The Narada during Nero's impisonment?

[JarodRussell]

There are many possible explanations for what Nero and the Narada were doing all that time. I'd rather leave it vague than use the explanation where Klingons, once again, act like idiots.

Its what they do.

I always look back to that scene in TNG, where the Klingon captain tries to head-butt Data, as the moment where they went from being threatening adversaries to hilarious space cavemen.

People using a head-butt to knock someone out are cavemen? Not really. They have these ridges for a reason, and they'd be stupid not to use them in a fight.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

So THAT'S what the ridges were for!!!

 

[Peter the Younger]

Its what they do.

I always look back to that scene in TNG, where the Klingon captain tries to head-butt Data, as the moment where they went from being threatening adversaries to hilarious space cavemen.

People using a head-butt to knock someone out are cavemen? Not really. They have these ridges for a reason, and they'd be stupid not to use them in a fight.

No, people using head butt ridges to knock out a robot are cavemen.

 

[JarodRussell]

No, people using head butt ridges to knock out a robot are cavemen.

Data is not a robot.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Something to consider. Narada loses its warp travel capability from Kelvin's collision. Sensors blown all the hell and back. Primative astronomy used to fund the nearest star system that looks habitable. Charts all messed up from travel to the wormhole/blackhole.

Narada is able to move at max impulse--redlined--after repair, at nearly as fast as light speeds resulting in time dilation, so he wont have to wait the full 25 years after all. The system he was headed towards just happens to be a Klingon prison planet, we'll say. A brief stay, the Klingons don't learn much. Kelvin's scans of future tech are returned allowing for Fed ships to have a full 25 year advantage. The Klingon's just pick it up.

A brief stay to wait--not long--for Spock--then its time.
This explains why Nero didn't age much, and very little time seems to have passed.

That or that Nero is a Romulan who like Vulcan visibly age slower than humans because of their life span of at least two centuries.

Either way it makes little sense. Why was the Narada so heavily armored when they met the Kelvin (Nero states they are only miners. Today's oil platforms don't have torpedoes or cruise missiles, and they couldn't sink a 18th century battleship)?

Because its a ship not a oil platform. It travels around, near and through hostile territories and may meet up with pirates or other hostiles. As a mining ship is probably carries valuable cargo. It going to have some form of self defense like merchantmen and cargo vessels did in the age of sail and up to the 20th Century.

Plus Nero is again a Romulan, Romulans are kind of paranoid and militaristic so Nero having guns on his ship makes sense.

 

[Set Harth]

The Narada wasn't mining oil. It's possible they used torpedoes to break up asteroids.

 

[Sharr Khan]

The Narada wasn't mining oil. It's possible they used torpedoes to break up asteroids.

Indeed if you look at the "torpedoes" they seemed to be all about breaking up large rocks after the drill put a hole into them...

I can't recall any beam weapons on the Narada, which sort of fits with Nero declaring "This is a simple mining ship". Its powerful just cause its from 129 years in the future. To top it off more or less toothless as a planet killer without the red matter.

 

[rschrumpf]

Other than making a connection to the Kelvin; why was there a "Lightning Storm In Space" when Nero attacked Vulcan? The "Lightning Storm" was caused by the red matter/black hole but Nero didn't need to go through a black hole to get to Vulcan!

 

[David cgc]

That was the point where Spock Prime emerged. Kirk assumed the connection was direct (the Narada moves about via lightning storm), when it was actually was circumstantial (Nero needed Spock to emerge from his own anomaly before he could or would attack Vulcan), but the practical upshot was the same.

I actually kind of liked that Kirk was wrong about the details about his hunch. It bothers me sometimes when people in fiction make perfectly accurate deductions off of not-quite-enough information.

 

[rschrumpf]

Ok - I like that answer; that it was Spock Prime coming through his black hole.

 

[rschrumpf]

Onto another Black Hole question. The Enterprise was lurking near Saturn when Spock went to warp to escape the Nerada and then turned to face the Nerada. When the red matter created a new (giant) Black Hole near Saturn, wouldn't that create havoc for us poor Earthers in the same Solar System as this new giant Black Hole? Just a thought!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Onto another Black Hole question. The Enterprise was lurking near Saturn when Spock went to warp to escape the Nerada and then turned to face the Nerada. When the red matter created a new (giant) Black Hole near Saturn, wouldn't that create havoc for us poor Earthers in the same Solar System as this new giant Black Hole? Just a thought!

Orange cones and a detour sign.

 

[DonIago]

Onto another Black Hole question. The Enterprise was lurking near Saturn when Spock went to warp to escape the Nerada and then turned to face the Nerada. When the red matter created a new (giant) Black Hole near Saturn, wouldn't that create havoc for us poor Earthers in the same Solar System as this new giant Black Hole? Just a thought!

The whole point of Spock going to warp was so that when he faced the Narada they were no longer near Saturn.

 

[lawman]

Two points:

First, regarding "canon." All of this stubbornness about "if it wasn't on the screen, it didn't happen!" seems rather pointless to me. Do people really want to pretend those scenes haven't been shot (and viewed), those stories haven't been told (and read)?

AFAIC, there's only one key difference in the Trekverse between events that are canonical and those that aren't: only the former will be referred to on screen. But all the rest is still perfectly legit, IMHO, unless and until it's explicitly contradicted onscreen. In that regard, since O&K's story about Nero's imprisonment is what we have to work with (in both the deleted scenes and the comic), it seems only sensible to assume that's what happened. It's certainly no more badly written than the movie itself, after all (granting that's damning with very faint praise).

Second, trying to extract deductions from locational information in this film puts us in as bad a spot as Kirk in that awkward bridge scene. The writers seem to have no regard whatsoever for the concept that different places are in, well, different places. To wit:

• The supernova site where OldSpock and Nero disappeared was presumably in Romulan space (since Romulus was singled out as the only system destroyed).
• Nero materialized (with his "lightning storm") on the edge of Klingon space, just inside Federation territory.
• The battle with 47 Klingon ships took place near a Klingon prison planet, thus somewhere securely within Klingon space.
• OldSpock materialized (with his own lightning storm) in the Neutral Zone — i.e., at the edge of Romulan space, a completely separate border.
• The "seismic disturbance" on Vulcan took place at (duh) Vulcan, close to the center of Federation space.

These are five completely unrelated locations, with many light-years separating them. Yet Kirk immediately assumed there had to be a connection between the last four of these events, as if they were all right next door to one another. (Just as Vulcan seemed to be only minutes from Earth. And I won't even get into the visual-range ice-planet thing...)

Apparently the only place that's really remote in this version of Trek is the "Laurentian system," for reasons we are doomed never to learn.

---
Aside:

I am glad they didn't put 'much thought' into it. The fact it was fun, fast paced, and made tons of money was exactly what the doctor ordered.

*facepalm*
Got it. You like poorly thought-out movies, so long as they're flashy and profitable.

But this does not mean I have to like these kinds of movies. If wanting quality from my movies is nerdy, than I proudly call myself a nerd.

This.

 

[Devon]

These are five completely unrelated locations, with many light-years separating them. Yet Kirk immediately assumed there had to be a connection between the last four of these events, as if they were all right next door to one another.

Having actually paid attention to the film, the locations had nothing to do with his clues. He put the clues together from both the Romulan attack at Rura Penthe and the "lightning storm in space." He was right.

(Just as Vulcan seemed to be only minutes from Earth. And I won't even get into the visual-range ice-planet thing...)

Very wise.

Z*facepalm*
Got it. You like poorly thought-out movies, so long as they're flashy and profitable.

That's already an improvement on past Trek films.

Onto another Black Hole question. The Enterprise was lurking near Saturn when Spock went to warp to escape the Nerada and then turned to face the Nerada. When the red matter created a new (giant) Black Hole near Saturn, wouldn't that create havoc for us poor Earthers in the same Solar System as this new giant Black Hole? Just a thought!

They weren't near Saturn.

 

[Set Harth]

Just as Vulcan seemed to be only minutes from Earth.

Incorrect. The Earth-Vulcan duration was not specified.

The writers seem to have no regard whatsoever for the concept that different places are in, well, different places.

Just another carelessly desperate accusation with no basis in reality.

Yet Kirk immediately assumed there had to be a connection between the last four of these events, as if they were all right next door to one another.

A connection does not mean they are "right next door to one another". Of these "last four", the connection between #1 and #3 is obvious, and implies the connection between #1 and #2. The connection between these things and #4 is more of a leap, but is based on temporal - not physical - proximity.

( Oddly, the writers seem to believe that they are writing for a universe in which a ship may travel from one system to another at warp speed. Madness. )

You like poorly thought-out movies, so long as they're flashy and profitable

You hate effective movies, simply because they're popular. Got it.
( And how do you explain the people who liked the film before knowing anything about its ultimate "profitability"? Time travel? )

 

[DonIago]

^Predestination paradox!

 

[lawman]

Just as Vulcan seemed to be only minutes from Earth.

Incorrect. The Earth-Vulcan duration was not specified.

Hence my use of the word "seemed." I'm perfectly willing to chalk this particular bit up to bad editing (rather than bad writing) and assume the trip was longer... but the editing made it seem otherwise.

The writers seem to have no regard whatsoever for the concept that different places are in, well, different places.

Just another carelessly desperate accusation with no basis in reality.

Do you think that a demeaning jab at me is a substitute for an actual counter-argument? Why make this personal? I explained in some detail the markedly casual way the film references widely separated locations in space, and the "reality" behind my description was right on screen.

But if you insist on more detail...

Yet Kirk immediately assumed there had to be a connection between the last four of these events, as if they were all right next door to one another.

A connection does not mean they are "right next door to one another". Of these "last four", the connection between #1 and #3 is obvious, and implies the connection between #1 and #2. The connection between these things and #4 is more of a leap, but is based on temporal - not physical - proximity.

The connection between #1 and #3 is not "obvious" unless you assume that any reference to a "lightning storm in space" — a very colloquial and ambiguous description — must be referring to the same phenomenon, even if the references are from different speakers decades apart, in a universe known to be filled with all kinds of spacetime anomalies. The assumption is so counter-intuitive that it completely yanked me out of the movie when I saw it. (Far from the only scene to do so, I hasten to add.)

Even if you accept that, though, it doesn't actually imply a connection between #1 and #2, unless you assume there's only one super-powerful starship in existence (again counter-intuitive), even though you have reason to believe the ship(s) in question can be traced to the Romulan Empire, a technologically advanced spacefaring superpower. (Not that the Romulan identification was accounted for, since Nero never identified his race to the Kelvin, but I digress.)

The connection between these things and #4 is not merely a leap, it's completely nonexistent, unless you assume that things taking place at the same time many light-years apart must be causally related. Which is, once again, counter-intuitive and just outrageously illogical.

(Frankly, the fact that Chekov even mentioned events in the Neutral Zone as part of his shipwide announcement on the way to Vulcan is itself completely inexplicable. It's akin to "We're on our way to Haiti to help with Earthquake relief. Meanwhile, there was an unexpected bombing in Chechnya today." What was he doing, reading from an interstellar AP report?)

Put it all together with the fact that Kirk was actually wrong about his central clue, the second "lightning storm," which in reality had nothing to do with Nero's ship, and the chain of reasoning seems even more ridiculous.

( Oddly, the writers seem to believe that they are writing for a universe in which a ship may travel from one system to another at warp speed. Madness.)

As has been discussed, warp speed is not equivalent to "whatever the plot needs." Unless, again, you're a writer who's too lazy to care about the details. We know from basic logic and from all prior Trek history that these locations (within or on the borders of different interstellar empires) are remote from one another, even with FTL travel, but they're not treated that way by the characters.

You like poorly thought-out movies, so long as they're flashy and profitable

You hate effective movies, simply because they're popular. Got it.

Hey, another cheap shot! Who'da thunk it. I paraphrased RobertScorpio's remark fairly accurately. You don't actually defend his tastes, but instead caricature mine, in a way that's simultaneously wrong, absurd, and just irrelevant.

And while you're at it, would you care to define what you mean by "effective" in this context?

(And how do you explain the people who liked the film before knowing anything about its ultimate "profitability"? Time travel?)

I didn't and don't attempt to explain anyone. I was responding specifically to RobertScorpio's description of the criteria for his own personal tastes.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Two points:

First, regarding "canon." All of this stubbornness about "if it wasn't on the screen, it didn't happen!" seems rather pointless to me. Do people really want to pretend those scenes haven't been shot (and viewed), those stories haven't been told (and read)?

.

If they didn't make the final cut they aren't part of the story. Thats how Paramount/CBS defines canon.( and they are the only ones who have the authority) And pretty much every other film maker too. Same for books, TV shows and other art forms. Not to mention religon where books not included in the canon are apocryphal. Cut scenes may be part of the process but they not part the story anymore than a rough draft a book is the finished novel.

 

[Set Harth]

The connection between #1 and #3 is not "obvious" unless you assume that any reference to a "lightning storm in space" — a very colloquial and ambiguous description — must be referring to the same phenomenon

It's an obvious connection. Lightning storm in space = lightning storm in space. We're not talking proof, just the basis for Kirk's guesswork. The point in this case is that spatial proximity had nothing to do with it.

Even if you accept that, though, it doesn't actually imply a connection between #1 and #2, unless you assume there's only one super-powerful starship in existence (again counter-intuitive)

The connection is implied by the fact that the Kelvin attack took place on the edge of Klingon space and the ship was never heard from again, until it apparently destroyed 47 ships at a Klingon prison planet. Speculation about previously undocumented attacks by "super-powerful starships" between 2233 and 2258 is merely an appeal to ignorance even without the Romulan connection.

The connection between these things and #4 is not merely a leap, it's completely nonexistent, unless you assume that things taking place at the same time many light-years apart must be causally related.

No one said they took place at the same time, or that anything "must" be related; that's why I called it a leap. But you accept only two possibilities in a fallacious all-or-nothing scheme: certainty or complete nonexistence.

We know from basic logic and from all prior Trek history that these locations (within or on the borders of different interstellar empires) are remote from one another

Warp drive permits Nero to go from point A ( Rura Penthe ) to point B ( Romulan Neutral Zone ) to point C ( Vulcan ) in the time frame provided for by the film. Furthermore, the Kelvin incident takes place 25 years before the rest of the film, so its distance from the other locations is a non-issue. So your problem with the film's locations has little basis.