The Narada during Nero's impisonment?

[I-Am-Zim]

Nor does it prove or support it.

I never said it proved anything. However, the ship never being heard from again until 2258, together with Nero's injuries and the Rura Penthe scene in the mind meld, supports imprisonment. If Nero had been waiting somewhere in deep space the entire time and had not shown up on any inhabited world, that scene would not have happened.

So? Nero's injuries could have happened anywhere. Maybe they tried raiding a Tellarite ship and got into a fight? maybe he went to a planet to get food supplies and got attacked by an animal? There are many possibilities other than Rura Penthe. The mind meld scene simply showed Nero with his shirt off. There was no mention of Rura Penthe, prison, Klingons, or anything else that would even remotely suggest that he was in prison. He could have been anywhere. Maybe they stopped off at some planet for some R&R during their 25 year walkabout? Either way, none of those instances would give anyone (other than a Trekkie that already knew about the deleted Klingon prison scene) any indication that Nero was on a prison planet (actually Rura Penthe is a "Penal Asteroid", not a planet).

If that scene weren't included on the DVD, we would not be having this discussion.

It's been under discussion since well before the DVD came out.

Not so much as it is now. It would be simply a behind-the-scenes rumor had the actual deleted scene not been included on the DVD. If we didn't know about the Rura Penthe scene, it would be a non-issue.

There is nothing in the movie that even remotely suggests that the Narada or Nero were ever in the posession of the Klingon Empire.

I think what you mean is that nothing is proved. Got it. But to say nothing "remotely suggests" it is completely ridiculous. We have the strange coincidence of the Narada being crippled at the edge of Klingon space and its later destruction of the ships at Rura Penthe after never having been seen for 25 years, together with Nero's injuries and the scene in the mind-meld.

Not from what I saw. Those "coincidences" don't suggest anything about Nero being in prison. They suggest that he wasn't seen or heard from for 25 years. It also suggests the the Klingon armada at the "prison planet" (Rura Penthe was never mentioned) may have been in Nero's way as he was going to capture Spock when he came through the wormhole. So they had to be eliminated.

 

[thumbtack]

Really? I don't recall seeing any blue skies on Vulcan.

This is from IV.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, SNAP!

 

[Dukhat]

Don't forget your inane bitching about zeros.

That's zeroes.

The plural form of zero can be either "zeros" or "zeroes," smart guy. Shows how much you really know about zeros

 

[Nerys Myk]

Did we watch the same movie? I think we had a few alien looking aliens in the movie. You must know some odd looking humans.

What little aliens there were are pretty much confined to background fodder who aren't given any lines of dialogue and are mostly there to sell the idea that there are aliens, but no aliens that matter in any way.

I just think it's kind of a bummer since I appreciate the work that the make up crew did, but none of it is ever given a spotlight to work with.

And of course, for a movie that costs 150 million dollars, I expected a much cooler alien looking character than just a simple human who's only distinguishing feature is her big fake CGI eyes. I hate going back to District 9 all the time, but for a film of that size who's budget was 1/5 of Star Trek's budget, the aliens in that film were not only photo realistic, but they also conveyed emotions and you could identify with them as characters. Plus they didn't speak a word of english either.

D9 is a different type of movie where the focus is on a single group of aliens, who are on screen for most of the movie While they looked nice, they weren't all that much better or different than the insect type aliens we've seen in Enterprise and elsewhere.

The focus of Star Trek is on the 7 characters that make up the TOS pantheon, only one of which is alien so you're not going to have elaborate alien taking up alot of screen time. The big eyed alien was hardly the only alien present so I'm not sure why you've singled her out as an example. Your budger complaint would hold more water if you could demonstrate a knowledge or background in film budgeting and had the actual numbers for STXI and D9 broken down to show what was spent on what. D9 was obviously cheaper to make since it was filmed "on location" and didn't have to build or create that many sets. Ditto for its costuming needs. The largest percentage of its budget might have gone into the develoment of the alien race. The percentage of STXI's budget devoted to make-up might be less.

 

[Set Harth]

Maybe they tried raiding a Tellarite ship and got into a fight?

Then the Tellarites would presumably have reported being attacked by a gigantic ship.

Those "coincidences" don't suggest anything about Nero being in prison.

That's exactly what the so-called "coincidence" is meant to suggest.

It also suggests the the Klingon armada at the "prison planet" (Rura Penthe was never mentioned) may have been in Nero's way as he was going to capture Spock when he came through the wormhole. So they had to be eliminated.

Nonsense. If Nero is traveling to the Spock coordinates at warp speed, a Klingon armada at Rura Penthe would not be "in his way". They'd be at Rura Penthe. The Spock coordinates are in the Neutral Zone and there would be no reason for Nero to even go near Rura Penthe.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Maybe they tried raiding a Tellarite ship and got into a fight?

Then the Tellarites would presumably have reported being attacked by a gigantic ship.

Interesting that that was the only part of my rebuttal you quoted. However, that was but one of my suggestions. The other was that they may have gone to a planet to get food supplies and Nero may have been attacked by an animal. Hence the chewed ear and puncture marks on his head - possibly from an animal bite.

Those "coincidences" don't suggest anything about Nero being in prison.

That's exactly what the so-called "coincidence" is meant to suggest.

In what way? If the average moviegoer hadn't read Countdown or heard any rumors about the Klingon prison scene?

It also suggests the the Klingon armada at the "prison planet" (Rura Penthe was never mentioned) may have been in Nero's way as he was going to capture Spock when he came through the wormhole. So they had to be eliminated.

Nonsense. If Nero is traveling to the Spock coordinates at warp speed, a Klingon armada at Rura Penthe would not be "in his way". They'd be at Rura Penthe. The Spock coordinates are in the Neutral Zone and there would be no reason for Nero to even go near Rura Penthe.

Sure it makes sense. All we know is that the wormhole that Nero came through was 75K kilometers from Klingon space (established by dialogue at the beginning of the movie). We don't know exactly where the second wormhole opened. Where in the movie does anyone specifically say that it was in the Neutral Zone. Nowhere. And we also don't know exactly where Rura Penthe is. For all we know, it could be close to the coordinates of OldSpock's wormhole opening. The 47 "Warbirds" may have been patroling the area when the Narada came through. Who konws?

 

[Set Harth]

In what way? If the average moviegoer hadn't read Countdown or heard any rumors about the Klingon prison scene?

In the way implied by my putting "coincidence" in quotes. In the words of Jim Kirk: the Kelvin attack took place on the edge of Klingon space. In that conversation Kirk makes the connection between the Kelvin incident and the Klingon prison planet, and that's in the film, not in Countdown or some deleted scene. So the "Average Moviegoer" was exposed to it.

Where in the movie does anyone specifically say that it was in the Neutral Zone. Nowhere.

CHEKOV: Telemetry detected an anomaly in the Neutral Zone. What appeared to be a lightning storm in space.

And we also don't know exactly where Rura Penthe is. For all we know, it could be close to the coordinates of OldSpock's wormhole opening. The 47 "Warbirds" may have been patroling the area when the Narada came through. Who konws?

Rura Penthe is in Klingon space, not the Neutral Zone. The ships were destroyed at Rura Penthe according to the film's strong implication. If traveling to a point in the Neutral Zone at warp, Nero has no reason to drop out of warp at Rura Penthe.

 

[The Wormhole]

Don't forget your inane bitching about zeros.

That's zeroes.

The plural form of zero can be either "zeros" or "zeroes," smart guy. Shows how much you really know about zeros

Well, it is my least favourite number, why should I be an expert?

 

[Dukhat]

That's zeroes.

The plural form of zero can be either "zeros" or "zeroes," smart guy. Shows how much you really know about zeros

Well, it is my least favourite number, why should I be an expert?

Because that's all you ever talk about. If you need clarification on this point, just look at your own avatar.

 

[The Wormhole]

The plural form of zero can be either "zeros" or "zeroes," smart guy. Shows how much you really know about zeros

Well, it is my least favourite number, why should I be an expert?

Because that's all you ever talk about. If you need clarification on this point, just look at your own avatar.

There's a guy I know, all he ever talks about is politics. But he sure as hell isn't an expert. Hell, he knows nothing when it comes to politics. I don't think he even votes.

It's possible I made this story up to serve as flimsy evidence to support my side of the debate. That may be childish and petty of me, but that's who I am.

So anyway, Abrams raped my childhoodwith a zero...

 

[Dukhat]

Well, it is my least favourite number, why should I be an expert?

Because that's all you ever talk about. If you need clarification on this point, just look at your own avatar.

There's a guy I know, all he ever talks about is politics. But he sure as hell isn't an expert. Hell, he knows nothing when it comes to politics. I don't think he even votes.

It's possible I made this story up to serve as flimsy evidence to support my side of the debate. That may be childish and petty of me, but that's who I am.

So anyway, Abrams raped my childhoodwith a zero...

That's "zeroe."

 

[Tom Servo]

The one thing I don't understand, when people argue against Nero's actions, is when you say they don't make sense, or they aren't logical. The guy had just seen most of his civilization, his wife, and his kid, vaporized by a supernova. You really think the guy is going to react rationally. I mean the first ship he comes across after they go though the black whole, is the Kelvin, and after interrogating just one person, he decides to destroy her. Does that seem like a logical action to you? No. The man has gone bat shit crazy, so Im sure that waiting around for 25 years while waiting for Spock isn't something he is going to think about logically.

That brings up another point. Why do people assume he just waited around for 25 years? All the Star Trek shows and films have focused on the Starfleet side of things, but there is a whole universe out there that hasn't been delved into. As big as the Narada is, Im sure if Nero wanted to keep hidden for 25 years in the underbelly of the milky way, he could.

 

[BenRoethig]

Where was the Narada during Nero's imprisonment by the Klingons? Didn't the Klingons try to use the ship as part of their fleet..?

In the JJ-verse don't get caught up with the details. There is so much that doesn't make sense in order to better fit the story. It is what it is.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Where was the Narada during Nero's imprisonment by the Klingons? Didn't the Klingons try to use the ship as part of their fleet..?

In the JJ-verse don't get caught up with the details. There is so much that doesn't make sense in order to better fit the story. It is what it is.

They cut the Klingon stuff so thats no longer part of the story. The real question what was Nero doing for those 25 years.

 

[Desert Kris]

Earlier in the thread, someone asked about why someone would bother with licensed material that is of potentially lesser canonical status. I think there are many good reasons for having an interest in such fictional works.

One thing we get with comics and books is the possible story that lurks just around the corner, whether that story might be overriden at some future time or not. Always, the possibility exists that some future writer will see a story possibility in the same spot, and take it in a different direction.

Of course, when a newer work overrides an older work of fiction, particularly in a medium that is regarded as of higher canonical value, well, at that point it's up to the fan who invested time and energy in that earlier version of events which version they prefer.

My reason for investing time and energy is in part a rebellion against the canon arguments. This is why I'm looking forward to the DC Comics that have Kirk and company assigned to the Excelsior between The Search For Spock and The Voyage Home. It's the reason I hunted down older copies of My Enemy, My Ally and The Romulan Way; I didn't want the stories to be tweaked by editorial "corrections" to make them more consistent with "established" Star Trek history as it is understood today. Additionally, I hunted down Joe Ford's novel about Klingons (I think it's The Final Reflection, not sure) because it presents a totally different interpretation of what the Klingon culture is like, based on the information that had been revealed at that point.

On the other side of the coin...

I've flipped through Countdown and Nero, and found them to be somewhat interesting depictions of the gaps in Nero's story. I accept them as one possible interepretation. From a storytelling standpoint, I do think there are many other possibilities, if you play with the idea that he was not in prison for 25 years.

Some ideas have already cropped up, his ship needed repairs, so he was scrounging material. It is an awfully big ship, after all, he could have needed a lot of materials to maker the Narada whole again. He could have gone on some excursions to see what's going on with the Romulan Empire; he would have had to do that carefully, keeping in mind that the Romulans always seem to be good at espionage, and cloak and dagger type of stuff.

I like the idea that he may have been recovering some of his people from Rura Pente. Another possibility that I like is the idea that he is breaking somebody out there who can do calculations for the time and place of lightening storm black holes.

Not having Nero captured opens story telling possiblities; that's the main thing for me. I like that there are comics to give a possible explanation, but it's fun to come up with alternative explanations.

 

[JarodRussell]

The one thing I don't understand, when people argue against Nero's actions, is when you say they don't make sense, or they aren't logical. The guy had just seen most of his civilization, his wife, and his kid, vaporized by a supernova. You really think the guy is going to react rationally. I mean the first ship he comes across after they go though the black whole, is the Kelvin, and after interrogating just one person, he decides to destroy her. Does that seem like a logical action to you? No. The man has gone bat shit crazy, so Im sure that waiting around for 25 years while waiting for Spock isn't something he is going to think about logically.

That brings up another point. Why do people assume he just waited around for 25 years? All the Star Trek shows and films have focused on the Starfleet side of things, but there is a whole universe out there that hasn't been delved into. As big as the Narada is, Im sure if Nero wanted to keep hidden for 25 years in the underbelly of the milky way, he could.

And what about the other 30 men under his command? Are they totally nuts, too? So nuts that even after 25 years (twenty-five) they never question him?

 

[Jeyl]

And what about the other 30 men under his command? Are they totally nuts, too? So nuts that even after 25 years (twenty-five) they never question him?

Well, they do question him sometimes. Like if they ignited the red matter that something bad* would happen. Not only are they cardboard Stormtrooper clones (Always doing what the big bad wants them to do, can't aim for sh** even in settings they know better than the invaders, and are never developed), they're also voiced by Will Wheaton, who would not be my first pick to voice a crew of evil Romulans.

My favorite part is at the end when the Narada is being engulfed by the black hole. You see the crew flee in terror from their stations....why? The ship isn't going to get any better if they just flee their stations, and they sure won't fare any better if they think they can just jump out of the windows to safety.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

In what way? If the average moviegoer hadn't read Countdown or heard any rumors about the Klingon prison scene?

In the way implied by my putting "coincidence" in quotes. In the words of Jim Kirk: the Kelvin attack took place on the edge of Klingon space. In that conversation Kirk makes the connection between the Kelvin incident and the Klingon prison planet, and that's in the film, not in Countdown or some deleted scene. So the "Average Moviegoer" was exposed to it.

Exactgly. However, the average moviegoer without a lot of previous Trek knowledge wouldn't have even heard of Rura Penthe to begin with. Thus would not have assumed that Nero was in prison. There was no reason to. All Uhura said was that the transmission came from a Klingon prison planet. Nero apparently had to get through Klingon space to get to OldSpock's coordinates. After he destroyed or damaged the 47 "Warbirds()" that got in his way, one of them may have been able to limp to the "prison planet" to send a distress call. Still, no implicit implication that Nero was in a Klingon Prison.

Where in the movie does anyone specifically say that it was in the Neutral Zone. Nowhere.

CHEKOV: Telemetry detected an anomaly in the Neutral Zone. What appeared to be a lightning storm in space.

I stand corrected. I forgot about that line.

Still, there is no indication that Nero was in prison. Now, if Uhura had mentioned that the 47 Klingon ships were destroyed by a ship full of escaped prisoners, that would have been a good indication that Nero was actually in the prison. However, according to Kirk's lines on the iBridge later, we learn that the 47 "warbirds (I still have to laugh at that)" were destroyed by a massive Romulan ship, not a massive Romulan ship full of escaped prisoners. So, still no direct implication that Nero was in prison.

And we also don't know exactly where Rura Penthe is. For all we know, it could be close to the coordinates of OldSpock's wormhole opening. The 47 "Warbirds" may have been patroling the area when the Narada came through. Who konws?

Rura Penthe is in Klingon space, not the Neutral Zone. The ships were destroyed at Rura Penthe according to the film's strong implication. If traveling to a point in the Neutral Zone at warp, Nero has no reason to drop out of warp at Rura Penthe.

Actually, all she said was that the transmission was from a Klingon prison planet. Rura Penthe wasn't mentioned. Besides, Rura Penthe isn't even a planet. It's an asteroid...but that's for another discussion. Then she said that a Klingon armada was destroyed, 47 ships. Sure, the implication is there that the armada was destroyed somewhere near a Klingon prison planet, but there is still no indication that Nero was involved until Kirk's speech aboard the Abramsprise. In that instance, there was still no indication that Nero was in prison. All we know is that the Kelvin attack took place on the edge of Klingon space. Presumably, that's whre OldSpock's wormhole coordinates are. According to what was seen/heard in the movie, Nero had been wandering around space for 25 years. During that time, he had somehow calculated when/where OldSpock would emerge. On his way back to the Klingon space from wherever, he runs into an armada of 47 Klingon ships. He pretty much beats the crap out of them and moves along to his destination. One of the Klingon ships limps to the "prison planet" (which may indeed be just on the inside of the Neutral Zone for all we know) and sends a distress call. That's all I can infer had I not known about the deleted scenes. And I have a pretty good feeling that's all the average moviegoer would infer as well. Besides, the Klingon prison scenes were deleted. They were not in the movie. Therefore, for the movie to stand on its own, it is a non-issue. For all we know from the movie, they just wandered around space.

Where was the Narada during Nero's imprisonment by the Klingons? Didn't the Klingons try to use the ship as part of their fleet..?

In the JJ-verse don't get caught up with the details. There is so much that doesn't make sense in order to better fit the story. It is what it is.

They cut the Klingon stuff so thats no longer part of the story. The real question what was Nero doing for those 25 years.

BAM!!

 

[Set Harth]

However, the average moviegoer without a lot of previous Trek knowledge wouldn't have even heard of Rura Penthe to begin with.

It doesn't matter. The name "Rura Penthe" is not important, and wasn't used in the film. I'm only using it as a substitute for saying "the Klingon prison planet".

Actually, all she said was that the transmission was from a Klingon prison planet. Rura Penthe wasn't mentioned.

Which is why the average moviegoer’s presumed ignorance of TUC is irrelevant.

Nero apparently had to get through Klingon space to get to OldSpock's coordinates.

Circular logic. If Nero was indeed roaming around freely for the 25 years, he wouldn’t necessarily have to go through Klingon space at all. Furthermore, the fleet at Rura Penthe wouldn’t be “in the way” of a ship at warp. During a journey to a point within the Neutral Zone, there is no reason for Nero to drop out of warp in Klingon space.

Besides, the Klingon prison scenes were deleted. They were not in the movie.

Are you trying to tell me the deleted scenes were actually deleted? And all this time I thought it was just a cute name!

All we know is that the Kelvin attack took place on the edge of Klingon space. Presumably, that's where OldSpock's wormhole coordinates are.

No, that’s where Nero’s wormhole reemergence coordinates were. Spock Prime’s coordinates were in a different place, in the Neutral Zone.

(which may indeed be just on the inside of the Neutral Zone for all we know)

You don't see a problem with a Klingon prison planet being located in the Neutral Zone? Would this be the most likely assumption for an audience to make?

Thus would not have assumed that Nero was in prison. There was no reason to.

Only if one erroneously assumes that there is actually no significance at all in Kirk’s citation of the fact that the Kelvin incident took place at the edge of Klingon territory. By mentioning this Kirk is implying a certain connection between the Rura Penthe incident and the Kelvin incident. That’s in the film, not the deleted scenes, so the all-important “average moviegoer” audience is exposed to this reasoning on the part of the film and its characters. That doesn’t mean they have to agree with Kirk’s leap of logic, but that’s not the point; the point is that the implied connection is presented by the film's protagonist. If the film didn't intend to suggest that Nero was in prison, the location of the Kelvin incident would be totally irrelevant.

As I understand the situation, the Nero prison material was cut out of the film because it confused the hell out of test audiences and made them feel as if they were supposed to be rooting for Nero while he was taking out Klingons. It doesn’t necessarily mean that Nero’s time in prison is no longer to be considered a viable part of the story.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Nero had to remain "idle", at least until Spock Prime showed up given all his dastardly plans were dependent upon red matter in Spock's possession. (a point the movie actually makes glaringly clear to anyone actually paying attention.)

True his ship was powerful but going around causing havoc and bringing attention to himself while he waited would not have helped much.