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A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

At the end of the episode we learn that she's screwing Kosh, or something, and I have absolutely no idea what that's all about.

Okay, I wasn't going to mention this until after you saw season 4, because even if you stick to just the episodes you've seen, there are still spoilers, but more than one of your points has reminded me of the seminal work "Babylon 5: The Missing Lines," and this one is just too perfect to pass up.

Passing Through Gethsemane

Londo: Lyta Alexander, as I live and breathe! I have heard strange, strange things about you... even rumors that you are Kosh's girlfriend. I would pay a great deal of money to learn how the Vorlons "do it."

(Lyta reacts as she did on the show)

And, just for funsies, the first one that you reminded me of, way back in season one.

Infection (alternate title: The Mandatory Sci-Fi Episode Where a Society is Wiped Out by it's Own Weapons)

Garibaldi: I love this market. I can't tell whether this is an aphrodesiac or a floor wax--
Reporter: Mister Garibaldi, where are the bathrooms.
Garibaldi: Over there, but I'd steer clear of the methane breather's room. Our janitors were afraid to clean it ever since they heard a rumor. It was something about Kosh leaving a mess, I believe.


(Franklin describes the bioweapon situation to Sinclair)

Franklin: They were told to kill anyone who wasn't a pure Ikkaran.
Sinclair: And who set the standards for a "pure" Ikkaran?
Franklin: A coalition of military fanatics and religious extremists.
Sinclair: The Republican party?


(Sinclair chases the monster)

Monster: Protect! (zap)
Sinclair: Why?
M: Must destroy impurities!
S: Are you pure?
M: Pure! (zap)
S: How pure?
M: PURE! (zap)
S: Really pure?
M: REALLY REALLY PURE! (zap)
S: And what did you think of the Puritans of the 1500s?
M: Pure! (zap)
S: And your own people? On a scale of fourteen to thirty two, with fourteen being absolute metaphysical impuritude, and thirty two being completely pure, how pure were they?
M (thinks): Twenty nine! Very pure! (ZAP!)
(the scene continues as we saw it)


(Sinclair's quarters)

Garibaldi: Listen to me Jeff. Sometimes when people came back from the war they changed. Some of them thought it was easier to find something to die for than something to live for. Do you have Captain Kirk Syndrome or something?
Sinclair: You didn't hear me talking to the Ikkaran, did you?

"Captain Kirk Syndrome" about summed it up.
 
I love "Passing though Gethsemane". One of my favorite little touches is that we heard the 'one moment of perfect beauty' choir while Brother Edward was in the chapel.

Jan
 
I like Passing Through Gethsemane a lot as a stand alone. It is dramatic , serious , dark and well acted. Writer does not think banal conversations or another "45 min crisis in space" scripts. This is a repentance story of one man.
 
As much as I really like the episode, I have to agree that casting Brad Dourif rather telegraphs the fact that he's going to turn out to be a nutter.

As far as telegraphing "death of personality" as an alternative to execution, unfortunately I think that was a result of JMS not wanting anyone to be confused as it was last seen over a year previous (at original broadcast) and to my recollection had not been mentioned in the intervening time.
These days it's the convention for several shows to just do a short "previously on..." episode prologe as a matter of course but back then, multi-part shows aside, that just wasn't how it was done.
Of course neither solution is perfect as they both telegraph what's going to crop up, though arguably the latter is more organic as loading character dialogue with excessive exposition can overly burden an episode.
 
As much as I really like the episode, I have to agree that casting Brad Dourif rather telegraphs the fact that he's going to turn out to be a nutter.

When I first saw the episode back in 1995, I actually had no idea who Brad Dourif was. I hadn't yet seen One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. I hadn't seen the ep of X-Files that he was in. He hadn't yet appeared on Voyager. According to IMDb, he was in Dune, but I think I'd only seen Dune once at that point, and didn't remember many details of the casting.
 
As much as I really like the episode, I have to agree that casting Brad Dourif rather telegraphs the fact that he's going to turn out to be a nutter.

When I first saw the episode back in 1995, I actually had no idea who Brad Dourif was. I hadn't yet seen One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. I hadn't seen the ep of X-Files that he was in. He hadn't yet appeared on Voyager. According to IMDb, he was in Dune, but I think I'd only seen Dune once at that point, and didn't remember many details of the casting.
He was the dude who talked to himself a bunch. Oh, wait, everyone in Dune did that. Um... the evil doctor?
 
He was the dude who talked to himself a bunch. Oh, wait, everyone in Dune did that. Um... the evil doctor?

Dr Wellington Yueh was played by Dean Stockwell.

Brad Dourif played the Harkonnen mentat Piter De Vries. I was impressed by the way he ran downstairs.
 
Based on the other comments here, I must be the only person who didn't really like it (well, apart from TGB, of course). I'm a huge Babylon Five fan but this episode just doesn't work for me, and I find it vastly overated. Maybe it's just my whole revulsion at the very concept of mind-wipes (seriously, Earth Alliance lost any and all claims to being an admirable society back when the concept was introduced), but I just can't find any real moral complexity to it, which annoys me in the context of "Babylon Five", though it's not too unusual for stand-alone episode characters, sadly.

There's just "evil" murderers and "good" mind-wiped people, and the central concept in fact works against any idea of personal complexity or moral responsibility, in part because it avoids the issue of wider society and social pressures which are intimately linked to personal responsibility (gee, maybe if Earth Alliance respected the integrity of citizens to the point of not wiping their minds to punish wrongdoing, there might be more respect for others and less murders in the first place. Malcolm's sadistic punishment of Edward was just following the legal system's lead, but that was never brought up). I felt I was being presented with, simply "bad people" or "good people". Might as well have had Edward simply possessed by the essence or memories of another character. And Malcolm is equally "evil", until his revenge-obsessed personality is wiped away and turned passive and "good" only for Sheridan to still hate him despite him being someone new. :shifty:. That just left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't want to see our hero radiating hate at a mild-mannered innocent monk, thank you. It was the only moment on the series that I think they really crossed a line with Sheridan. And of course they never laboured the point that the legal system is essentially making a new person only to force them into low-status jobs as "punishment" for what the old personality did despite the very idea being that you wiped that personality. "Forgiveness is hard" is our lesson? What is there to forgive?! "Brother Malcolm" hasn't done anything!

The idea just doesn't work for me; how can you have a successful tale about repentance or forgiveness or character growth when the entire idea is to wipe out existing memories and personalities? That's the antithesis of any form of successful moral development. Can you imagine what the series overall would be like if the ongoing Londo-G'Kar plotline involved total personality wipes? Can G'Kar forgive Londo? Well, if we wipe Londo's personality and turn him into a good little monk, only for G'Kar to still be angry, so G'Kar kills Londo only to be turned into a good little monk himelf....okay, I know this is a standalone not an arc, but to me the same rules apply. To me this episode did not explore ideas of forgiveness, personal responsibility, repentance, etc, because it makes use of a story-telling device that renders these things utterly pointless and impossible. Given the undertones of subtlty I often pick up elsewhere in B5, I do wonder if that was part of the point, but if so it miscalculated this time. The whole thing came across as sadistic (as did the Earth Alliance- I mean, what a warped society. Forget Nightwatch and Clark, the original EA was messed up).

In my view, morality and responsibility and repentence are shared concepts, and individuals exist as part of a wider whole; to avoid the wider social realities only to focus on the individuals alone guts the situation of any real claim to moral complexity. Without the EA in its entirety coming under scrutiny, the collective responsibilities of all its citizens explored, the idea just doesn't work for me. I suppose what I'm saying is, any issue of responsibility or personal repentance etc involving the mind-wipe has to confront the manner in which EA is wiping its hands of any and all social responsibility in favour of "bad person" thinking- but the episode is not about that, it's about Brother Edward. Okay, the Minbari religious beliefs Delenn and Lennier describe might offer a subtle opposition to the Earther's way of doing things, but again I think B5 sadly miscalculated this time.

I certainly wouldn't call it a bad episode (I quite like most B5 standalone episodes), but I certainly can't view it in the way most others do, either. It didn't touch upon the ideas that to me should have been the real focus, it struggled with concepts that were undermined by the core concept of mind wipe, it seemed to simply overlook a lot of things that can't be overlooked in a story featuring legal mind-wipes and which is supposedly about forgiveness and moral responsibility, and it came across as simply...warped. Almost disturbing, though not in the way it wanted to be. Maybe it's just my personal issues with mind-wipe, which looms so large and disturbingly it wants to be the central focus, making it difficult for the episode to sit well with me.
 
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^It seems to me that you're asking precisely the questions the episode was asking, and reacting with precisely the same horror that Brother Edward did. In other words, the episode did for you precisely what it was intended to-----taking EA's "enlightened" no-death-penalty policy and showing that in some ways it may actually be worse than a death penalty.

I would also point out that there does not appear to be any enforcement of profession for mind-wipees. The "serving others" thing is simply a mandate included in their new personality (since they have to put something in there, after all), and that typically leads into similar sorts of roles for them.
 
^
And I suppose it's worth noting that Babylon 5 was made in America, a country where state sanctioned execution is still practiced in some states, so it could definitely be seen as a more moral alternative to simply killing them.
 
^It seems to me that you're asking precisely the questions the episode was asking, and reacting with precisely the same horror that Brother Edward did. In other words, the episode did for you precisely what it was intended to-----taking EA's "enlightened" no-death-penalty policy and showing that in some ways it may actually be worse than a death penalty.

Ah, well if that was indeed the intent, then yes, the episode was successful. I just didn't read it like that- though whether that was indeed a failing of the episode or with my reading, I'm not sure. It's somewhat amusing, because there are plenty of times where I've defended Babylon Five (which is probably my favourite TV show) by pointing out complexity that is often ignored, and subtlty that is ignored, but now (if I accept your point here) I'm criticizing a popular episode for, essentially, not being overt and obvious enough in its points. :lol: Maybe that's the point- I'm used to seeing a great deal of subtle undertones working against the obvious surface details in a B5 plot, but here, while I still essentially see them, something isn't adding up for me. Again, whether that's truly the episode or my own strong feelings getting in the way, I'm not sure.

It does feel odd, though, not to be gushing over this show. :)

However, I think the desire to focus on the character, to make this as a fellow poster put it "one man's repentance" just isn't truly compatible with the mind-wipe idea, which to me demands a focus on society and social attitudes as a whole (and whether the episode was working towards that or not doesn't really matter I guess). The episode is caught for me between individual struggle for personal repentance and responsibility, and wider commentary and society-wide evaluation. I think it gets caught, and fails in the latter through focus on the former, while the former can't work for me personally because it needs the latter. Does that make sense?

PS: I suppose one point of irritation as well- which explains my near-ranting above on the Earth Alliance- is how the struggle against Clark, Nightwatch, etc, overshadows any concern with the old EA's way of doing things- so why throw in our faces now a problem with the original EA when the whole goal is to restore that old and focus near-entirely on the problems with the new, post Santiago-assassination EA? Although, overall, while I find the EA/human plots fascinating and gripping, they never achieved the same emotional impact the Minbari, Narn and Centauri plots did...
 
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This is a fascinating discussion, I wish I didn't have to interject with a boob joke. :(


Voices of Authority (***)

Blondie McNiceboobs shows up on the station and makes the audience aware in no uncertain terms that Earth's leadership is up to no good. She also gets her tits out, which earned this episode half a star. :techman:

(No, not really.)

Blondie McNiceboobs is a bit weird, she reminds me of Jeri Ryan playing Dr Shmully in Voyager's Body and Soul; sort of goofy and not easy to take seriously. Perhaps that's the way it's supposed to be so that's it's harder to notice the level of threat she represents, I'm not sure. It seems a little too obvious that she and EarthDome are up to no good, it's hard to believe that anyone could take her claims at face value, but I've learned never to rule out the levels of stupidity sections of the general public will believe. Including some things I believe, I'm sure.

Still, the video evidence showing President Clark was involved in the plot to kill President Santiago was a bit too clear-cut evil for my tastes. In fact, it's so evil I feel it must be a fake, because nobody would be stupid enough to say "I hated Santiago so much!" to camera if they're part of a conspiracy to kill the President. The correct response is to say "Noted", hang up and then let out a sigh that's half-way between relief and remorse. No, the video of Clark is so unsubtle that it has to be a fake planted there by the Shadows so that members of the counter-conspiracy will come forward, that way it will be easier for the government to find them.

Meanwhile... Ivanova and Ron Moore go searching for a giant stone head that lives in a Christmas tree ornament in order to convince it to fight against the Shadows. The giant stone head says no (well, technically it says "zog"), so Ivanova uses reverse-psychology to trick it into fighting. I'm sorry, but when in the history of ever has reverse-psychology actually worked? :wtf: Am I supposed to believe that this ancient race from billions of years ago is going to fall for the oldest and most played-out trick in the book? If so they're not going to be much help once the war starts, all the Shadows need to do is use the old "Your fly is open" manoeuvre and these guys would fall for it. And they don't even wear pants!

Best part of the episode?
GARIBALDI: I can't read Narn.
G'KAR: Learn!

:lol:
 
Meanwhile... Ivanova and Ron Moore go searching for a giant stone head that lives in a Christmas tree ornament in order to convince it to fight against the Shadows.

:lol: As a huge B5 fan, I dread having to explain the show to non-fans because I fear it will often end up sounding a bit like this!

The giant stone head says no (well, technically it says "zog"), so Ivanova uses reverse-psychology to trick it into fighting..... If so they're not going to be much help once the war starts, all the Shadows need to do is use the old "Your fly is open" manoeuvre and these guys would fall for it. And they don't even wear pants!

:lol:

Of course, the First Ones are aloof and proud. I guess I see it a bit like the Lumati situation; they know what Ivanova's doing, but they're hardly going to admit that "lesser" races could give them advice or screw them around. So they settle in the end for a game of "we're pretending we're making the decisions and so to avoid having you give us instructions, we're playing your little game- you "tricked us" into doing it your way, okay?-though don't think we're really tricked; this is just our way to agree while saving face and not being led along by you children. Our double-think trumps both your advice and your trickery!".

Or something like that. I admit I haven't watched the episode in some time. Maybe the Walkers simply don't care how lesser races see them? They might truly consider a point of honour with the Vorlons far more important than anything the child races might think of them. Let the humans think we're ridiculously petty- what do they matter?

Best part of the episode?
GARIBALDI: I can't read Narn.
G'KAR: Learn!

:lol:

G'kar often gets the "best part of the episode" award, doesn't he?
 
Blondie McNiceboobs shows up on the station and makes the audience aware in no uncertain terms that Earth's leadership is up to no good. She also gets her tits out, which earned this episode half a star. :techman:

(No, not really.)

Not in this episode, but the actress has been in quite a few....seedier productions.
 
Meanwhile... Ivanova and Ron Moore go searching for a giant stone head that lives in a Christmas tree ornament in order to convince it to fight against the Shadows. The giant stone head says no (well, technically it says "zog"), so Ivanova uses reverse-psychology to trick it into fighting. I'm sorry, but when in the history of ever has reverse-psychology actually worked? :wtf: Am I supposed to believe that this ancient race from billions of years ago is going to fall for the oldest and most played-out trick in the book? If so they're not going to be much help once the war starts, all the Shadows need to do is use the old "Your fly is open" manoeuvre and these guys would fall for it. And they don't even wear pants!

Well, it makes sense if they're French.
 
For me, the big Interesting Question posed in "Passing" was, if you believe in the soul, or at least that there is something intrinsic to humanity beyond the physicalness of the body and pure brain chemistry... what does Mindwiping/Death of Personality mean for the soul? That was Brother Edward's big question-- even if "he" had no agency for the crimes, is he still answerable for them? Does the mark on his soul go beyond that of his memory or personality? And, in terms of larger themes of Babylon 5, is it the job of a righteous man (like, say, Sheridan) to take responsibility for things that are beyond his culpability?
 
For me, the big Interesting Question posed in "Passing" was, if you believe in the soul, or at least that there is something intrinsic to humanity beyond the physicalness of the body and pure brain chemistry... what does Mindwiping/Death of Personality mean for the soul? That was Brother Edward's big question-- even if "he" had no agency for the crimes, is he still answerable for them? Does the mark on his soul go beyond that of his memory or personality?

Oh, I agree there are a lot of interesting aspects to the character of Brother Edward and his experiences, particularly given that the character is deeply religious. I also agree that the questions raised by the Death of Personality are interesting and worthy ones. I don't fault the ideas behind the episode, more the execution and the way in which the social implications of this punishment are brushed aside in favour of the individual and theological, when to me they need to be the focus. Focus on individual character or theological reality, no matter how compelling, just don't work for me in context because the very concept of mindwipe requires (in my opinion) a far wider focus on the attitudes prevalent in that society. I also feel that the very idea of the mind-wipe takes the guts out of any story featuring forgiveness, repentance or the like as important thematic concerns (and any talk of Christianity and the soul can't help but touch on those themes, which I think clash with the core concept of the mind-wipe in the first place). It just doesn't all hold together. The episode might be read as making that very point on some level, but ultimately I feel too much was put in without thought as to how well it all played off everything else. Maybe this is, for me at least, an example of B5 trying too hard? There's much worthiness in there, but the overall episode just feels...off.
 
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Still, the video evidence showing President Clark was involved in the plot to kill President Santiago was a bit too clear-cut evil for my tastes. In fact, it's so evil I feel it must be a fake, because nobody would be stupid enough to say "I hated Santiago so much!" to camera if they're part of a conspiracy to kill the President. The correct response is to say "Noted", hang up and then let out a sigh that's half-way between relief and remorse. No, the video of Clark is so unsubtle that it has to be a fake planted there by the Shadows so that members of the counter-conspiracy will come forward, that way it will be easier for the government to find them.

Did you happen to notice the voice on the other end of the line? There's no such thing as an unsecured call to that guy. The only reason they got it was because of the machine and even then, as Draal said, a normal human shouldn't have been able to do that. You'll find out why she could later in the season.

Also keep in mind that Clark's ambition greatly outstrips his intellect. He's not a super genius criminal mastermind, he's a politician with some shady connection to Psi Corps who was asked "what do you want?" When he made that transmission he wasn't the President, he was a frustrated little Caesar wannabe who could hardly believe Christmas had come early. So if it seams a little reckless to say what he did in a way that could be recorded, keep in mind what it took to get it and that he's not exceptionally bright.

Meanwhile... Ivanova and Ron Moore go searching for a giant stone head that lives in a Christmas tree ornament in order to convince it to fight against the Shadows. The giant stone head says no (well, technically it says "zog"), so Ivanova uses reverse-psychology to trick it into fighting. I'm sorry, but when in the history of ever has reverse-psychology actually worked? :wtf: Am I supposed to believe that this ancient race from billions of years ago is going to fall for the oldest and most played-out trick in the book? If so they're not going to be much help once the war starts, all the Shadows need to do is use the old "Your fly is open" manoeuvre and these guys would fall for it. And they don't even wear pants!

I think JMS said that it wasn't the reverse psychology that worked so much as the sheer effrontery that she'd even try it that swayed them. Remember what these guys think of the aloof, snobbish elitists that are the Vorlons and their decision makes more sense.
 
For me, the big Interesting Question posed in "Passing" was, if you believe in the soul, or at least that there is something intrinsic to humanity beyond the physicalness of the body and pure brain chemistry... what does Mindwiping/Death of Personality mean for the soul? That was Brother Edward's big question-- even if "he" had no agency for the crimes, is he still answerable for them? Does the mark on his soul go beyond that of his memory or personality? And, in terms of larger themes of Babylon 5, is it the job of a righteous man (like, say, Sheridan) to take responsibility for things that are beyond his culpability?

Exactly. And I would further add that it's fairly clear that who you are, according to the ep, is more than messing around with physical elements in the brain. There IS a you there, not just a cleverly put together piece of tissue and electrochemicals.

Dollhouse dealt in similar territory. Even though you had these dolls that could be programmed, with personalities and skills put in and taken out, there WAS a "you" underneath there, despite all the mucking about being done.

That's bold and I like that. And if there is a "you" there, it makes the question of forgiveness and remission of sin all the more important.

If there is no "you" there, it makes it all but irrelevant.
 
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