darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
I've seen orthos of the official mesh that Rob B posted some time ago, and there are definitely "nipples" on either side of the aft dome that are the phaser turrets.
Aft torpedo tubes
- Thread starter Herbert1
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I've seen orthos of the official mesh that Rob B posted some time ago, and there are definitely "nipples" on either side of the aft dome that are the phaser turrets.
Just checked on trekcore.com, and yeah, there is a little nubbin next to the "homing beacon" (I'm beginning to like the idea that it's another sensor array, like the domes on the saucer).
Not necessarily binding, though, since it's not the Enterprise.
Not necessarily binding, though, since it's not the Enterprise.
It's a shame those two nubbins that you refer to were not incorporated on the TOS-R Enterprise (well at least not for the first season HD ones anyway.) But that would be the logical place if one were to use the TMP Enterprise and work backwards to figure out where the aft phasers would be.
One might argue that Starfleet would make some effort to hide the phaser emitters behind cleverly camouflaged rather than blatantly marked gunports. Makes it much harder for the enemy to do the usual "Target their weapons!" trick. 
Also, it would be a nice reverse of the sailing ship era practice: while those old ships had false gunports painted onto the sides to make them look more frightening, Starfleet ships might try to look less frightening by hiding their weapons...
Timo Saloniemi
Also, it would be a nice reverse of the sailing ship era practice: while those old ships had false gunports painted onto the sides to make them look more frightening, Starfleet ships might try to look less frightening by hiding their weapons...
Timo Saloniemi
One might argue that Starfleet would make some effort to hide the phaser emitters behind cleverly camouflaged rather than blatantly marked gunports. Makes it much harder for the enemy to do the usual "Target their weapons!" trick.
Also, it would be a nice reverse of the sailing ship era practice: while those old ships had false gunports painted onto the sides to make them look more frightening, Starfleet ships might try to look less frightening by hiding their weapons...
Timo Saloniemi
And, in keeping with MJ's philosophy, "weapons behind gunports" also could mean maintaining said weapons in a shirt-sleeve environment rather than going outside...
... and the same could probably be said for the Kelvin, judging by the size of those phaser turrets and the armored hatches that hide them.
That's right. I think the Stategic design guys also had something called a Back-up phaser near to torp as well--thus explaining Ent-D having a single big tube, and the phaser we saw come from it (by mistake) in the Darmok episode.
^ Arguably, the biggest blooper to make air in the history of the series, especially for a show that had been on the air for as long as TNG had been at that point.
^ Well, it was never firmly established that 23rd century Klingons still use photon torpedoes. Those could be PLASMA torpedoes, in which case "Way of the Warrior" is the discharge of plasma cannons.
OTOH, the FX guys in that particular episode made a fairly huge number of dumb mistakes in that big battle scene even when they had clear notes from the designers how things were supposed to work, so go figure.
OTOH, the FX guys in that particular episode made a fairly huge number of dumb mistakes in that big battle scene even when they had clear notes from the designers how things were supposed to work, so go figure.
I saw in the special features of TWOK that somebody said that until the Reliant there were no aft torpedo tubes on any starfleet ships (modelled to that date, that is). The general concensus was that if the Enterprise wanted to hit a ship behind it then it would launch out the front and it would swing around to the back and hit the target. Originally, torpedos were supposed to move at near warp speeds hitting targets at great distances while the ships were also moving at near warp speeds. This means that it really doesnt matter where you put the yube, the torpedo is going to fly around in several maneuvers before it hits a target.
This was later changed because fans like to see more ship on ship action rather than ships shooting at each other from afar, IMHO what made TWOK so cool. They explained both close quarter engagements to be 1. because at first the Enterprise had no idea foe and not friend, allowing reliant to get close and 2. putting them in a nebula that kills the sensors for long range shots. The reliant apparently had aft torpedo tubes specifically to have shots where the reliant fired backwards rather than having the torpedos swing around...ie a writers decision.
This was later changed because fans like to see more ship on ship action rather than ships shooting at each other from afar, IMHO what made TWOK so cool. They explained both close quarter engagements to be 1. because at first the Enterprise had no idea foe and not friend, allowing reliant to get close and 2. putting them in a nebula that kills the sensors for long range shots. The reliant apparently had aft torpedo tubes specifically to have shots where the reliant fired backwards rather than having the torpedos swing around...ie a writers decision.
I'd argue the red Klingon beams in "Way of the Warrior" were a very deliberate choice rather than an innocent goof, as they are so distinct from all the other Klingon weapon output in that episode. And it sort of makes sense that the very oldest ships in that fleet would be the ones with the most extreme modifications, as their original fighting gear would by now be hopelessly outdated. In WWII, obsolete light cruisers were converted to anti-aircraft cruisers by removing all of their ship-to-ship weaponry and installing custom AA guns. Some destroyers were converted to supporting amphibious attacks as superfast transports. Perhaps those old battle cruisers became special "space station bombardment ships" with weapons dedicated to bringing down Cardassian installation shields?
The "Darmok" thing is really embarrassing - yet one might argue that our heroes had a very good dramatic need to surprise the enemy. They were improvising an all-new weapon (albeit created from a phaser) and planning on firing it without giving the enemy any advance warning. They also intended to fire it at the enemy's underbelly.
Now, the E-D has no preexisting phasers that could have fired at the Tamarian underside unless the hero ship first maneuvered and thus alerted the enemy. So in theory, LaForge could have had all the reason in the world to build his special weapon out of spares, then drag it into the torpedo tube (which supposedly can launch big probes and other such hardware) and fire it from there for the vital surprise shot...
Timo Saloniemi
The "Darmok" thing is really embarrassing - yet one might argue that our heroes had a very good dramatic need to surprise the enemy. They were improvising an all-new weapon (albeit created from a phaser) and planning on firing it without giving the enemy any advance warning. They also intended to fire it at the enemy's underbelly.
Now, the E-D has no preexisting phasers that could have fired at the Tamarian underside unless the hero ship first maneuvered and thus alerted the enemy. So in theory, LaForge could have had all the reason in the world to build his special weapon out of spares, then drag it into the torpedo tube (which supposedly can launch big probes and other such hardware) and fire it from there for the vital surprise shot...
Timo Saloniemi
Um, what about the upper phaser array?
What about it? It could not have hit the enemy underbelly, the one and only target of our heroes. (They didn't want to destroy the Tamarians, they wanted to shut down their transporter jammer.)
The ventral strip was too high, too. And the secondary hull ventral strip could not have aimed up past the hull.
...Although this didn't stop the VFX people from drawing impossible impact angles for the beams. The beam from the torpedo tube hit from too low wrt the relative positions of the ships in the immediately preceding exterior shots.
Timo Saloniemi
The ventral strip was too high, too. And the secondary hull ventral strip could not have aimed up past the hull.
...Although this didn't stop the VFX people from drawing impossible impact angles for the beams. The beam from the torpedo tube hit from too low wrt the relative positions of the ships in the immediately preceding exterior shots.
Timo Saloniemi
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How the hell could the upper array NOT hit the underbelly of a ship that's at higher position?
With the TOS Enterprise having 6 torpedo tubes if you used cylindrical topedoes, those four windows on the underside of the TMP Enterprise saucer would make great spots for torpedo-tubes. With TMP you could stuff the other two on the neck-launcher
That's just it, though - the E-D was not below the Tamarian ship in the preceding shots. This is the shot they used most of the time, with minor variations:
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s5/5x02/darmok234.jpg
It seems the E-D saucer is level with the widest part of the Tamarian ship if not higher, and also very close to that ship's bow. Of course, on the E-D viewscreen the Tamarians appear to hover menacingly above our heroes, but the camera taking those shots could be at the bottom of the secondary hull for all we know.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo, if we accept your interpretation--that the Enterprise was not "below" the Tamarian ship, Enterprise would have to have been in a position some two hundred meters away from the Tamarian ship in order to necessitate that kind of angle. Any farther than that and it doesn't matter where your beams come from, you're not going to hit the underbelly to begin with.
To wit:
And unless the Enterprise is firing those shots at point blank range, this doesn't make a bit of difference.
I have to say, the conventional explanation of "VFX error" is VASTLY simpler in this case.
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