A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

[Truth_Seeker]

Meanwhile... Ivanova and Ron Moore go searching for a giant stone head that lives in a Christmas tree ornament in order to convince it to fight against the Shadows.

Here's a little mystery for TGB - try to remember where have you seen the "flying discotheque" before?

 

[Myasishchev]

^It seems to me that you're asking precisely the questions the episode was asking, and reacting with precisely the same horror that Brother Edward did. In other words, the episode did for you precisely what it was intended to-----taking EA's "enlightened" no-death-penalty policy and showing that in some ways it may actually be worse than a death penalty.

I would also point out that there does not appear to be any enforcement of profession for mind-wipees. The "serving others" thing is simply a mandate included in their new personality (since they have to put something in there, after all), and that typically leads into similar sorts of roles for them.

What I wonder is if you can get death of personality by request, without a criminal conviction. I'd suspect a lot of people would actually go for it, especially a pared down version.

Kind of like how the neural neutralizer in Star Trek's "Dagger of the Mind" would have actually made a great medical tool, except it was being run by a crazy person.

 

[Reverend]

Exactly. And I would further add that it's fairly clear that who you are, according to the ep, is more than messing around with physical elements in the brain. There IS a you there, not just a cleverly put together piece of tissue and electrochemicals.

Actually, the episode is careful to leave both doors open so it only asks the question without providing the answer. Remember that that Centauri teep said that the brain has a lot of redundancy and that the visions were not telepathic projections, but Charles Dexter's actual memories.

So you can choose to believe it either way. On the one hand if Edward still has the soul (or whatever you want to call it) then it's about repentance. On the other hand if Edward is a different person then it's about paying for the sins of another. Personally I think the writer's position is revealed through the title he chose. Remember, according to Christian belief, Christ didn't wait in Gethsemane because he knew he was guilty and deserved what was coming.

 

[sidious618]

Meanwhile... Ivanova and Ron Moore

Brilliant!

 

[Kegg]

I didn't like how the situation with the Walkers played out. G'Kar once said the gulf between them and us was like us and ants; but TheGodBen is right, we can just do a bit of petty armtwisting and hey presto, they're at our beck and call? Even if they're snobbish elites... then they're now just snobbish elites. They're not all so distant or majestic anymore, just extremely old coots with inflated self-importance. Either way it undermines one of my favourite G'Kar speeches.

 

[stonester1]

I don't get the assumption that being an ancient, extremely advanced alien race would mean that you have no more cares, no more concerns, no more grudges, especially with peers?

Ivanova got lucky, found a sore spot, pressed it.

I'm cool with that.

 

[Reverend]

Plus of course it was only 1000 years since the last war when they and the others walked openly, so by their standards and perception of time it's hardly as if they were total shut-ins until Ivanova showed up.

To me their reaction seamed more like a tiresome *sigh* "oh all right FINE, if you're going to cry about it! Bloody kids." Than really falling for any ploy.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

Of course, the First Ones are aloof and proud. I guess I see it a bit like the Lumati situation; they know what Ivanova's doing, but they're hardly going to admit that "lesser" races could give them advice or screw them around.

I also see it a bit like the Lumati situation: a bad bit of writing surrounding the character of Ivanova, that the audience has to rationalize for it to make one whit of sense. Coupled with Claudia Christian's mediocre imo acting ability, it all adds up to Ivanova being one of my least favorite characters. I'd attribute it to JMS trying a little to hard to make Ivanova seem really competent.

 

[Pilot Ace]

Even if they're snobbish elites... then they're now just snobbish elites. They're not all so distant or majestic anymore, just extremely old coots with inflated self-importance.

I thought that was the whole point?

The perception of the ancients changes from reverence to realizing that they're not all that better, knowledgeable, etc. than us. Maybe that they're even worse because they've allowed themselves to get especially arrogant.

That's how I always took it, at least.

 

[Fist McStrongpunch]

Plus of course it was only 1000 years since the last war when they and the others walked openly, so by their standards and perception of time it's hardly as if they were total shut-ins until Ivanova showed up.

1000 years since the last war against the Shadows. 10,000 years since the lat Great War, the last time the First Ones walked openly.

 

[Reverend]

Plus of course it was only 1000 years since the last war when they and the others walked openly, so by their standards and perception of time it's hardly as if they were total shut-ins until Ivanova showed up.

1000 years since the last war against the Shadows. 10,000 years since the lat Great War, the last time the First Ones walked openly.

Yes and no. The last of the First Ones (the ones that didn't disappear off into the inter galactic void) did make an appearance in the last Shadow War, but yes you're right, before that they'd been keeping to themselves for 9000 years since the others ran off. Still, the point remains valid, 10,000 years isn't that long a time for a race that peeked over a million years ago.

 

[chrisspringob]

JMS had a thing for events being spaced out by a number of years that's a nice round power of 10. 10 years after the Earth-Minbari War, 1000 years since the last Shadow War, 10,000 years since the Shadow War before that, etc. Granted, they're presumably rounding in many of those cases, but there's never something that happened 600 years ago or 8000 years ago, etc. This comes up again later in the series as well.

 

[Aeon]

To me their reaction seamed more like a tiresome *sigh* "oh all right FINE, if you're going to cry about it! Bloody kids." Than really falling for any ploy.

Exactly.

 

[Forbin]

Zog?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Zog?

Watch your language!

 

[Neroon]

Zog?

For great justice!

 

[JoeD80]

I also see it a bit like the Lumati situation: a bad bit of writing surrounding the character of Ivanova, that the audience has to rationalize for it to make one whit of sense.

To say it requires audience rationalization is an odd statement, because this is Joe's created Universe so it has Joe's rules; and under Joe's rules all the races can be arrogant regardless of how advanced they are.

 

[Vestboy]

JMS had a thing for events being spaced out by a number of years that's a nice round power of 10. 10 years after the Earth-Minbari War, 1000 years since the last Shadow War, 10,000 years since the Shadow War before that, etc. Granted, they're presumably rounding in many of those cases, but there's never something that happened 600 years ago or 8000 years ago, etc. This comes up again later in the series as well.

"Minbari do not lie. We do, however, often round our numbers up."

 

[Lindley]

Q: How many Minbari does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Human answer: None. They always surrender right before they finish, and they never tell you why.
Minbari answer: Minbari lightbulbs use a superior technology with an extensive life. No Minbari has had to change a lightbulb since the Dark Times a thousand years ago....

 

[Reverend]

JMS had a thing for events being spaced out by a number of years that's a nice round power of 10. 10 years after the Earth-Minbari War, 1000 years since the last Shadow War, 10,000 years since the Shadow War before that, etc. Granted, they're presumably rounding in many of those cases, but there's never something that happened 600 years ago or 8000 years ago, etc.

Sure there is. The first of the original jump gates were built "8000 years ago", about "500 years ago" Varn became the guardian of the great machine and...

Spoiler: Season 5: Secrets of the Soul

...if memory serves, the Hyach finished off the Hyach-do about "820 years ago".

To say it requires audience rationalization is an odd statement, because this is Joe's created Universe so it has Joe's rules; and under Joe's rules all the races can be arrogant regardless of how advanced they are.

Sadly, arrogance has never been exclusively a Human trait.