Supernatural5x18"Point of No Return" spoilerish/discussion

[Snaploud]

I'm glad Zacharia is gone. I understand the need to explain why "siding with the angels" is a bad idea, but the final episodes of the season are going to be a lot more interesting with charismatic characters representing both sides of the angel/devil debate. They need somebody with more charisma to play the "let's bring heaven to earth--the angels' way" argument.

Castiel managed to "escape" wherever those Enochian symbols send the angels when Dean used it on him earlier in the episode. The only reason I'd imagine he'd have a harder time now is because he brought four others with him.

That would be my assumption.

 

[Technobuilder]

Just finished this episode and I was reminded of a post I made way back in Feb. of 2009

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=2584709&highlight=Supernatural#post2584709

The thing about Supernatural is that it's at its best when it goes for the unexpected twist.

I see the Battle going down betwixt Heaven & Hell, and I think to myself, is either side in the right?

The Angels are Dicks for the most part, the ESTABLISHMENT who puts down any rebellious faction and doesn't think anything about wiping out an entire city to maintain order (good). Casualties be damned.

The Demons, the original Rebels who feel slighted by the ESTABLISHMENT or just tend to revel in the throes of chaos/anarchy (evil).

Neither side trusts Sam Winchester only because they don't control him. He's a wild card that could upset the "balance"

Both sides have been after Dean, only because they think he can be manipulated to serve their end goals.

I keep thinking that the brothers will be at odds, as they've been pushed by both sides into fulfilling particular roles in the 'Battle'...

But then both sides are going to get a big "F*ck You!" when the Winchester Brothers use their Free Will and turn the tables on both Heaven & Hell.

No matter what, the end of this season should set the stage for a whole new ballgame.

I think I was pretty damn close.

 

[DeadmeatDiggory]

You know to be perfectly honest, I wasn't really blown away by this episode. Maybe it had to do with the fact that it was the big 100th, or maybe it had to do with that fact that at the end of the last episode Dean excepting Michael was a given and then this week... nothing.

It's starting to feel like Kripke is stretching out the last chapter of the Five Season Storyline into a Sixth Season. That would explain the high number of non-mythology episodes, why all the Four Horsemen aren't revealed yet, the constant stalling, and etc.

I'll bet dollars to donuts that this year WILL end in a cliffhanger, and the cliffhanger will be ether

A) Dean excepts Michael and is taken as a host.
B) Sam excepts Lucifer and is taken as a host.
or C) BOTH.

Ether way, I gotta say I'm more interested in what I've heard for the next episode, then I was for this one.

Maybe if it was John Winchester, who we haven't seen for three seasons, brought back the episode would have been a winner for me. I might go and watch it again, see if a repeat viewing changes my mind.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

No, they're not going to stretch out the Lucifer arc into a sixth season precisely because TPTB don't want it stretched out and diluted. Kripke doesn't want that at all. That's already been stated.

I woke up early this morning and fired up my DVD. I loved it. I was blown away by the episode. The character work was outstanding. What went on between Dean and Sam was worth everything. It was an ample emotional payoff, and Dean now being "back in the game" seems earned by the narrative. They needed to have those conversations. Then again, I've considered SPN more of a character piece for a long time now. I enjoy the addition of Adam. Some of the militant TWOP crazies have actually warmed to him, which I consider a minor miracle and major success. I think Jake Abel did a fine job differentiating between snarky, bitter Adam and wide eyed, innocent, impersonated by a ghoul Adam. Castiel becoming a fighter yet again....wow. The character needed that edge again. Glad it's back.

Blow me, Cas.

I can't believe what they get past the censors. Not quite good enough to knock off "In My Time of Dying" as my number one episode, but close. Yea!

 

[Othello]

Eh.. a very average episode.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

I can't agree. I'm surprised at that reaction. Were people expecting more action? It was a character piece. Then again, that's always been what I favored.

 

[Othello]

Top ten in no particular order

Born Under A Bad Sign.
Crossroad Blues
In My time of Dying
Jus In bello
In The Beginning
The End
What Is And Should Never Be
Mystery Spot
Bad Day At Black Rock
Heaven and Hell

 

[Othello]

I know several people are not going to want to see a story with Adam in it (as many hated the very idea of the character), but not me as the idea of John (let alone) Dean not reproducing seems extremely unlikely.

My issue with Adam had nothing to do with the idea of him. I just didn't particularly think the actor was that good and he never seemed like a real person to me more like a plot device.

I also forgot to mention that I still find the angels' plan to let lucifer out to wreak havoc then have a battle between he and Michael to not be all that convincing and one I think the writers hoped no one would give much thought to--it sorta exists as a means to an end storywise. I just don't buy the logic of it.

he was decent in his original episode but he was DAMN good in last night's episode. Pitch perfect in how someone put in his position would feel.

 

[Othello]

I can't agree. I'm surprised at that reaction. Were people expecting more action? It was a character piece. Then again, that's always been what I favored.

It might be the "hype" factor that I came in with. I can see the points you are talking about and they ave merit. This might be one of those times where the "hype" i saw elsewhere skewed my expectations of the episode and what I expected to see.

I usually like the character arc/growth stories as well. I did find myself feeling yet again that Dean is a hypocritical douchebag, which usually leads me to really enjoying an episode, especially if sam comes back at him over it. I just don't like Dean very much. Like Sam way better. I mean sams killed a woman and drained her of all her blood, had lots of sex with a demon, etc etc.. and I STILL think he's 1000% better person/brother than Dean is on his best days. LOL It bugged me, though I know it made sense, that Sam had that faith in Dean.

 

[Checkmate]

I don't get the criticism/disappoint much either. I rather enjoyed it. But I've become used to the majority of people having the exact opposite opinion of me on these shows, so it's no real surprise.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

he was decent in his original episode but he was DAMN good in last night's episode. Pitch perfect in how someone put in his position would feel.

I quite agree. I was very impressed with Jake Abel. Also, he really looks like he could share half a gene pool with both brothers.

 

[startrekwatcher]

I can't agree. I'm surprised at that reaction. Were people expecting more action? It was a character piece. Then again, that's always been what I favored.

No, not expecting more action--in fact SN has rarely done action sequences all that well so don't mind if they don't include it. I even put aside my expectations for the 100th episode and judged it as I would any other weekly episode.

I long ago accepted that SN's budget is going to limit it in many ways. Plot is never going to play a role despite how well they managed it in season 4. So of course that leaves the character stuff centering pretty much exclusively on Sam and Dean--which can be hit or miss. As for this episode as I mentioned I could care less about Adam so I really couldn't become involved in the crisis for Dean and to a lesser extent Sam. It prevented me from penetrating the story emotionally and therefore my interest faded quickly. Adam was a plot device and the writers just wanted me to view him as a means to an end but I didn't like that.

I mean if you break down the episode you have a pretty barebones story and I honestly don't find the character work as compelling as some like yourself. I think a lot of that is the way the writers pull the character work off in a very dry academic style rather than a more naturalized feel--thay's just my opinion--and there is more than just the character scenes I take into account when evaluating the episode as a whole. And as I've stated many times the injection of all the meta stuff and the humor parodies erode this season the drama the show wants at times because I don't necessarily buy into it. It is going to be blasphemy but the more I think on this episode I just found it boring and certain themes repetitive.

 

[Skywalker]

he was decent in his original episode but he was DAMN good in last night's episode. Pitch perfect in how someone put in his position would feel.

I quite agree. I was very impressed with Jake Abel. Also, he really looks like he could share half a gene pool with both brothers.

Also agreed. I thought he sounded a lot like Dean at times, both in the pitch of his voice and in the way he spoke.

I quite enjoyed the episode, and while I think Michael is going to "settle" for Adam right now, I think he's going to face the same issue Lucifer has with Nick, in that Adam will make for an okay vessel temporarily, but to be able to really let loose and do what needs to be done, he'll still need Dean, just as Lucifer needs Sam.

 

[Snaploud]

It would be nice if Michael could find a better actor than the one playing Adam, but I agree that he will probably settle for Adam in the same way Lucifer settled for Nick (or whatever his name was). That way we can have both sides interacting with Dean and Sam during the end of the season.

You know to be perfectly honest, I wasn't really blown away by this episode. Maybe it had to do with the fact that it was the big 100th, or maybe it had to do with that fact that at the end of the last episode Dean excepting Michael was a given and then this week... nothing.

It's starting to feel like Kripke is stretching out the last chapter of the Five Season Storyline into a Sixth Season. That would explain the high number of non-mythology episodes, why all the Four Horsemen aren't revealed yet, the constant stalling, and etc.

I'll bet dollars to donuts that this year WILL end in a cliffhanger, and the cliffhanger will be ether

A) Dean excepts Michael and is taken as a host.
B) Sam excepts Lucifer and is taken as a host.
or C) BOTH.

Ether way, I gotta say I'm more interested in what I've heard for the next episode, then I was for this one.

Maybe if it was John Winchester, who we haven't seen for three seasons, brought back the episode would have been a winner for me. I might go and watch it again, see if a repeat viewing changes my mind.

I try not to nit-pick, but you did do it three times in one post.

Given the context, the word choice should be "accept" rather than "except."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/accept
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/except

 

[KeepOnTrekking]

I thought that it turned out rather good myself. With all the budget cuts, I wasn't expecting a spectacular event for the 100th episode. I was avoiding spoilers recently and I was nicely surprised by use of Adam to try to get to Dean, Dean getting off his duff and back into the game, Zack's fate, and the question of whether Adam is a vessel for Michael still or not. I wasn't disappointed.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

It was rather good. Good character stuff. I really ought Dean's despair and eventual "resurrection." It was earned, and for that I give the writers (and actors) extremely high marks. I think some are uncomfortable with Dean's despair, but I think it rang true. Bravo, writers. Dean being perceived as "weak" really offends some of the more rabid Dean girls. It can't all be smartass one liners.

And having watched it again, I appreciate Jake Abel even more. Seeing Sam being mature enough to pick up the pieces was awesome as well. It's about time. And Dean's eyes turning white. He's killed two supernatural creatures now he shouldn't have been able to kill. I guess it's because of his bloodline. Not sure.

 

[AJBryant]

I have to say that I loved Dean's suggestion that the "fancy room" might be on Jupiter. He never struck me as someone who might have sat through 2001: A Space Odyssey.

 

[startrekwatcher]

He's killed two supernatural creatures now he shouldn't have been able to kill. I guess it's because of his bloodline. Not sure.

He killed Zach with that angel-killing silver knife thing. It doesn't take anyone special to do that--angel, human, Winchester or no Winchester.

He killed the demon whore creature because at that moment he had decided to let Michael take him over and was technically a servant of God.

I watched it again this weekend and my original comments stand. It was fair but I didn't think it was that great. Sadly SN for me has just continued to slip when it comes to my favorite tv shows. It once was appointment viewing now it is a show I watch out of inertia and the best I can hope is a good or great episode every few weeks. Too bad this wasn't the final season because I'm not sure I will be able to muster the enthusiasm if next season is as pedestrian as this one has been and I really wonder if the writers aren't burnt out.

 

[Snaploud]

He killed the demon whore creature because at that moment he had decided to let Michael take him over and was technically a servant of God.

I believe the language was "servant of heaven." Honestly, though, I think they may have jumped to conclusions a bit too quickly on interpreting what constitutes a servant of heaven.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

We'll have to disagree, Star Trek Watcher. I think SPN continues to be a great show. In all fairness, you seem to burn out on most shows except Lost. Everyone's entitled to her opinion, of course. I like SPN's message. God helps those who help themselves. I think He's still very much interested. Dean's like Lot, the last good man left in Sodom or however that story went. I wonder if Michael will use Adam for leverage. I don't think the writers are burnt out at all. They're drawing to a well planned out conclusion. As for season six, I'm trepidatious but we'll see.