re-creation of a different past when we watch...

1. Star Trek Enterprise

And when we watch...

1. Insurrection & Nemesis
2. Deep Space Nine (episodes after First Contact)
3. Voyager (episodes after First Contact)

We are seeing things from the perspective that it may be...

1. A Fixed or Repaired Time Line (Probably from the Future Temporal Agency)
2. A Similar But Separate Diverging Time Line

It is not the NX-01 Enterprise that's part of an alternate timeline..... everything we have seen up to first contact was part of an incomplete, 1st stage timeline

Enterprise's 22nd Century was too advanced to the way the 22nd Century was described to us in the other series. So, seeing the show started out with the Temporal Cold War mumbo jumbo it is pretty clear that we are looking at an altered time line. However, you would be correct that everything up until the point of First Contact (TOS - TNG - Generations - DS9 (Pre First Contact) - VOY (Pre First Contact)) is an incomplete 1st stage (original) time line, though.

which would also explain why the TOS era no longer matches anything close to the 2009 movie era.... where Spock and Nero going back in time was the final nail in the coffin from that previous timeline solidifying the current timeline the ST Universe is now following.

Some fans have thought this new timeline in the new 2009 Star Trek film as writing over or erasing the original (or ‘prime’) timeline. However in interviews with TrekMovie (and others), as well as in multiple online discussions, writer Roberto Orci has made it clear that in their Star Trek universe, the incursions of Nero and Spock created an alternate timeline, which will coexist (separately) with the ‘prime’ timeline (not unlike the ‘Mirror Universe’).

*head explodes*

*Put's pieces of head back together and gets Borg nanites to repair the damage*

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Enterprise is a prequel to Trek... If it were an alternate timeline, they'd have told us.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Enterprise is a prequel to Trek... If it were an alternate timeline, they'd have told us.

PH:

Well, some things are not always spelled out for us.
Here is a list I came up with, that makes it pretty clear, though...

1. Spock specifically stated in TOS "Balance of Terror" that there was no visual ship to ship communication (no view screens) and that Earth used primitive vessels with primitive atomic (nuclear based) type weapons in the Earth Romulan War.

2. Between the Enterprise D computer, Scotty, Sisko, and two temporal investigation agents: the NX-01 is not mentioned as being a significant Enterprise or starship, even though it was a rather important ship in helping to form the Federation (Regardless if the NX-01 was a Federation ship or not).

3. In TOS "Balance of Terror", Spock and Kirk are both surprised when they see the Romulan ship's cloaking technology. Spock theorizes about the requirements needed for this technology seeing it is the first time he has seen (or gained knowledge of) something like this. Yet, on "Enterprise" we see a Romulan ship de-cloak right before Archer's eyes.

4. In TNG's TV episode titled "First Contact", Picard mentions to the ambassador that "first contact" with Klingons led to decades of war, which eventually led Starfleet to do surveillance of new alien cultures or worlds before making "first contact". But in ENT's "Broken Bow" there was no indication that "first contact" went bad in any way.

5. In TOS's "Turnabout Intruder", Janice Lester states to Kirk that... "Your world of Starship Captains doesn't admit women". Many folks think that Janice was talking about Kirk leaving her to be a Captain. However, Kirk later said that Lester tortured and punished him over the fact that his world of Starship Captains doesn't admit women. How can Janice punish Kirk if he left her?

6. In TNG's "A Matter of Time", Worf stated that there were no phasers in the 22nd Century. Yet we see phase pistols that closely resemble phasers in Archer's era. In the episode, the time traveler was asking what was the most "important" examples of progress in the last 200 years to Commander Riker. He was not asking for subtle changes within history. He was asking for significant changes within history.

7. You will note that Riker says in ENT's "These Are The Voyages" that he is ready to talk to Captain Picard now after his little holodeck lesson. So he then walks out of the holodeck with Troi and the camera zooms out to show the Enterprise D in the asteroid field. However, Riker never went to Picard and revealed the truth about the secret he was carrying. Riker was convinced to reveal the truth to Picard only when the Romulans trapped the Enterprise inside the asteroid (where the starship Pegasus was).

8. Star Trek: Enterprise starts off with a Temporal Cold War. Suggesting that there was another time line before this one.

9. The Xindi Incident was never supposed to have happened. Again, this suggests that there was a time line that we had not seen before (that went unaltered).

10. The Temporal Cold War comes to an end and the time line resets itself, however, the Xindi Incident had not been erased, for some reason though. (This suggests that the changed time line continues on).

11. If Cochrane in the Original Series episode titled "Metamorphosis" was indeed from the First Contact time line, then he would have said something about how he ran into another crew from a starship named Enterprise. This suggests that this Original Series episode was unaffected by the First Contact time travel incident. Which would mean that the series called "Star Trek: Enterprise" exists within the changes made by First Contact (in other words it would be an altered time line).

12. Star Trek: Enterprise is supposed to be 200 years in Picard's past. Just looking at the ship and crew, does it really look that much different than a ship and crew in the 24th Century? They still have phasers, transporters, and the same looking ship design. You'd think there would have been some kind of change in all that time.

 

[Praxius]

Good points... as I mentioned in another thread, I feel that TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager were all from the first round of the time paradox which was created by Picard and crew going back to first contact and they & borg muck everything all up, thus when ST:Enterprise starts, it is the second round-timeline (where the time paradox actually begins)..... then later through Nero and Spock going back in time, they again further contaminate the timeline from a very similar and slightly modified timeline, to a completely screwed up new timeline that wipes out everything we know of TOS/TNG/DS9/Voyager and starts anew......

..... however without the TOS/TNG/DS9 & Voyager timeline and all those events occurring as they did, we wouldn't have the current timeline the ST universe is existing in today.

It is a bit of a logical stretch, but it to me is the best explanation that answers just about every angle in order to justify the NX-01's existence and the technological advances that occurred, when before they never did.

Picard and crew explaining things to Cochrane and Lily, like what he was about to do, what it will lead to, exposing them to the borg, phasers, tricorders, force fields, holodecks, transporters and the concept of the Federation/Starfleet..... etc.... all exposed them to knowing that these things are eventually possible and probably saved humanity some time in developing and testing these things (focused scientists and inventors of the time in the right direction so to speak, rather then fumbling towards these technologies on their own as they originally did)

Thus that could explain why things seem more advanced..... even though I hate the idea, it is the most.... logical.

Then again, maybe the timeline was altered due to humanity having a long lasting TV series called star trek that introduced us all to this type of future, created much of the technology we take for granted, and thus, Star Trek: Enterprise is the real timeline, as opposed to the fake timeline of the Star Trek saga.....

.... now there's a head scratcher.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

9. The Xindi Incident was never supposed to have happened.

That line always annoyed me. Since when is anything supposed to happen?

Most of the other stuff is surely just retcons and continuity errors?

 

[Freid]

It was fantastic and should never have been cut!

 

[Michael]

12. Star Trek: Enterprise is supposed to be 200 years in Picard's past. Just looking at the ship and crew, does it really look that much different than a ship and crew in the 24th Century? They still have phasers, transporters, and the same looking ship design. You'd think there would have been some kind of change in all that time.

I think it's also worth noting that Enterprise is a television series produced 20 years after that show with Picard. I'd say we can safely ascribe all alleged discrepancies to that fact.

 

[SPCTRE]

I voted "flawless" in the Core Trek Timeline because its flaws are not any greater than the rest of Trek.

I think that's a sensible attitude. Still, I went with "fits somewhat". For one thing, the (kind of unavoidable) fact that the technology looks too advanced IMHO rules out a flawless fit within the greater canon.

 

[tomalak301]

Much like the rest of the franchise, it's a TV show and I treat it as such. There are so many continuity glitches and goofs in the overall franchise that isn't it already messed up? How many alternate timelines were there if we follow the basic rules of time travel (Which I thought were summed up nicely in Back to the Future II)? As long as the show is good and they make an effort to fit things in as best they can, I really don't care.

 

[jgdst]

I voted "flawless" in the Core Trek Timeline because its flaws are not any greater than the rest of Trek.

I think that's a sensible attitude. Still, I went with "fits somewhat". For one thing, the (kind of unavoidable) fact that the technology looks too advanced IMHO rules out a flawless fit within the greater canon.

Much like the rest of the franchise, it's a TV show and I treat it as such. There are so many continuity glitches and goofs in the overall franchise that isn't it already messed up? How many alternate timelines were there if we follow the basic rules of time travel (Which I thought were summed up nicely in Back to the Future II)? As long as the show is good and they make an effort to fit things in as best they can, I really don't care.

That sums up my opinion precisely (even though I did choose 'flawless fit').

The only bit that causes a bit of a headache for me is the TCW and the Xindi attack, but after all is said and done, they're part of a great number of episodes and a story I enjoyed. It's that one line from Daniels about the Xindi attack not happening that makes everything difficult If not for that, I think they would've got away with it. (That, and maybe not introducing photonic torpedoes so quickly because of Spock's line about the Romulan War)

I think you have to expect a bit of retconning and flexibility with a prequel and Star Trek on the whole wasn't new to the idea anyway.

Regarding Regeneration, I think it proved why it is part of canon, rather than not. E-E goes back, stops the Borg, NX-01 finds the Borg, they contact the Delta Quadrant, and we meet the Borg in Q Who. Circle completed. If the E-E had made any major impact to the timeline, then they would've returned to a totally different 'present' at the end of First Contact. Judging by DS9 and Insurrection, that obviously wasn't the case. That is to say, it had already happened, and it was going to happen regardless.

At any rate, I enjoy the series and I don't have a problem viewing it as coming before Kirk's era. Just to use it as a comparison, not as a reason to stir things, I have a harder time trying to rationalise Trek XI than I do Enterprise (regardless of alternate timelines ).

 

[Praxius]

One thing I'd like to bring up at this point is Archer. While I've still only seen the first series (going through the first one a second time now) and while I have heard Archer evolves a lot by the last season, I am still not sure how to view his character.

I mean there's a lot of situations where he seems quite clueless at the consequences of his actions/decisions and while they do set up for a good moral lesson he will remember (as well as the viewer) and while I understand he hasn't watched TOS/TNG/DS9 or Voy to know why not to do something in particular like the average viewer would...... some of his compassionate "I got to save everybody and everything because we're Gods" attitude seems a tad on the unbelievable side of things.

I mean sure, I understand wanting to stick it to the Vulcans and try and prove yourself to everybody watching, but hell, he's had starfleet training, he's older then I am, yet he's not mature enough to suck up some pride without being told to?

Just look at all the times he shot T'Pol's suggestions or requests down and the time when she basically had to drag him by his arse to ask the vulcans for assistance on the episode of the big ice comet.

I mean he brags about how humanity has apparently evolved and become better people, all unified and such..... yet shows more unprofessionalism and immaturity when it comes to his personal feelings towards the Vulcans then you'd see from someone in his position in today's time.

Say you were going to represent your country to other countries in the world and try to smooth relations..... but you got a hate-on for the British because your father had a bad past with them and they seem snotty and uppity to you every time you meet them..... do you think based on your position that your personal feelings should be that infringe'ant on your professional responsibilities to those you represent?

Anyways, I am sure his character does evolve a lot over the next couple of seasons, the above is just my current observations which I am sure will change.

I do like his attitude he seems to have every time he meets a new ship or alien species.... or when he has to do a speech thing for one of the schools back home (ie: the Poop question)

During these events, he sorta seems like he never got any real training on how to do any of this.... like he's just winging it.

"To the Alien vessel ahead of us..... this is Captain Johnathan Archer of the Starship Enterprise....."

*no response for an awkward amount of time and Archer begins to fidget*

".... um.... we.... noticed your ship has some damage, I was wondering if you'd like some assistance....."

*no response for an awkward amount of time and Archer begins to feel like an idiot*

*Archer looks at the viewer all squinty-eyed*

"...... We.... could... have a shuttle over there with a repair crew in just a few minutes if you like...."

*no response for an awkward amount of time and Archer makes a Porthos Puzzled facial expression with tilted head at the viewer*

"..... Trip, T'Pol..... go send a team over there in a shuttle to invade their privacy......."

 

[lankyknight1990]

Star Trek Enterprise didnt feel like a star trek thing until season 3. One and two were good, just not trek. Once season 3 got going though I couldn't get enough of it, I was like a kid in a lolly store. But i hated the ending damn you Cmdr Tucker!!! why did you have to be a hero lol.

 

[Whill]

Introduction & Basic Time Travel Definitions

I love discussions of time travel! Great thread.

Preface 1: I should note up front that most of my experience with Trek is TOS, TAS, TNG, Enterprise and the movies. I admit that I have not seen most of the time travel episodes of DS9 and Voyager.

Preface 2: Also, I feel that some of your perspectives are a bit skewed by your point of view of the stories, which often comes from the way the story is presented, the point of view of the main characters and the order the stories were released in, instead of the "chronological" sequence of events (see below posts). I may be able to help here. However this is only my opinion, my personal view. There are of course no right or wrong personal opinions regarding the fictional temporal mechanics of entertainment franchise!

Let's first define time travel. Forward is the normal direction of time. Time travel forward in time is always happening, not only when moving close to the speed of light. Technically, from a space-time continuum perspective, we are all time travelers because we are always traveling forward in time, at the rate of 1 second per second. So, for the purpose of this discussion, by default "time travel" involves traveling backwards in time. (Time travel stories usually, but not always, include a reverse trip back to the time the travelers came from.) Even in a trip to the future, there is usually time travel back which makes it a time travel story. If the travel is only one way into the future, whether through relativistic time dilation (time passing at slower rate for the traveler compared to the outside universe), or by just skipping over some time and appearing in the future, then that really isn't a time travel story per se. But most stories we would discuss here involve backwards time travel of some kind anyway.

“Original timeline” is a term used to designate the timeline that exists in a story before time travel changes it, so therefore “New timeline” or “altered timeline” designates one that results from time travel alterations. “Alternate timeline” is a very common term used in and describing Trek time travel stories. Alternate usually refers to a timeline that ends up getting eliminated over the course of the story. It could be a story in which the original timeline is changed to an alternate one, only to later be changed again to closely resemble the original one. Or it could be in a story that starts out in which the original timeline changes to a new timeline, with the original one retroactively being referred to as the alternate timeline.

…

 

[Whill]

Star Trek Time Travel Inconsistencies & Predestination

Time travel has not been handled consistently throughout the massive Trek franchise. With so many writers and different story needs, there was no way to expect that and overall, I am ok with that. I just assume that the rules of time travel may vary depending on the method of time travel and other particular circumstances because [insert Treknobabble here]. That's part of what makes this such an interesting and complex discussion.

The "predestination" time travel is less interesting one for me, but I think it is also the less common one in the franchise. You can still have a good dramatic story with it, but it is kind of a letdown because the time travelers usually find out that they didn't do anything to change history. They were instead a part of history. The time travel in the past from the present/future was already a part of the timeline that the traveler comes from before traveling to the past. That serves to makes personal free will an illusion, meaning that we can never really change anything or choose to do anything, because it was already destined to happen, including our choice to travel through time. That idea in general leaves a sour feeling in my stomach.

An example of that I can immediately recall is TNG "Time's Arrow" where they had found Data's head that had been buried on Earth in the past, indicating that sometime in his future he would go back and leave his head there. And that is exactly what happened. And Samuel Clemens left 1893 to reappeared later in timeline in 2369, but history hadn't changed by his sudden absence because he was destined in the story to go back and live out his life. These less common predestination examples of Trek time travel don't make the questions of the OP impossible to answer, but I felt it was worth mentioning for contrast to the more common type of time travel which is more relevant to the issue.

…

 

[Whill]

Classic Time Travel, The Voyage Home & Yesterday’s Enterprise

Now on to what I call "classic time travel". Where things can be changed. These stories often take the form of the protagonists unintentionally being sent backwards in time, changing something, and then have to “fix” or “repair” the timeline to get things back on track to their history before returning to their own time. Another variation is that antagonists want to change something and protagonists go back with them to prevent the changes, protect their timeline or otherwise repair the “damage” to the timeline before returning to their own time. There is also the variation in which a future version of a protagonist goes back intentionally to change things, to right a wrong. And there’s also the case where after things have changed, whether by choice or not, the traveler doesn’t return to his original time. There are other variations, but none of these classic time travel scenarios have to involve predestination.

Technically, even the most minute changes to the timeline create a new altered timeline. An important issue for this discussion is, whether the timeline is altered significantly or not. Will the alterations still result a sequence of events that are generally history as his time remembers it and lead the traveler to go back in time as he did in the first place? If so, the timeline can be thought of as “repaired” but it is still technically a “new,” or “altered” timeline because events happened slightly differently as a result of the incursion from the future into the past of the original timeline.

Kirk: "We are going to attempt time-travel. We are computing our trajectory at this time..."

For an specific case of this idea, let’s look at The Voyage Home. The time travel was intentional to get humpback whales whose species was extinct and yet needed to save Earth in the 23rd century. When they return to the future, how much had they really altered in the past? IIRC, the novelization suggests that in the original timeline existing before Kirk’s arrival from the future, cetacean biologist Gillian Taylor committed suicide or died in a reckless car accident as a result of her anguish caused by the whales being released without her saying goodbye then their radio transmitters indicating they had been hunted and killed. So after the alteration, history records her as an unsolved missing person case instead. That works. Dr. McCoy gave an old women with dialysis a pill and she grew a new kidney, but perhaps the pill was not detectable so it was just viewed as an inexplicable miracle healing. She undoubtedly enjoyed a better life and perhaps even a longer one, but that doesn’t necessarily have to impact the timeline as we know it leading to Kirk’s 23rd century that we know. Scotty was actually aware that Dr. Nichols was indeed the man credited for inventing the formula for transparent aluminum, so in the altered timeline Nichols just acquired the formula a little sooner. And maybe Nichols originally came upon a more developed matrix of it by accident, so in the altered timeline having the formula early might not have changed when the finished product actually became available. Despite the radiation interference, the Klingon phaser that the US agent had confiscated from Chekov could have still been set to self-destruct both itself and the communicator, leaving no futuristic alien technology behind. Maybe in both timelines, the whale ship hit a bad storm and sunk before ever getting back to port, so either way the whales and the whalers were gone in 1986. Sure, there’s a lot of chance in all that, but fiction in general has a large element of chance in the stories, and the time traveling characters probably felt that whether they changed things or not, humpback whales would still eventually become extinct before the 23rd century, and the alien whale probe would still arrive and destroy all life on Earth if there weren’t any whales there to respond to it.

And in 2286 of the altered timeline, Kirk and his crew still traveled back in time to close the loop and start the cycle anew. This is where it starts to resemble the predestination time travel because in the second cycle, the characters from the altered timeline would (unknowingly) be fulfilling their roles established by the original timeline characters in creating the altered timeline they came from. The altered-timeline time travelers still have free will, but since they are virtually identical to their original timeline versions in identical circumstances, they makes all the same choices. So this is still not predestination time travel because there originally was a slightly different timeline without the incursion into the past that initiated the causality loop.

Some of the predestination time travel stories could be re-explained by considering them as not showing us the original loop. Perhaps there was a slightly different timeline that initiated the time travel, and we are seeing a subsequent loop. Perhaps there are even multiple timeline loops that all vary with each other until an unchanging one is finally established. This idea is further complicated with respect to some stories where time travelers realize they seem to be a part of the history they knew. (Anyone getting a headache yet?)

Specifically in the “Time’s Arrow” example above, maybe there was an original timeline in which Data went back in time without them finding his head first? But then the problem with this remains in any loop that has Samuel Clemens leaving his time for the 24th century without history then changing to a timeline in which there were no Mark Train novels past 1893. In the produced episode, they refer to the problem that would incur if Clemens didn’t get returned to his own time, meaning that 2369 still knew of the timeline in which Clemens hadn’t disappeared in 1893 which gave them the knowledge that they had to return him, and thus his eventual return to the past was destined before it took place. (OK, I’ve got a headache now). There doesn’t seem to be an mechanism available in the story to explain how the Enterprise and/or crew would know that history had been altered by Samuel Clemens’ sudden disappearance in 1893, but that is clearly because the story was written from the predestination view of time travel.

There have been a couple time travel stories that don't address the problem of non-travelers knowing the timeline had been altered. Or where the time travel doesn’t effects the existence of some things that it should, like the classic TOS episode “City on the Edge of Forever” in which McCoy changes history and the Enterprise doesn’t even exist, but somehow the landing party still exists, and with their memories of the original timeline intact. You can rationalize an explanation for some stories. In the case of COTEOF, perhaps the fantastically powerful Guardian of Forever has some sort of “time-field” around it that protected the landing party from the changes, allowing them to exist in the new timeline (so they would have a chance to rescue McCoy and repair the timeline). Some stories do address the knowledge of timeline alterations issue. In First Contact, it is included in the story that the Enterprise was caught in the “temporal wake” of the time vortex the Borg sphere had created to go back in time, which allowed the Enterprise to see the present-day results of the alternate timeline the Borg would create (and also give the Enterprise the means to follow the Borg back in time in an attempt to repair the damage the Borg would do to the timeline if the Borg were allowed to succeed).

A great example of where the timeline is intentionally drastically change for the better is TNG “Yesterday’s Enterprise.” But to fully understand this from a logical perspective, we have to think a little outside the box from how the story was presented to us. So by this episode, we’ve watched a couple seasons of this show featuring the ongoing adventures of Enterprise-D in the 2360s. Until this episode, we had no knowledge of the Enterprise-C and the Battle of Narendra III. Our Enterprise comes upon a temporal anomaly, and suddenly everything changes to an “alternate” timeline. The Enterprise-C comes through a temporal anomaly. The alternate Tasha Yar (whom I’ll affectionately refer to as “Alt-Tasha”) goes back in time with the Enterprise-C and that seems to “restore” the normal timeline of the series.

Now let’s look at the timeline in more chronological fashion. In 2344, the Battle of Narendra III occurs and the Enterprise-C is blasted into the future. The Enterprise disappears from the battle and reappears in 2366 of the dark timeline in which the Federation is losing a war with the Klingons. Despite the order of appearance, this is really the original timeline that occurred without (backwards) time travel. Then Alt-Tasha goes back with the Enterprise-C to 2244 and alters the timeline. The Enterprise-C is destroyed this time but the Klingons are inspired to continue the peace process. The timeline leading to the TNG series is actually the altered one. It’s only considered “restored” for the viewers. “Yesterday’s Enterprise” is actually an origin story for the timeline that we had already been watching for a couple seasons.

The only real “paradox” is that in the original timeline how Alt-Guinan suddenly felt like everything was wrong and stated the way things “should” be, when in actuality they had never been like that… yet. Even though Alt-Guinan had known Alt-Tasha for a while, she suddenly felt that Alt-Tasha “should” be dead and that she “died” a meaningless death in the timeline that “should” exist, when actually that timeline hadn’t been created until the Enterprise-C was sent back to 2344 to create it. Both Guinans seems to exhibit an extra-normal perception of the space-time continuum, having intuitions about alternate timelines. So for us, the viewers, we intuitively understand what Alt-Guinan refers to when she says “should,” but from a chronological point of view, the new timeline was newly created because of her perception about the way things “should” be. It would stand to reason that both Guinans’ perceptions are enhanced by proximity to temporal anomalies such as the one that took the Enterprise-C from 2344 to 2366, and perhaps she didn’t consciously realize that she was just perceiving a possible timeline that was better than the one she was in, thus urging Alt-Picard to send the Enterprise-C back to 2344 to create better timeline.

I loved “Yesterday’s Enterprise” because I hated Tasha’s meaningless death in “Skin of Evil.” Alt-Tasha was willing to sacrifice her life heroically for her death to be meaningful, and ironically the resulting new and better timeline was one in which the other version of her would die a meaningless death. (Of course Alt-Tasha’s meaningful death was robbed when they established that she had survived in the new timeline to spawn Sela - but that’s another story.)

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[Whill]

Alternate Timeline Vs. Alternate Reality (& The Star Trek Multiverse)

Alternate timeline doesn’t usually mean alternate reality/universe as in Star Trek 09. That was done merely to cool the ire of the diehard fans of the original (primary/prime) Trek in a gesture meant for the new movie to seem not to invalidate the entire previous franchise (except Enterprise, which ironically also irritated many diehards). This real world fact strongly supports the notion that the entire previous franchise of stories is meant to be viewed one “canon” (timeline) as the OP states as one option. Yes, there is a Star Trek Multiverse. Some examples of member universes include the Prime Universe, the Mirror Universe, all many parallel realities depicted in TNG “Parallels”, and the new Alternate Reality.

An in-universe explanation for ST09’s alternate reality could be that this original method of time travel (being sucked into artificial “black holes” created by red matter) results in (1) entering the past of your own reality and then that incursion creates a divergent reality that shoots off from the original branch instead of rewriting the original timeline of the universe the travelers came from, or perhaps (2) entering the past of a identical yet parallel universe. In either of those two options, from the point of the original incursion you’ve got a new sequence of events running parallel to the original reality/universe.

Another possibility is that when the black hole absorbed the abnormally powerful supernova, (3) that mass and energy went back to the dawn of time and ignited the big bang of new universe identical in history to the Prime one with the red matter black hole in 2387, and then Nero and Spock get sucked in they both go to the past of that new universe, but to different times both much closer to their present, causing the new sequence of events starting in 2233. It stands to reason that if the Nerada and the Jellyfish both went back in time, then everything else that got absorbed by the red matter black holes, such as the Prime Universe supernova, the alternate (destroyed) planet Vulcan and the wreckage of the Nerada also went back in time as well (but where Vulcan and the Nerada got sucked to I don't know). So perhaps the red matter black hole sucking up the Prime supernova is what created this new alternate universe in the first place!

But regardless, the implication from the creators of new movie is that the Prime Universe is only one canon/reality/timeline that can partially be defined as the sequence of events portrayed in all the non-time travel canon stories, topped with the end result of all time travels stories in the old franchise, which has always pretty much been the official stance from Paramount/CBS. And getting to the heart of the question of the OP, what exactly is the end result? Did some time travel stories alter previously seen stories?

The last portrayed canon events of the original Trek franchise were portrayed in the flashbacks of Spock-Prime’s mind-meld with Kirk in ST09. I respectfully submit that, although the Prime timeline was definitely altered from numerous time travels and thus was re-written many times, most of the franchise’s stories still existed in one timeline from that one Prime Universe that Spock left in 2387, although for somewhat different reason from what anyone else has stated in this thread.

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