A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

[Jan]

You weren't imagining things. It was quite subtle up to that point, but if Andrea Thompson had stayed, Ivanova and Talia would have had a relationship. Since she did want out, it ended up going faster than planned.

When JMS approached the actresses on-set and asked if they'd mind if he wrote some physical scenes for them, reportedly they went into a clinch that stopped all work in it's tracks and sent JMS back to his office blushing like a stop sign.

Jan

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Divided Loyalties (***½)
Finally, an episode with a revelation which wasn't spoiled to me and which I didn't see coming. I admit it, the episode tricked me three times; the first time was making me think that Ivanova was the spy, which was far too obvious a choice, which is why I thought the episode was going to go that route as a twist. (To make you think that Ivanova couldn't possibly be the sleeper agent because it's too obvious a choice and then pulling a double bluff. Yes, that would have been stupid.) Then Garibaldi tricked me when he pretended he was the sleeper. Damn you Garibaldi, why do you have to make me like you? Finally, I was tricked into thinking it was Ivanova again and that she only claimed to be a telepath as the sleeper agent's way of getting out of being scanned. I admit that I didn't see Talia being the sleeper agent even though it was clearly the most logical choice what with her having spent time with the Psi Corps and everything, so I guess that makes me an idiot. In other obvious news, Ricky Martin is teh gay.

"Divided Loyalties" was a very fancy way of writing one of the regular characters (Talia) out.

Speaking of teh gay, what was up with Ivanova and Talia? Maybe I'm reading too much into things, but their scenes, particularly the nightgown scene, seemed to be filmed in a sexualised manner, and apparently they slept in the same bed. I have no problem with it if they are bisexual, in fact, if two women want to make out and possibly go to bed with one another then I wholeheartedly encourage it, especially when cameras are involved. But if this episode was intended to imply that they were in a relationship then it handled it in such a weak way that it all felt very awkward. And if they were just friends then it still felt awkward.

Yeah, it was implied. For a long time, there was even speculation that a kissing scene was cut form the episode, but JMS has denied this.

 

[stonester1]

Yeah, Garibaldi got me, too, with his little joke. Jerk.

 

[Booji]

As for the writer not having heard a racist joke, if memory serves (Jan, correct me if I'm wrong) Straczynski spent a fair portion of his childhood living in very poor, often multi racial neighbourhoods. Hardly a sheltered upbringing. So I'm sure he's encountered the odd racist comment.

I'm not saying that isn't the case; but it's so poorly written it sounds like it's coined by someone with only the foggiest notion of what racist jokes sound like.

Actually, the way it was written is exactly how that type of 'joke' would be stated. I hear that shit all the time being in Philly.

 

[Can]

Talia & Ivanova yes something was implied between but just that. Implication. JMS left rest to viewer's judgement. I simply don't care.

Lyta Alexander is back.
Garibaldi you joker ! I am not a big fan of this character. But sometimes he pulls it off.

 

[Vestboy]

You weren't imagining things. It was quite subtle up to that point, but if Andrea Thompson had stayed, Ivanova and Talia would have had a relationship. Since she did want out, it ended up going faster than planned.

Also, it was subtle because this was American television in the early 90s. It was actually kind of envelope-pushing at the time, but now does come off as tame at best, vague at worst.

 

[Kegg]

Speaking of teh gay, what was up with Ivanova and Talia? Maybe I'm reading too much into things,

That you think you might be reading into things is precisely the problem as to how this was handled - or so I felt when I saw the episode.

The context, of course, is I'd been told how 'bold' B5 was regarding homosexual relationships compared to Star Trek, with this lesbian romance being a selling point. In retrospect I think the B5 fans read more into it then was there - oh, there was an implied romance, as others have stated, but an implied romance really isn't a lot more risque then something like, say, "Rejoined", which is an actual romance with kissing and things.

B5 does something later I'd like to comment on though, but that is another story!

I didn't like this episode, anyway, because I felt Talia Winters being the spy was the most ludricously obvious choice (it's so obvious it almost comes as a surprise, the sleeper agent in plain sight) and more importantly I never cared about Talia Winters. The real Talia Winters may be dead to Ivanova, but I'd been wishing her off the show since she arrived. As I said in another thread, it'd be like outing Neelix as a spy - who wouldn't cheer? The plot was originally designed so that Laurel Takashima from "The Gathering" would be the sleeper agent, which is more of a surprise - and was put in because JMS felt he probably couldn't keep that actress around long (he was right, as it turned out). Takashima would have then been replaced by her moody second-in-command, Ivanova.

Actually, the way it was written is exactly how that type of 'joke' would be stated. I hear that shit all the time being in Philly.

Believe me, having gone to a very white secondary school, filthy-minded racist jokes (Jews, blacks, you name it) were frequently the order of the day. I never liked them and I didn't tell any (not that I'm some wonderful tolerant person myself, I'm more of an uptight bastard) but I'm not going to deny that an actual effort to be funny went into those. I find it difficult to believe anyone would think the redecorating joke is amusing - not because it's offensive, it's just not funny.

 

[Forbin]

The right punchline would have been "a good start."
That's the true total xenophobe's answer.

 

[Reverend]

I find it difficult to believe anyone would think the redecorating joke is amusing - not because it's offensive, it's just not funny.

Some people just aren't as funny as they think they are. Seriously, I've met men in their 50's that tell jokes that the average 8 year old would find puerile and yet they laugh themselves silly and marvel at their amazingly sharp wit. If the credibility of that line bothers you that much, just assume that clown was just such a witless idiot and move on.

Ironically, at the start of this episode I was thinking that I don't see myself rewatching this show once I'm finished, it just hasn't grabbed me the way other shows do. But at the end of this episode I had an urge to watch the first two seasons again knowing what I now know about Ivanova and Talia, so maybe in a few years I will set out to rewatch the show to see how it all fits together.

'Spider in the Web' certainly takes a somewhat interesting turn on the second viewing. Talia essentially spends half the episode trying to have herself hunted down and killed. Clearly the Control program wasn't too concerned with self preservation.

 

[JoeD80]

The context, of course, is I'd been told how 'bold' B5 was regarding homosexual relationships compared to Star Trek, with this lesbian romance being a selling point. In retrospect I think the B5 fans read more into it then was there - oh, there was an implied romance, as others have stated, but an implied romance really isn't a lot more risque then something like, say, "Rejoined", which is an actual romance with kissing and things.

"Rejoined" is in the context of a species that can change sex all the time when moving between hosts. Ivanova and Talia were two *human* adults, which to my knowledge has still never been done on Trek (unless Enterprise did this? I don't know).

I'm pretty sure this counts as a little spoiler in here, but it's more of a "would have been":

Spoiler: Season 3 Characters

This Ivanova-Talia relationship was meant to last much longer in the series. Joe planned from the *beginning* to have a lesbian/bi-sexual character. However, when Andrea left and Patricia came back, he thought it would be too forced to have Ivanova fall for Lyta as well, so the thread ended up being dropped.

 

[Kegg]

"Rejoined" is in the context of a species that can change sex all the time when moving between hosts. Ivanova and Talia were two *human* adults, which to my knowledge has still never been done on Trek (unless Enterprise did this? I don't know).

"Rejoined" gives us an actual homosexual relationship. "Divided Loyalties" gives us a 'maybe-sorta-hinting' that even TheGodBen wasn't clear as whether that's what they're implying. That they're human doesn't seem to be a major trump card in my eyes, since the Trill were pretty much humans plus dots and past lives (the temptation to make a Hindu joke here is overwhelming, as you can see, I'm uptight, not nice.)

As far as the spoiler goes,

Spoiler: The spoiler

JMS reworked an arc meant to apply to Takashima and gave it to Talia. He could have done this again - making, say, Marcus infatuated with Franklin and making that a big romantic arc could have come off as pretty natural and would have even been a heck of a lot more risque, as male homosexuality is a thornier issue then its female equivalent as far as sci-fi shows go. But he was solely interested in female homosexuality and yeah, after this ended - and with the characters destined to monolithically pair off in certain ways - he didn't have any choices other than the awkward Ivanova/Lyta pairing, so it makes sense he'd drop it then.

 

[Jan]

As far as the spoiler goes,

Spoiler: The spoiler

JMS reworked an arc meant to apply to Takashima and gave it to Talia. He could have done this again - making, say, Marcus infatuated with Franklin and making that a big romantic arc could have come off as pretty natural and would have even been a heck of a lot more risque, as male homosexuality is a thornier issue then its female equivalent as far as sci-fi shows go. But he was solely interested in female homosexuality and yeah, after this ended - and with the characters destined to monolithically pair off in certain ways - he didn't have any choices other than the awkward Ivanova/Lyta pairing, so it makes sense he'd drop it then.

Oh, really? Just how do you know

Spoiler: spoiler

that JMS is "solely interested in female homosexuality"?

Anything you'd like to share, Kegg?

Jan

 

[Kegg]

Oh, really? Just how do you know

Spoiler: spoiler

that JMS is "solely interested in female homosexuality"?

Anything you'd like to share, Kegg?

Jan

Logic, pretention, a fondless for Diet Coca Cola that is unreasonable to the point of obsession.

Spoiler: The spoiler

The argument doesn't make sense otherwise. Either he's solely interested in that, or the other poster is misconstruing JMS's position. The argument goes that Ivanova/Lyta would have been too much of a repetition - well, fine. But that's not the only pairing JMS could have done and there are definitely other pairings that could have worked rather well... they're just all male.

 

[sidious618]

Oh, really? Just how do you know

Spoiler: spoiler

that JMS is "solely interested in female homosexuality"?

Anything you'd like to share, Kegg?

Jan

Logic, pretention, a fondless for Diet Coca Cola that is unreasonable to the point of obsession.

Spoiler: The spoiler

The argument doesn't make sense otherwise. Either he's solely interested in that, or the other poster is misconstruing JMS's position. The argument goes that Ivanova/Lyta would have been too much of a repetition - well, fine. But that's not the only pairing JMS could have done and there are definitely other pairings that could have worked rather well... they're just all male.

You're being silly.

Spoiler: B5

Both Franklin and Marcus acted as if they were a married couple in season 4. Also, if you look in the background you often see gay couples.

 

[Myasishchev]

As for the writer not having heard a racist joke, if memory serves (Jan, correct me if I'm wrong) Straczynski spent a fair portion of his childhood living in very poor, often multi racial neighbourhoods. Hardly a sheltered upbringing. So I'm sure he's encountered the odd racist comment.

I'm not saying that isn't the case; but it's so poorly written it sounds like it's coined by someone with only the foggiest notion of what racist jokes sound like.

Especially when the ending is already written. "A good start." The end to those jokes is always "a good start." At any rate, "redecorating" doesn't work in that context, because all the buildings and furniture and fixtures are still standing. If the planet had been bombed from orbit, it might be an okay joke.

Also, I wonder about such a maladapted virus that also is practically 100% infectious and fatal. Are the Makrabs all clones or something?

the temptation to make a Hindu joke here is overwhelming, as you can see, I'm uptight, not nice

I call it karmic redecorating.

 

[David cgc]

The right punchline would have been "a good start."
That's the true total xenophobe's answer.

"A Minbari bris" might have been clever.

I mean, come on. "How many Minbari does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" was at least a little funny, so we know it's theoretically possible for a humorous Babylon 5 joke to appear on-screen. Maybe JMS just didn't want to take the chance anyone might actually laugh.

 

[Myasishchev]

The right punchline would have been "a good start."
That's the true total xenophobe's answer.

"A Minbari bris" might have been clever.

They circumcized the planet?

I call that genital redecorating.

Wait, that actually works.

Yeah, Garibaldi got me, too, with his little joke. Jerk.

This, on the other hand, was hilarious. Sometimes a joke can be obvious but remain totally necessary and funny. It would've been positively detrimental if someone hadn't done it.

 

[Neroon]

BTW... in case anyone's interested, Jan is really a "Vicar".

Sorry to blow your cover, Jan.

Aw, Neroon...you told! Methinks that this calls for a visit from the Narn Bat Squad for you!

Jan

TrampTrampTrampTrampTrampTrampTramp

WHAMWHAMWHAMWHAMWHAMWHAMWHAM!

 

[Kegg]

Oh, really? Just how do you know

Spoiler: spoiler

that JMS is "solely interested in female homosexuality"?

Anything you'd like to share, Kegg?

Jan

Logic, pretention, a fondless for Diet Coca Cola that is unreasonable to the point of obsession.

Spoiler: The spoiler

The argument doesn't make sense otherwise. Either he's solely interested in that, or the other poster is misconstruing JMS's position. The argument goes that Ivanova/Lyta would have been too much of a repetition - well, fine. But that's not the only pairing JMS could have done and there are definitely other pairings that could have worked rather well... they're just all male.

You're being silly.

Spoiler: B5

Both Franklin and Marcus acted as if they were a married couple in season 4. Also, if you look in the background you often see gay couples.

Spoiler: spoiler

Why do yo think I chose them? As far as representations of gays go, I rate that momenet more significant than the whole Ivanova/Talia affair, because it suggests the possibility of male homosexuals and a society where gay marriage is normal and legal.

 

[Lindley]

Okay, now we're getting a bit high on the Coded Content Percentage.