Should they bring back Janeway?

[Brit]

Keep her dead, but tell an occasional story from when she was alive.

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stories from the TV series era (or even post-series, but pre-BD) are sure to satisfy Janeway fans while still keeping the "current" direction intact.

That is not good enough, it's like offering rotten scraps to starving people. It's a cruel compromise and uneacceptable. Why don't you have them kill Picard or Sisko and then only allow their fans flashback stories.

We are Janeway fans, we deserve better than hand-me-downs or somone elses discards.

Why don't we reboot the entire thing and then give you occasional stories about this universe, should be good enough for you if you think your compromise is good enough for us.

Brit

 

[RonG]

Keep her dead, but tell an occasional story from when she was alive.

this

stories from the TV series era (or even post-series, but pre-BD) are sure to satisfy Janeway fans while still keeping the "current" direction intact.

That is not good enough, it's like offering rotten scraps to starving people. It's a cruel compromise and uneacceptable. Why don't you have them kill Picard or Sisko and then only allow their fans flashback stories.

why is it "cruel"?

as for killing other captains, I offer this:

1. Kirk was killed in Generations, and we got (and get) plenty of kirk stories, and even a few with his old crew after his death (Vulcan's *noun* series, for example)

2. Sisko was also "dead" for the start of the DS9R - didn't mean there were no stories left to be told. Even after he returned, he was at best in a "supporting" role..

On a personal note, I thought Picard was going to be killed at the end of the Destiny trilogy, and while I'm a fan, I was also intrigued on the direction TNG would take afterwards.

Why don't we reboot the entire thing and then give you occasional stories about this universe, should be good enough for you if you think your compromise is good enough for us.

As long as there are *quality* stories, sure - why not?
In the case of the DS9R or NF, "occasional stories" is what we've been getting for years now...

 

[Christopher]

Because we want the stories to include Janeway, a character we know and love, not someone "new" that is only a pale imitation.

First off, why assume a new character is meant to be an imitation at all? Why can't it just be a new character?

Second... part of love is dealing with loss. Eventually, you always lose the people you love, and accepting that they're gone doesn't mean you love them any less. If anything, I think that Full Circle, a novel dealing with the Voyager crew's reactions to Janeway's death, celebrated their love for Kathryn Janeway far more than any story ever told while Janeway was alive.

If you really love someone, it has to be for better or worse. It has to be a willingness to commit to loving them even at the risk of pain and loss. If you're unwilling to face the pain and loss, if your love is conditional on never being hurt, then you're not really letting yourself love wholeheartedly. So don't assume you love Janeway more than those of us who accept her death. If anything, I think it would dishonor the character to cheapen her death with a cavalier resurrection. It wouldn't express love for Janeway, only love for the status quo.

 

[F. King Daniel]

You're only assuming her resurrection would be cavalier. It doesn't have to be a trashy "Kathy's back to save the day!". It could be the logical, meaningful end to some epic story. Not every Captain-back-from-the-grave story has to be like the nutty Shatnerverse.

Although I understand what you're saying and agree, death never has to be final in sci-fi. Bringing someone back doesn't have to cheapen their death or sacrifices. That only happens when it's done badly.

 

[RonG]

Janeway's ressurection would only prove that nothing can happen to the established characters, and only serve to safeguard the status quo IMO.

It's going to take a lot of the excitement out of Trek Lit, as far as I'm concerned...

can't we move forward?

 

[Christopher]

Although I understand what you're saying and agree, death never has to be final in sci-fi. Bringing someone back doesn't have to cheapen their death or sacrifices. That only happens when it's done badly.

I don't agree. If you introduce a massive change in a story and then just reset it rather than facing its consequences, that's a copout and it cheapens the whole storytelling process. This attitude that any death can be reversed at any time is far too pervasive in SF, fantasy, and comics these days, and acted on far too often. Even if it's true that a single such story here and there might be doable in a way that minimizes the cheapness of it, it's just been done far too often by now. It's already too cheap and hackneyed a plot device to be redeemable.

 

[stonester1]

Agreed. Plenty of examples of that.

The story of the "Death of the Phoenix" was such a groundbreaker in comics, and bringing her back, especially the cheap, contrived way they did, put a dent in a comics classic.

Now we see "deaths" as marketing tools (Superman, Batman, Captain America), when we KNOW there is NO intention to leave them dead.

I call foul.

 

[JarodRussell]

Because we want the stories to include Janeway, a character we know and love, not someone "new" that is only a pale imitation.

First off, why assume a new character is meant to be an imitation at all? Why can't it just be a new character?

Second... part of love is dealing with loss. Eventually, you always lose the people you love, and accepting that they're gone doesn't mean you love them any less.

That's what I was asking about the new movie. Why Kirk and Spock, why not new characters?

 

[stonester1]

Different subject, different context.

 

[JarodRussell]

Different subject, different context.

The subject is: bring back favorite characters or keep them dead?

The context is: why should a new character be a pale imitation of an old one? Christopher argued in favor of new and fresh characters, and that all good things must come to an end, and I added to the discussion that the franchise went into the other direction not to create new characters, but to re-use old ones. Because the audience is familiar with them, and new characters wouldn't be as successful, etc...

 

[langdonboom]

We're talking about a serialized set of novels based on a TV show -- not actual human beings. So the question for me really is - why not bring her back if we enjoy reading stories about her character, and want to see her face new challenges in the current ST universe?

We were somehow able to love every Star Trek episode before this knowing full well that none of the main characters would really be in any mortal danger (despite their being put there every week!), and yet here we are loving the show enough to write on a chat board dedicated to it. If we can use our imaginations this way to pleasurable effect all these years, why can't we do the same thing to Janeway?

Why can't we extend the same sense of good-natured playing along with the reality of a story to accept a character coming back from "the dead" especially if we like her (only if we like her!) and want to see new stories with her? I do not believe anything can retroactively remove the pleasure I had at reading a story of her death (which I did!) - I read it, loved it (including the Voyager crew's reactions), and now my life goes on. Bring me more Janeway stories! Time goes in the forward direction and nothing can change what I loved already in those books, not even a 'bad' return of the character (such as in the Dark Phoenix example).

The bottom line is, reading sci-fi of this serialized nature requires a bit of imagination, and the stakes are going to be what they are, and "will they live or won't they" is ultimately the cheapest drama that doesn't need to be relied upon (clearly!) for Star Trek to be great entertainment. Seems to me the great writers over the years can find a way to make compelling reading/viewing without the need for characters to die and stay dead. Rather, I come to Star Trek to read about old friends again and again - not to say there's no room for new characters, of course there is, but that doesn't mean you need to create easy drama by subtracting things that work (for some; clearly others hate Janeway, and of course have their reasons.)

 

[Judith Sisko]

...it's just been done far too often by now. It's already too cheap and hackneyed a plot device to be redeemable.

When watching What You Leave Behind, I remember shedding a few tears during the scene where Jake is staring out the window at the end. I shed them again when I read the novelization.

Now, I can appreciate why Avery Brooks wanted Sisko to return and I enjoyed Unity immensely, but... not only bringing Sisko back, but when he was brought back stretched it a bit for me.

In the Avatar books and the Mission Gamma series, I liked Elias Vaughn as a character and I liked where the authors were taking Kira and Ezri, but I think those characters were diminished a little bit with Sisko's return and their respective potential character arcs were waylaid.

Moving this same train of thought to Voyager, I think some of Chakotay's best character development is in Full Circle and Unworthy. I particularly like the Chakotay-Cambridge dynamic. If Janeway returned in even the most miniscule role, her presence would be so commanding (meaning predominate, not 'being in command' - no pun intended) that dynamic would be affected, as, I would think, the entire command structure of the DQ fleet. The original Voyager characters are dealing with her loss, becoming stronger, more decisive, and believing in themselves more without her.

Chakotay would be relegated to sharing his opinions but Janeway doing what she wants to do anyway and to him pining after Janeway (because somehow in the new status quo, she wouldn't see it appropriate for them to continue with their relationship.) Is that really what we want?

 

[captcalhoun]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the Janeway hardcore are back!!!!

*runs screaming into the night*

 

[es!]

Bring her back.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Because we want the stories to include Janeway, a character we know and love, not someone "new" that is only a pale imitation.

First off, why assume a new character is meant to be an imitation at all? Why can't it just be a new character?

Second... part of love is dealing with loss. Eventually, you always lose the people you love, and accepting that they're gone doesn't mean you love them any less.

That's what I was asking about the new movie. Why Kirk and Spock, why not new characters?

And this has what to do with whether or not to bring Janeway back?

While I respect you right to complain about the new movie, could you please keep it confinded to threads that actually deal with the new movie?

 

[JarodRussell]

First off, why assume a new character is meant to be an imitation at all? Why can't it just be a new character?

Second... part of love is dealing with loss. Eventually, you always lose the people you love, and accepting that they're gone doesn't mean you love them any less.

That's what I was asking about the new movie. Why Kirk and Spock, why not new characters?

And this has what to do with whether or not to bring Janeway back?

Kirk died, yet Shatner brought him back (non-canon), and later, canon, Abrams rebooted to tell more stories with Kirk and Spock. And obviously this strategy works.

So why keep Janeway dead? You can bring her back from the dead, or tell more stories that take place before her death.


And Christopher said that it's just natural that characters die and never return. And I personally find it interesting how the tie-in literature goes that way, while the movie part of the franchise goes the other way.

While I respect you right to complain about the new movie, could you please keep it confinded to threads that actually deal with the new movie?

If you think what I say doesn't add anything and if you think you already know why, then you can chose to ignore it. Yet you reply anyway. Why?

 

[RonG]

As far as using the last movie as an example, I don't think it's applicable, as Janeway fans wish for her return in the "prime" continuity, as a continuation of her previous adventures.

The NuTrek (re)launch is a different reality / timeline / continuity altogether, which brings to light a different discussion about reboots, sequels and originality in our media and entertainment industry. While interesting, that's not what this discussion is about IMO.

Just to give my two cents on JarodRussel's post, if by any chance, a VOY re-imagining would be in the cards (as with all Trek series, as far as I'm concerned), to be handled in a way *I fell* is right and true to its potential (something the show missed out on IMHO), I would be all for the "new adventures of Janeway and Co."

As for the *current* novel continuity, as I said earlier - keep Janeway dead and move forward. The String Theory trilogy showed us that series-era stories can still be done, so fans of the show and/or Janeway can still enjoy their favorites.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Wow: 43 say keep her dead and now 40 say bring her back. The gap has closed.

 

[Brit]

As for the *current* novel continuity, as I said earlier - keep Janeway dead and move forward. The String Theory trilogy showed us that series-era stories can still be done, so fans of the show and/or Janeway can still enjoy their favorites.

No bring her back, and then allow the fans of the dead Janeway line have the flash backs. If it is such a wonderful idea for us then is should also be a wonderful idea for you and you should be glad to accept that compromise.

A flash back is only that and the end is still a dead Janeway, and that is unacceptable.

Brit

(who never left here, and is here watching the true Janeway fans come back to be counted. We are taking lessons on how to do this from Jacquline Lichtenberg herself.)

 

[Thrawn]

Just a friendly perspective reminder: an internet poll of 83 people has exactly dick-all to do with sales or large-scale fan preferences, regardless of which way it goes.

And even if there WAS huge overwhelming support for Janeway coming back, there are just as many instances where "giving the fans what they want" made a franchise suck as there are instances where going in a new direction made a franchise suck. There's no right answer here.