A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

[Neroon]

I see it as quite the reverse, Kegg. "Rejoined" struck me as more sensationalized, a chance to show two women locking lips on screen. It was over the top and in your face (not to mention theirs ), hitting the viewer over the head with "the message".

In the case of B5 with Talia and Ivanova, it was given a more subtle and matter-of-fact presentation, as if it were a normal part of society. At no point did it ever seem like a "message show", because that would have detracted from the overall story being portrayed.

YMMV, but as predictable as this may be in coming from me, I prefer B5's approach because it isn't so brazenly shoved in front of the camera.

 

[Thestral]

Just want to chime in a tiny bit. I'm loving GodBen's thread (as I loved the Voyager one... I lost track of the Enterprise one, sorry), but I don't have the time to make a whole lot of comments and keep up.

I did want to note something about the Ivanova/Talia thing though. Strictly from a selfish perspective, I didn't mind the outcome of Talia leaving, because

Spoiler: spoilers

I really really liked the Marcus/Ivanova storyline, and saw that before I saw many episodes with Talia (yes I saw the show out of order to some extent ).

And for what it's worth, I agree with Kegg in that the Marcus/Franklin disguise worked much better than this, which had me wondering what JMS intentions really were until this thread.

 

[Kegg]

In the case of B5 with Talia and Ivanova, it was given a more subtle and matter-of-fact presentation, as if it were a normal part of society.

The 'subtelty' is precisely the point. We don't subtly imply, say, in "Parliament of Dreams" that Sinclair and Sakai have a relationship and then pussyfoot around what exactly that is supposed to mean. "Rejoined" has its problems - I find the episode trite and boring, frankly - but at the very least it's actually an episode which has an element that B5's episode only vaguely purports to have.

 

[Reverend]

Apples and oranges. Sakai was an old flame, not a new relationship. As for TNG's stab at lesbianism, it was somewhat undermined by is not actually being two women in love but one woman in love with a man who's now through a sci-fi contrivance living in the body of a woman. The fact that they briefly sucked face doesn't constitute a relationship. The DS9 episode where Dax's ex wife turns up was much more convincing, there was an actual relationship there though still something of a contrivance as again Dax's host at the time they were married was male.

To date, the only sci-fi show I've known to treat a gay relationship with a semblance of honesty (however briefly) is Stargate Universe. It's really taken that long. I imagine the reason it took so long is because at first the networks were just too nervous to allow it, later when they probably would go for it, producers and writers were probably unsure how to approach it without telegraphing "oh, they're doing a gay episode". In fact I think Ron Moore said as much was the case on BSG. I can't speak for JMS but I imagine once Talia was out of the picture, shoehorning in some other homosexual pairing would just have been forced and by that point most of the characters had already been set on a course and like it or not that's hardly a good reason to derail any of the other threads.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

To date, the only sci-fi show I've known to treat a gay relationship with a semblance of honesty (however briefly) is Stargate Universe.

I think "Caprica" has been the most straightforward so far by depicting a marriage between one of the male regulars (Sam Adama) and another male character.

 

[Can]

Apples and oranges. Sakai was an old flame, not a new relationship. As for TNG's stab at lesbianism, it was somewhat undermined by is not actually being two women in love but one woman in love with a man who's now through a sci-fi contrivance living in the body of a woman. The fact that they briefly sucked face doesn't constitute a relationship. The DS9 episode where Dax's ex wife turns up was much more convincing, there was an actual relationship there though still something of a contrivance as again Dax's host at the time they were married was male.

To date, the only sci-fi show I've known to treat a gay relationship with a semblance of honesty (however briefly) is Stargate Universe. It's really taken that long. I imagine the reason it took so long is because at first the networks were just too nervous to allow it, later when they probably would go for it, producers and writers were probably unsure how to approach it without telegraphing "oh, they're doing a gay episode". In fact I think Ron Moore said as much was the case on BSG. I can't speak for JMS but I imagine once Talia was out of the picture, shoehorning in some other homosexual pairing would just have been forced and by that point most of the characters had already been set on a course and like it or not that's hardly a good reason to derail any of the other threads.

There is also in "Twice Shy" episode of Farscape in Season 4 where a brief gay relationship was implied.

 

[Forbin]

"Tonight on a very special episode of Babylon Five..."

 

[Reverend]

I think "Caprica" has been the most straightforward so far by depicting a marriage between one of the male regulars (Sam Adama) and another male character.

I'd actually forgotten about that one. Still, like SGU it's only a very recent show. There's also Buffy of course, but I did say "sci-fi" and I'm not sure what genre that show could be called. I suppose you could throw in Firefly, but I'm not sure open an minded space hooker counts as a gay relationship.

There is also in "Twice Shy" episode of Farscape in Season 4 where a brief gay relationship was implied.

Is that the one with Chiana's slave girl, the androgyne or the one where the bloke-that's-really-a-female falls for D'Argo? Farscape certainly wasn't shy or squeamish but it was mostly done either for a laugh or just for the sake of being weird. Still, a valid point.

 

[stonester1]

This, on the other hand, was hilarious. Sometimes a joke can be obvious but remain totally necessary and funny. It would've been positively detrimental if someone hadn't done it.

It absolutely was. AFTER I had gotten over the shock of the moment.

Which, again, shows how utterly effective it was.

 

[Forbin]

Buffy, I think, is "Horror Comedy." Maybe "Fantasy" can be thrown in there. The "science Fiction" content is almost non-existant, confined to maybe three occasions featuring robots and the whole Initiative thing in S4.

 

[Lindley]

I would argue that when dividing genres, the justification for the story-of-the-week (magic, aliens, demons, lawyers) is really less relevant than the form of the storytelling, and that in some sense, Star Trek is more closely related to Buffy than it is to "hard SF" stuff like 2001.

B5 is a bit harder to classify. It clearly tried harder than Trek to keep itself grounded in hard(er) SF, but often enough returned to the standard space opera well.

When it comes right down to it, a body-swap episode is a body-swap episode, and a possession episode is a possession episode.

 

[TheGodBen]

The Long, Twilight Struggle (****½)

I want to give this episode a full five stars because certain sections of the story were just that good. There were times in first season, and the erly part of season 2, when I wondered if I would ever connect to this universe the way I did to the universe of DS9 or my other favourite shows; would B5 be able to make me feel as involved and shocked as I was during the first scene of By Inferno's Light? It appears that the answer is yes, watching the Centauri fleet bombing Narn homeworld was shocking and I fully felt the gravity of the situation. Londo viewing his handywork through the window... great stuff.

The council scene is my favourite moment of the show so far, it has all the politics and drama of war while maintaining a powerful character moment for G'Kar. I really hope that Earth and Minbari take a tough line against the Centauri for their use of mass drivers on the civilian population, I'd hate for them to just drop it.

But I can't give this episode a full score for one reason: Draal. Man, can that guy ham things up. He talks about an impending struggle against darkness in an almost cheerful voice. As a result the early parts of the episode drag on a little bit. The good stuff is so good that it almost makes up for it, but not quite. But I'm eager to move on to the next episode, I'm hoping it's a comedy.

G'KAR: How goes the war?
G'STEN: The war is a dark and empty void and I must protect my soldiers from it. I protect them, nurture them, rescue them. I care for the troops under my command as though they were my own children. And I protect them from the darkness of the war. Without me the troops would be aimless and would cry out for my leadership, but I am there for them and I....
G'KAR: Oh no, not again!

Scott Bakula: 34

 

[stonester1]

That episode kicked ass for all the reasons you mentioned and then some. But I'd give it the full five, because Draal ROCKS, IMO.

 

[Hyperspace05]

Yes, "The Long, Twilight Struggle" is a great episode indeed. And the council scene is incredibly powerful.

As for taking a stand against the Centauri... It will not be forgotten. The events in this episode have repercussions throughout the rest of the series. But not necessarily in ways you expect.

I'm not a big Draal fan either - But I still rank the episode as one of the best ones.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

...I wondered if I would ever connect to this universe the way I did to the universe of DS9 or my other favourite shows; would B5 be able to make me feel as involved and shocked as I was during the first scene of By Inferno's Light? It appears that the answer is yes, watching the Centauri fleet bombing Narn homeworld was shocking and I fully felt the gravity of the situation. Londo viewing his handywork through the window... great stuff.

I felt the same. I was an established Star Trek fan (of the four modern shows, and the 21st century novel continuity) before I watched a single episode of Babylon Five. I was- and still am- deeply attached to the Trek universe, and I was uncertain if another sci-fi 'verse could achieve the same effect on me, particularly one so much smaller than that of Trek. I quickly came to like Babylon Five- a lot- but it was this very episode that I think cemented it as my favorite television show. The bombardment of Narn was indeed shocking, and it's still a haunting scene.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

That episode kicked ass for all the reasons you mentioned and then some. But I'd give it the full five, because Draal ROCKS, IMO.

I agree.

"I'm not finished!"
"...sorry"

 

[Evil Twin]

There were times in first season, and the erly part of season 2, when I wondered if I would ever connect to this universe the way I did to the universe of DS9 or my other favourite shows; would B5 be able to make me feel as involved and shocked as I was during the first scene of By Inferno's Light? It appears that the answer is yes, watching the Centauri fleet bombing Narn homeworld was shocking and I fully felt the gravity of the situation. Londo viewing his handywork through the window... great stuff.

A fan of both DS9 and B5, I still prefer DS9 as a whole, but despite the lower budget that hampered it, B5 was able to pull off some real powerful moments, such as the above, that DS9 didn't come quite close to matching, as it couldn't rock the boat of the established Trek-verse TOO much. For instance we see the aftermath of Breen attack on San Francisco on a viewscreen hear about Betazoid falling to the Dominion in Season 7 but did they really have any lasting consequences? Nope. Heck, the Dominion War just might as well have never happened as far as post-DS9 Voyager was concerned. But B5 had the freedom to do whatever the heck it wanted -- and it frequently did.

 

[Reverend]

The council scene is my favourite moment of the show so far, it has all the politics and drama of war while maintaining a powerful character moment for G'Kar. I really hope that Earth and Minbari take a tough line against the Centauri for their use of mass drivers on the civilian population, I'd hate for them to just drop it.

It certainly won't be forgotten (even the Vorlons lodged a protest!) but the reality is there's very little anyone can, or more accurately, is willing to do about it. Like what happens when a major power here on Earth decides to invade and occupy a less powerful nation. Harsh words and sanctions is about as much as any other country is usually willing to do.

 

[tomalak301]

Long Twilight Struggle is my favorite episode of the series, for what it's worth. I liked Draal quite a bit, but do have a complaint in which would cause to a spoiler so I'll stop there.

 

[Lindley]

I think I know your complaint and I agree.