Aft torpedo tubes

[Timo]

FWIW, the presence of aft torpedo tubes on old submarines was not a straightforward issue of giving the ability to fire aft. Even back then, subs would be able to turn fast enough to bring forward torpedoes to bear on victim ships. (Firing against another submarine was science fiction, despite several war movie scenes depicting this impossibly difficult feat of arms. The first time a sub managed to hit another, unmaneuvering sub with torps was during the last month of WWII, basically by accident.)

Rather, the aft tubes (and amidship tubes) of the old subs were there because the submarines were seriously short on space in which to cram further tubes. Any location would do, including the aft ones, even though there was no particular tactical reason for firing a "parting shot" or "pursuit discourager" towards your six. Typically, torpedo computers could not cope well with aft launches anyway, so those were more like "blind shots"; a skipper would expend his aft torps first, against easy targets, in order to save the forward torps for serious work.

On NX-01, one might argue that aft tubes existed for similar reasons: added numbers of tubes is the first reason, tubes pointing in convenient directions the distant second. On a ship as big and advanced as NCC-1701, though, it sounds implausible that one'd have to install extra tubes in unoptimal directions.

Having aft tubes would probably be a good idea in warp flight; we don't see much maneuvering at those speeds (even though Kirk seems to think warp=maneuverability in "Elaan of Troyius", and speaks of "pivoting" at warp), yet warp pursuit is a common tactical situation... Might explain why Kirk doesn't bother with using those weapons even if they have been installed, as there are no warp chases in TOS where Kirk would be the fleeing party!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Londo]

There are signs to Torp Bay 4 that can be seen in TWOK it is possible these are rearward facing. However I rather like the idea that these are forward facing and that two torpedo bays feed into each forward tube resulting in the two shots from one tube seen in TSFS.

 

[Timo]

Two side-by-said torpedo bays, each with two levels, would indeed make a great deal of sense in ST2:TWoK. Never mind that the insides of the ship would be a bit larger than the outsides in that case; science fiction ships are always more or less like that, and the dimensional violation wouldn't be particularly bad in this case.

One could say that Torp Bays 2 and 4 would be the lower levels, and the unseen Torp Bays 1 and 3 the upper ones. That wouldn't solve all the problems, I guess, because we see that Torp Bay 4 is identical in shape to Torp Bay 2 - that is, there's what looks like a docking port at the exact same (aft portside) corner. But we could argue that the docking port lookalike is merely a pressureproof door between the port and starboard bays, a sensible addition to the design.

Khan destroys the portside bay, and thereafter the portside torpedo tube never fires. Khan's torpedo pod is blown away by a torpedo fired from the starboard tube. Spock is buried in a coffin fired from the starboard tube. Spock's burial takes place in the undamaged Torp Bay 2, so we could argue it's the starboard lower bay.

OTOH, Kirk is originally seen boarding the ship through a portside docking port, and then holding a ceremony in Torp Bay 2. Should Torp Bay 2 be portside after all, then? Not necessarily; if there are two side-by-side bays, Kirk could well enter through the portside one, then walk to the starboard bay for the ceremony.

Are we on the clear now? Alas, no. Torp Bay 4 is the one briefly glimpsed during preparations for the nebula fight, after Khan has devastated the portside bay. Furthermore, Bay 4 is seen having a sign next to the aft starboard door that says Something Something 3 on a smaller, illegible font, as if that door led to a facility with the number 3 - possibly our putative Torp Bay 3.

So, what's left? We could say that Torp Bays 1 (port) and 2 (starboard) were in the ship's neck, whereas Torp Bays 3 (port) and 4 (starboard) were in the saucer, in the location where the ship used to have the launchers in TOS. Perhaps those older launchers were never removed? The saucer underside certainly has its share of hatches and holes that could be for the saucer launchers. And perhaps those were never modernized much, so they are normally considered useless secondary armament and only activated in desperation.

Or then Torp Bays 3 and 4 could point aft. Or then they are training bays, since this is a training ship, and the torpedo personnel in training simply got extremely confused...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gagarin]

Or we never saw the "4" sign. =)

 

[Herbert1]

Matt Jefferies re-fit design for the USS Enteprise for Star Trek: Phase II does not appear to have aft torpedo tubes. Mike Minor and Andrew Probert developed the re-fit Enterprise design for Star Trek: The Motion Picture from the Matt Jefferies design.

Can't very well say that there are aft tubes on the re-fit USS Enterprise, because they are clearly not there.

Link to Phase II drawing by Matt Jefferies:
http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/Phase2Drawings.htm

They don't appear on the model built by Magicam or on the Star Trek: The Motion Picture Blueprints by David Kimble.

Thanks for all of your speculation. I was really looking for backstage information or Jefferies' comments on the re-design or those of Mike Minor or Andrew Probert concerning the lack of aft firing tubes.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Y'know, should a story ever have required an aft-firing torpedo they probably would have just had a little panel on the rear of the ship slide away revealing a tube, whether it was in the original plans or not.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Besides, the refit had rather prominent phasers right above the hangar doors.

As for the necessity of aft weapons, well, look at the situation the Defiant was in. Held by a tractor beam, close in; nothing says "LET GO!" better than a photon torpedo or full power phaser blast in the face at point blank range.

 

[Mister_Atoz]

I've heard that one of the "Ships of the Line" calenders featured an image of the refit Constitution Class with an aft facing launcher, I've been looking everywhere for that image short of searching ebay for expired calenders. Does anyone have one?

Also, though clearly not on the model, I've always imagined that the area directly behind the the forward launchers contains a single tube hidden under a hatch. There is a little square patch of nothing that looks like it could fit one.

 

[Timo]

The good old Ships of the Star Fleet booklet featured a variant of the refit design with a very explicit aft tube, plus a somewhat modified impulse deck. The variants in that book were generally based on alternate production sketches and other not-quite-finalized versions of the ships that ended up on screen - but I don't know the exact source for this USS America variant.

The aft end of the torp area in Probert's design has that suggestive flat area that could feature a covered aft tube, but one then wonders why just one out of three tubes would be covered... There are also two darkened areas that look like exhausts of some sort; SJ's Mr Scott's Guide suggests these would be exhausting something generated in the torpedo launch process, and in fact balancing the "kick" of the torpedo, although that sounds a bit silly. These could be simple badass thrusters, or then small-calibre, aft-firing torpedo launchers. Ditto for four similar exhausts on top of the secondary hull, pristine and uncharred but otherwise similar to the neck ones.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gagarin]

The good old Ships of the Star Fleet booklet featured a variant of the refit design with a very explicit aft tube, plus a somewhat modified impulse deck. The variants in that book were generally based on alternate production sketches and other not-quite-finalized versions of the ships that ended up on screen - but I don't know the exact source for this USS America variant.

The aft end of the torp area in Probert's design has that suggestive flat area that could feature a covered aft tube, but one then wonders why just one out of three tubes would be covered... There are also two darkened areas that look like exhausts of some sort; SJ's Mr Scott's Guide suggests these would be exhausting something generated in the torpedo launch process, and in fact balancing the "kick" of the torpedo, although that sounds a bit silly. These could be simple badass thrusters, or then small-calibre, aft-firing torpedo launchers. Ditto for four similar exhausts on top of the secondary hull, pristine and uncharred but otherwise similar to the neck ones.

Timo Saloniemi

That made me laugh.

 

[BK613]

Are we on the clear now? Alas, no. Torp Bay 4 is the one briefly glimpsed during preparations for the nebula fight, after Khan has devastated the portside bay. Furthermore, Bay 4 is seen having a sign next to the aft starboard door that says Something Something 3 on a smaller, illegible font, as if that door led to a facility with the number 3 - possibly our putative Torp Bay 3.

Actually we see torp bay 4 before Khan hits the neck's torp area. TB 4 is shown as Kirk orders "Battle stations" right after beaming aboard from Regula. Khan damages the torp bay in the nebula battle ("Evasive starboard!")

So, what's left? We could say that Torp Bays 1 (port) and 2 (starboard) were in the ship's neck, whereas Torp Bays 3 (port) and 4 (starboard) were in the saucer, in the location where the ship used to have the launchers in TOS. Perhaps those older launchers were never removed? The saucer underside certainly has its share of hatches and holes that could be for the saucer launchers. And perhaps those were never modernized much, so they are normally considered useless secondary armament and only activated in desperation.

Or then Torp Bays 3 and 4 could point aft. Or then they are training bays, since this is a training ship, and the torpedo personnel in training simply got extremely confused...

Timo Saloniemi

I like the launchers in the saucer but the reversal of one and two is complicated by another sign (image)

 

[Unicron]

I think bays 3 & 4 are actually on deck 78.

 

[Timo]

...But is it above or below C Deck?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

...Well there was no power below C Deck, if we go by the book...

 

[publiusr]

The good old Ships of the Star Fleet booklet featured a variant of the refit design with a very explicit aft tube

I think the Constitution II, (directly from Matt Jefferies Phase II concept) had one ship that had but a single large, forward facing torpedo tube (AWALT?)

I always guessed that the Enterprise might have a limited, one or two shot disguised torpedo under the shuttle bay with the ports covered over. The Defiant's aft weapons also made a lot of sense. I always thought that both phasers and photons came from what is know called the lower sensor dome-thinking that was an variable energy emitter.

If this is so, the dome light atop the saucer, and above the shuttlebay would have two ports each, explaining the six tubes I keep hearing about. These were smaller weapons than potentially antimatter soaked hardshell pho-torps in STTMP and afterwards--although their yields are kept low in close ship to ship battles.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

You know, I've never figured out why they have torpedo tubes rectangular like that in cross section. The cylindrical, missile-like torpedoes used in ENT make much more sense to me.

 

[Timo]

I think the Constitution II, (directly from Matt Jefferies Phase II concept) had one ship that had but a single large, forward facing torpedo tube (AWALT?)

The ship was apparently modeled after the one actually built for Phase II - but IIRC that model never received a completed torpedo deck, thus making it possible to speculate what might have gone there. Old Jeffries concept drawings featured a couple of alternatives, one of which was that single big tube. Not "Awalt" by its fictional manufacturer name (those were the twin launchers under the bridge as postulated by Franz Joseph in his Constitution blueprints) but something dubbed "Keindoffer-Klaatsen ZEUS Mk 4"; the two-tube alternative was "Skat-Rar Mk 6". I don't know where Todd Guenther got all those names, but some might have been preexisting fan material while others were of his own making.

I like the idea of the domes being associated with the weapons emplacements - but I don't like the idea of them being the emplacements. The Defiant had distinct phaser towers that popped up from both sides of the aft dome, and supposedly similar turrets popped up from the saucer top and bottom sides for forward firing. Perhaps each grouping of such pop-up phasers was accompanied by a (smaller or larger) sensor dome for the all-important targeting sensors?

Torpedo tubes hidden behind hatches make quite a bit of sense. If Archer's ship had four forward, Kirk's bigger one might well have had six. Archer's had two aft (plus something in the aft pod, too); Kirk's might have had three or four aft, perhaps on the upper surface of the secondary hull or the base of the neck (either position would match the launch we see in that ENT episode). Nothing precludes Kirk's ship from having additional launchers elsewhere. Perhaps there indeed were a couple directly under the bridge, like Franz Joseph's blueprints suggest?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Robert April]

I just rewatched "In a Mirror, Darkly" and I'm pretty sure nothing "popped up." The beams seemed to eminate from ring surrounding the aft dome, just like the forward phasers seem to eminate from the ring surrounding the lower dome on the saucer.

 

[Mister_Atoz]

It's hard to see through the glow, but it does seem like something is moving there just before they fire, but the beams do seem to be coming from the same location as the ball turrets on the TMP model.

 

[ngc7293]

Later Federation starship designs have an aft firing tube or tubes. For example, USS Reliant had two fore tubes and two aft tubes in the roll-bar pod.

Reliant also had somewhat heavier phaser armament, larger shuttle bays, and a suspicious lack of a navigational deflector. It's probably more of an AC-130 to Enterprise's B-52.

Interesting comparing the Miranda to the AC-130. It reminded me to think that if we were comparing AC-130's, use the Spectre and trade the Miranda in for the Soyuz Class (assuming those pointy things on the turrets are guns not communication arrays like so many people think).