I'd think they'd have a hard time getting a yarmulkah to sit on those bizarre craniums!
Doug
Have the Klingons ever been accused on racism?
- Thread starter EmmanuelZorg
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I'd think they'd have a hard time getting a yarmulkah to sit on those bizarre craniums!
Doug
Where to start...?
1) Mexico is not in South America.
2) I've never met a Mexican, or South American person, who looks like a TNG Klingon. In fact, the last South American I met, an Argentinian, looked more like a Scandinavian than I do (I'm English/Dutch/German).
3) I don't remember the TNG Klingons ever speaking Spanish or Portugese, so I don't see how you got the idea that they're Latino.
Doug
We know what the intended question of the OP is, but the question is so ridiculous that we answered a different one.
Oh come on. Lt. Stiles in Balance of Terror, with his blatant racism towards Romulans, and, by association, Vulcans? The guy kept insulting the ship's first officer, his superior, no less. Scotty's racist remark to Spock in Day of the Dove, when the crew's antagonisms were coming to the fore under the influence of the alien being? Kirk's - and a bunch of other crewmembers' - hatred for Klingons in Undiscovered Country? And these are just the most blatant, antagonistic moments. But sorry, McCoy was racist to Spock, even if this was presented as a more benevolent and friendly sort of racism. "Pointy-eared bastard", "green-blooded son of a bitch", "Vulcan son of a bitch" and numerous other references to Spock's Vulcan atributes. If he had called Sulu "you slanted-eyed son of a bitch" in jest, would you still say he wasn't being racist?
There were not that many examples of blatant human racism in the TNG era, though they're sure arrogant and tend to look down how on some other species (like Ferengi)... but about The Drumhead with its xenophobic witch-hunt? Simon Tarses was treated as an enemy spy only because he was part-Romulan. O'Brien's prejudice towards Cardassians was something the show dealt with, but how about VOY Nothing Human where Harry Kim finds B'Elanna's racism justified, saying that the Cardassians "are not the nicest species in the galaxy" - way to generalize about an entire species, Harry! The sad thing that it seems that the episode's writer, Jeri Taylor (who, astonishingly, wrote The Wounded before that), didn't even realize that this was a racist remark.
Well, it depends.
I mean, if the person is deciding he is a "son of a bitch" based on his slanty eyes, then that obviously is racism. But it is acceptable for friends to call out each others physical features when insulting each other. A friend might call Picard a "bald-headed bastard". Do such features fall out-of-bounds just because they are racial or ethnic in origin?My experience is that among truly good friends they do not.
Actually, Simon Tarses was treated as a potential spy because he lied about being part Romulan. He lied about being part Romulan because he was afraid he might be kept out of Starfleet if it was known. So, while his treatment in the episode isn't evidence of racism (the issue was his lying, not his race), he lied because he assumed there would be racism.
Not really the same thing. If a friend/co-worker kept pestering Picard about his stuffiness and asking him if he has any feelings or knows how to have fun, you "bald-headed bastard", it wouldn't be the same because they would not be implying that Picard's baldness is connected to either his character traits, or his racial, ethnic or national identity, and they wouldn't be implying that his character traits are connected with his racial, ethnic or national identity. McCoy's barbs about Spock were always about the traits associated with the Vulcan culture - adherence to logic, suppression of emotion - and he was always calling Spock names that referred to his Vulcanity, it was always either "Vulcan son of a bitch", or some physical trait specific to the Vulcans. I'm pretty sure that's racism, even if it's a 'friendly' racism.
Would he be treated as a potential spy if he lied about, say, his school record?
ReadyAndWilling
Fleet Captain
This is what the OP's post should have been.
Is it racist for a group of people to say "leave us alone"? How is it evil or racist for a collection of people to want to preserve the thing that makes them unique in the galaxy? Not just their history, but their very DNA.
That's part of the problem with Tibet. The Chinese are flooding Chinese people into their region and eventually this will destroy the Tibetan people.
It was not? How so?
"The Federation and Romulans were enemies?" Does that mean that Federation citizens of Romulan ancestry were the enemies of the Federation?
Tarses was a Federation citizen, so why should his Romulan ancestry make him a potential enemy? If he's part-Romulan, he's probably a Romulan spy, right?
"He lied about being part Romulan." So what? Is that a shameful secret? Is he also supposed to disclose every detail of his ancestry, maybe he should present Starfleet with a complete history of his family? What bearing does it have on his career in Starfleet? Unless Starfleet is not really that tolerant and accepting as it pretends to be... and unless Federation considers the entire Romulan race its enemy?
And it turns out he was right.
that was the point of Admiral Satie trying him, and why Picard said that the proceeding was immoral. of course, the episode was a take on McCarthyism, and showing how anybody with any inkling of enemy association can be targeted. this is also why Picard said to Worf at the end that they should be vigilant, because there would always be people trying to accuse as Satie did.
It was not? How so?
"The Federation and Romulans were enemies?" Does that mean that Federation citizens of Romulan ancestry were the enemies of the Federation?
Tarses was a Federation citizen, so why should his Romulan ancestry make him a potential enemy? If he's part-Romulan, he's probably a Romulan spy, right?
"He lied about being part Romulan." So what? Is that a shameful secret? Is he also supposed to disclose every detail of his ancestry, maybe he should present Starfleet with a complete history of his family? What bearing does it have on his career in Starfleet? Unless Starfleet is not really that tolerant and accepting as it pretends to be... and unless Federation considers the entire Romulan race its enemy?
And it turns out he was right.
Lying on an employment application is usually grounds for termination. He was suspended for six months and then re-posted to Starfleet's flagship where he continued a promising career.
Go get a job with the CIA, lie about the fact that one of your parents was Russian by saying they were French, and then see what happens to you when your boss gets accused of selling secrets to Moscow. It has nothing to do with racism. And Tarses was being investigated out of fear and paranoia, not racism per se. From the prosecutor's view, Tarses had had multiple contacts with the Klingon who had been caught selling secrets to the Romulans and for some reason, he had coincidentally lied about having Romulan heritage in order to get into Starfleet. I won't comment on the witch hunt undertaken during the episode, and he obviously went too far with his zealousness, but I don't think the reasoning was racism.
Um... it doesn't? How so?
First off, you wouldn't have a reason to lie about the fact that one of your parents is Russian, unless there was an anti-Russian atmosphere in either the organization you're applying to, or your environment. If there was no such prejudice anywhere in the country where you grew up in, why would you even get that idea?
And why would you conclude that someone who is of Russian origin is likely to be a Russian spy? Unless you're just stereotyping an entire ethnic group, which means you're prejudiced against Russians.
In fact, if Russian intelligence services were looking for a spy, I bet they'd look for less obvious people, and they'd be smart enough to give them great covers. It's silly to think that a an actual spy would act like that and get caught on such a silly matter. A real spy would be doing everything to make himself/herself less suspicious. If you were of a Russian spy who was of Russian origin but knew you could get into CIA anyway and wouldn't raise suspicion, why would you lie about your origin and risk making yourself more suspicious?
Most of the Cold War-era Soviet spies I've heard of were not of Russian (or any of the other USSR countries) origin at all. Think of the Cambridge Five.
Tarses' lying about his origin was obviously an action of an ordinary person who was aware of the racial prejudice against the Romulans (think of Stiles in Balance of Terror) and has mostly likely experienced it, and was acting out of insecurity, fear and a desire to be accepted in his new environment. A real spy, recruited and trained, would never make such a mistake.
Fear, paranoia, and racism/xenophobia. It's not like the first two exclude the latter. In fact, those three often go together.
This was sort of my point: That Tarses felt the need to lie is itself evidence of racism, although indirectly (he could have been wrong).
That said, it may be the only evidence of racism in that episode.
That isn't the question. The question is "why would you conclude that someone who lied about Russian origin is likely to be a Russian spy?". A decent answer to that is "Why else would he lie about that?"
Actually, in the Intelligence business, such people are automatically recognized as risks. And not because of racism: enemy agents may seek to persuade you to pass information to them by threatening your relatives. If you have relatives who live under their control, that becomes a whole lot easier. Have an uncle in Poland? You're not going to be working the desk of anywhere in Eastern Europe, because the Soviets might threaten your uncle to get you to help them.
But my main point is: we are shown again and again that Starfleet considers lying to Starfleet to be very serious indeed, even if it was just fudging your resume when you applied for the job.
And the incredibly obvious answer to that is:
A better question is "why would he lie about that if he were a spy?" If he were a spy, I think that people who recruited him would be smart enough to give him some training and teach him not to do things that would only draw further suspicion to him, like lie about his origin, which Starfleet can easily find out. Or they wouldn't risk recruiting such a lame spy that is so liable to be found out. Unless Tal Shiar are amateurs.
Sorry. Well as a person who lives in Venezuela which is in south america and has a venezuelan passport, I guess that makes me a latino. Regarding klingons, after watching recently some TNG and a lot of DS9 Klingons look generally ridiculous to me. Their characterization fails on so many levels and makes the romulans look far more serious than them. Back when I was a teenager I admit having a craze for klingons, so i find klingons closer to what an adolecent dork acts like more than anything else.
As a "latino" here are some similarities:
- Like to get drunk, boast about their strenght, masculinity, might and bravery. (Machismo) Our societies are profundly machist, compared to the rest of the western world.
- Disrecpect to some ethnic minorities and/or foreigners and openly homophobic.
Now, the biggest difference between them and klingons is, that when trouble arises they will run away like little P'taQs ;-)
As a "latino" here are some similarities:
- Like to get drunk, boast about their strenght, masculinity, might and bravery. (Machismo) Our societies are profundly machist, compared to the rest of the western world.
- Disrecpect to some ethnic minorities and/or foreigners and openly homophobic.
Now, the biggest difference between them and klingons is, that when trouble arises they will run away like little P'taQs ;-)
Neumann, I think you're on the right track to interpret the OP's question. I wish the OP would come back and clarify the question, but I think maybe you've got it.
Doug
Comparing Klingons with Latin (some Mexican) men I've dated
Macho personalities, buff bodies (some chunky), dark skins (like mine), black hair, I think most Klingons had brown eyes, especial the Mexicans carried knives, while they spoke English would sometimes emphasize what they were thinking by using another language, yell when they are angry.
Differences with Latin men.
Superior table manners, know how to comb their hair, rarely miss when they shoot, families don't possess warships, can raise children (Worf).
Macho personalities, buff bodies (some chunky), dark skins (like mine), black hair, I think most Klingons had brown eyes, especial the Mexicans carried knives, while they spoke English would sometimes emphasize what they were thinking by using another language, yell when they are angry.
Differences with Latin men.
Superior table manners, know how to comb their hair, rarely miss when they shoot, families don't possess warships, can raise children (Worf).
Interesting, but I'm a little unclear on these points:
1) The Mexican men you dated carried knives?
2) The differences: Are you saying the Mexican men you dated had superior table manners, etc. or inferior to the Klingons on TNG?
3) The Mexican men you dated shot firearms? What were the situations?
Thanks,
El Norte Doug
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