A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

[Truth_Seeker]

Pretty good episode. The next ep is another clunker, unfortunately, but then the rest of the season is gold.

I think the stand alone episodes are a little underrated in this thread. Most of them contain a lot of important philosophic topics and show the various alien cultures in much more detail, making them more realistic and believable.

And some of them even have songs like:

"Aaaa yaaaa veee taaaa
lestero lestero veee eee eee"

 

[stonester1]

Not to mention all the other peeks at the characters and this unique universe. Totally agree the standalones are underrated here.

 

[TheGodBen]

I think the stand alone episodes are a little underrated in this thread. Most of them contain a lot of important philosophic topics and show the various alien cultures in much more detail, making them more realistic and believable.

Which would be fine if the episodes didn't find a way to cock things up somehow. I'm not opposed to standalone storytelling, I'm a fan of Star Trek after all, but I just don't think that the standalone episodes of this show are very good. Believers was very good, but other than that they've been mostly disappointing for me. Example:


Knives (*)

The Babylon Triangle? I have not heard of this before. I'm betting it's stupid. Oh look, a dead alien. And now the dead alien has grabbed Sheridan's face. Clearly Sheridan is now possessed by some sort of alien, I hope this episode doesn't drag on and pretend this is some sort of mystery. Oh look, Sheridan is seeing patterns which aren't there. That's a sure sign of being possessed by an alien. Now Sheridan sees some sort of monster that's not there. Another sure sign of an alien. Now Sheridan is seeing his wife's ship blow up real good. Alien. Now Sheridan sees a vision of his parents. I'm beginning to think that the big reveal in this episode is that Sheridan isn't possessed by an alien. Wait, no, he was possessed by an alien, and Dr Franklin is shocked by this revelation. Shocked I tell you! These guys needs to watch more Star Trek, they would have seen the alien coming a mile off.

Meanwhile, with Londo... This story got off to a slow start, and I'm angry at it for pulling that whole "I'm going to kill you, Londo, with this knife, but I'm going to wait two minutes for the credits to roll and then I'm going to reveal that I'm not really going to kill you" thing. But it did become sort of interesting in the middle as Londo began to learn the truth about the conspiracy he is involved in with Lord Refa, this episode has a chance to do something worthwhile yet!

LONDO: I sorted out that issue for you, my dear friend, by talking with Lord Refa, who also happens to be my dear friend.
URZA: Not Refa! He is my dear enemy and is trying to have me killed and stuff.

Oh, a falling out. I like this.

URZA: *throws sword onto table*

Oh no, please don't challenge him to a fight to the death!

URZA: I challenge you...

Please don't be a fight to the death.

URZA: ...to Morago!

Huh? That had better not be a fight to the death.

URZA: A fight to the death!

Balls!

Are Western human civilisations the only ones where fights to the death are illegal?

Is there some sort of rule that important episodes have to be followed by Lawrence G DiTillio episodes? Because I'm beginning to notice a pattern here.

Captain Greyshirt: 12

 

[Forbin]

^!

 

[Vestboy]

If memory serves, that's the last DiTillio episode. Ever. It's actually the last non-Straczynski episode, save one and a half in season 5.

I wonder if the real reason Straczynski took over the writing completely was because the other writers-- namely DiTillio-- were just writing Trek episodes (and weak ones at that) set in the B5 universe.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Is there some sort of rule that important episodes have to be followed by Lawrence G DiTillio episodes? Because I'm beginning to notice a pattern here.

"Knives" was the last Babylon 5 episode written by DiTillio... so, not anymore.

Actually, it was the last B5 episode written by someone else than J. Michael Straczynski until Season 5's "Day of the Dead" (which was penned by Neil Gaiman).

As for the episode itself... I kind of liked the Londo story, but the Sheridan stuff was of course bullshit.



EDIT: Do'h, Vestboy beat me to it! Anyway, here are the full writing statistics for the entire B5 franchise (there are only few TV shows where it is so easy to compile):

7 episodes: Lawrence G. DiTillio
3 episodes: D.C. Fontana, Peter David (one of them a Crusade episode)
2 episodes: Fiona Avery (both of them Crusade), Harlan Ellison did also co-write two episodes with JMS
1 episode each: Kathryn M. Drennan, Scott Frost, Neil Gaiman, David Gerrold, Christy Marx, Marc Scott Zicree

Everything else was written by JMS.

 

[Reverend]

URZA: A fight to the death!

Balls!

Are Western human civilisations the only ones where fights to the death are illegal?

Well you'll be glad to know it never happens again, ever.

On a completely unrelated matter and without trying to spoil anything; if at any time later in the series you hear the word "Denn-shah", I'd suggest you put your fingers in your ears and hum real loud until it's over.

 

[Hound of UIster]

If memory serves, that's the last DiTillio episode. Ever. It's actually the last non-Straczynski episode, save one and a half in season 5.

I wonder if the real reason Straczynski took over the writing completely was because the other writers-- namely DiTillio-- were just writing Trek episodes (and weak ones at that) set in the B5 universe.

I would think so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPqJShOIWxA

When you have writers like Peter David doing it, you know there is a problem.

 

[Can]

Knives was just like TKO...Half of the script is a personal struggle story one of the maincast which is meh ...mediocre...Other unrelated half is terrible at best...Mediocre does not balance terrible...

 

[Kegg]

The good thing about "Knives" is it's about Londo and Refa and Centauri.

...

Look, I'm grabbing at straws here, okay? I like Londo and Refa and the Centauri. It'd be better than Talia Winters headlining this story, that's for sure.

However, don't let anyone tell you you're out of the crapfest yet. Season two still has a lame hour or two under its belt which it must yet discharge... though it's also true it'll soon give you a nice bevvy of above-par episodes.

Which would be fine if the episodes didn't find a way to cock things up somehow. I'm not opposed to standalone storytelling, I'm a fan of Star Trek after all, but I just don't think that the standalone episodes of this show are very good. Believers was very good, but other than that they've been mostly disappointing for me.

Exactly.

The problem with DiTillio wasn't that he was writing Star Trek episodes (nor is this really a problem with the other writers, the rest of which were almost entirely Star Trek alumni of one sort or another in the first two seasons). The problem is he wanted to set up plot threads and arc material, but since it wasn't his own idea JMS had precious little interest in the world building DiTillio gave a stab at doing.

That, and his episodes frequently stunk, which is a problem that was more consistently an issue for random contributors.

I do take issue with this, though:

Most of them contain a lot of important philosophic topics and show the various alien cultures in much more detail,

The arc episodes do this more often and do it better. With the rare exception of an episode like "Believers" and, say,

Spoiler: episode title

"Confessions and Lamentations"

, I can't think of many standalones that dealt with 'important philosophic topics' half as well as many of the show's arc episodes. B5's best Big Questions are the ones integral to the arc.

So too, is it's exploration of alien cultures. We've already seen quite a bit of the Centauri at this point, for example, and the best Centauri material has been in stuff like "The Coming of Shadows".

Further, there's the fact many standalones don't try to do either of these things. "All Alone in the Night" gives us crap all on the important philosophic department and even less as to alien cultures (it's an alien-of-the-week episode, even if these aliens ever show up again.) "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum" gave us a helluva lot more on alien cultures than that episode.

 

[stonester1]

I liked the Sheridan part of "Knives", but the Londo story was MUCH better, and I LOVED it. Especially when it was revealed why Londo did what he did, and how Vir reacted to it.

Nice.

 

[Lindley]

I just liked seeing Jacob Carter with way too much hair.

 

[Myasishchev]

I actually did like the Londo bit in "Knives"; I felt bad for his buddy, and at least in a Centauri fight to the death, someone has the decency to die.

However, I think I've totally forgotten the Sheridan part, which does sound really stupid.

 

[DS9Continuing]

Another point - "Knives" was actually supposed to be broadcast and viewed before "In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum," so that Sheridan's hallucination of the Icarus being destroyed would remind us of it for the explanation to come in the next episode.

 

[Lindley]

The Sheridan storyline actually does have a subtle tie-in to the next episode, although it's not something you'd notice if you weren't looking for it.

 

[Myasishchev]

I have a general B5 question, that I didn't want to start a whole new thread for (but will if it's inappropriate to do here under spoiler cover), so here it is.

Spoiler: Shadows

Do they ever stop being inept? I'm up to a bit past "Z'Ha'Dum" and into season 4, and at every turn we see, the Shadows are reversed and often humiliatingly defeated.

In the first engagement between the White Star and a Shadow vessel, Sheridan destroys it with hyperspace, I'll grant because Sheridan is smart.

In the second engagement between the White Star and a Shadow vessel, Sheridan destroys it with Jupiter, because the Shadow ship is (perhaps understandably, since it just woke up) stupid.

In the third engagement, the White Star has allies, but they include the somewhat lame ally of the Narns. The Shadows are largely neutralized by telepaths. Maybe the Shadows should stop letting zombified humans run their ships for no particularly good reason. However, one Shadow ship is not completely neutralized, and is destroyed in a set-piece engagement between the White Star and a Narn battle cruiser! (A note on telepaths: aren't the Shadows telepaths, too? They do some things that look like telepathy when Ivanova and company set out to find Sheridan's corpse. Why do they have vulnerable humans operating systems flying their ships anyway? Wouldn't they be better at it?)

In another engagement, the Vorlons beat the shit out of the Shadows. It makes one wonder why the Vorlons aren't doing this more often, since it seems pretty easy for them.

Finally, in "Z'Ha'Dum," the Shadows pull off the coup de grace of utter stupidity, by letting Sheridan bring the White Star (instead of a shuttle, or a Starfury) into orbit around their home planet, and then bringing Sheridan to their capital city! And they don't do the brainwashing first! What, exactly, did they think was going to happen? Is it not blindingly obvious to them that he might crash the White Star into their planet? It was blindingly obvious to me, and I'm not nearly as old or wise as the Shadows are meant to be.

Also, didn't they just explain that the Shadows moved all their stuff underground to prevent things like this from happening? What's with the giant, transparent, shatterable dome over Z'Ha'Dum City? That's not underground. That's under glass. That's not preventing anything from getting in. If they were really underground, they'd be more-or-less nuke-proof. Why did Anna say they were underground if they're not underground? This is extremely troublesome.

And also again, why didn't the Shadows retaliate by destroying Babylon 5? I suppose it has something to do with their biological C3 apparatus on Z'Ha'Dum being injured, but isn't that a really bad way to design your organic ships? To permit them to feel pain, well, at all? Let alone pain from distant sources, let alone pain that debilitates or frightens to the point of rendering them combat ineffective?

I'll point out as well that the Shadows' ideology/philosophy is a little hypocritical, given that they themselves appear to have a completely centralized society and don't fight themselves, which would probably be the surest way to drive natural selection and would also have the benefit of not pissing other, saner people off.

So, seriously, do the Shadows ever get their act together and mess up those smug, cryptic Vorlon jerks, or what?

And since I said so many negative things, I want to say something positive. The Shadows' creature design, and their capital ship design, are absolutely, chillingly beautiful. Whoever came up with those, are geniuses. A lot of the designs and CGI in B5 are kinda standard (Earth Force excepted), and the White Star just leaves me cold, but the Shadows--they are iconic and terrifying.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

The Sheridan storyline actually does have a subtle tie-in to the next episode, although it's not something you'd notice if you weren't looking for it.

Spoiler: That subtle tie in to next episode

Franklin saying he knows a good Markab doctor?

 

[Lindley]

Pretty much.

I have a general B5 question, that I didn't want to start a whole new thread for (but will if it's inappropriate to do here under spoiler cover), so here it is.

Spoiler: Shadows

Do they ever stop being inept? I'm up to a bit past "Z'Ha'Dum" and into season 4, and at every turn we see, the Shadows are reversed and often humiliatingly defeated.

In the first engagement between the White Star and a Shadow vessel, Sheridan destroys it with hyperspace, I'll grant because Sheridan is smart.

In the second engagement between the White Star and a Shadow vessel, Sheridan destroys it with Jupiter, because the Shadow ship is (perhaps understandably, since it just woke up) stupid.

In the third engagement, the White Star has allies, but they include the somewhat lame ally of the Narns. The Shadows are largely neutralized by telepaths. Maybe the Shadows should stop letting zombified humans run their ships for no particularly good reason. However, one Shadow ship is not completely neutralized, and is destroyed in a set-piece engagement between the White Star and a Narn battle cruiser! (A note on telepaths: aren't the Shadows telepaths, too? They do some things that look like telepathy when Ivanova and company set out to find Sheridan's corpse. Why do they have vulnerable humans operating systems flying their ships anyway? Wouldn't they be better at it?)

In another engagement, the Vorlons beat the shit out of the Shadows. It makes one wonder why the Vorlons aren't doing this more often, since it seems pretty easy for them.

Finally, in "Z'Ha'Dum," the Shadows pull off the coup de grace of utter stupidity, by letting Sheridan bring the White Star (instead of a shuttle, or a Starfury) into orbit around their home planet, and then bringing Sheridan to their capital city! And they don't do the brainwashing first! What, exactly, did they think was going to happen? Is it not blindingly obvious to them that he might crash the White Star into their planet? It was blindingly obvious to me, and I'm not nearly as old or wise as the Shadows are meant to be.

Also, didn't they just explain that the Shadows moved all their stuff underground to prevent things like this from happening? What's with the giant, transparent, shatterable dome over Z'Ha'Dum City? That's not underground. That's under glass. That's not preventing anything from getting in. If they were really underground, they'd be more-or-less nuke-proof. Why did Anna say they were underground if they're not underground? This is extremely troublesome.

And also again, why didn't the Shadows retaliate by destroying Babylon 5? I suppose it has something to do with their biological C3 apparatus on Z'Ha'Dum being injured, but isn't that a really bad way to design your organic ships? To permit them to feel pain, well, at all? Let alone pain from distant sources, let alone pain that debilitates or frightens to the point of rendering them combat ineffective?

I'll point out as well that the Shadows' ideology/philosophy is a little hypocritical, given that they themselves appear to have a completely centralized society and don't fight themselves, which would probably be the surest way to drive natural selection and would also have the benefit of not pissing other, saner people off.

So, seriously, do the Shadows ever get their act together and mess up those smug, cryptic Vorlon jerks, or what?

And since I said so many negative things, I want to say something positive. The Shadows' creature design, and their capital ship design, are absolutely, chillingly beautiful. Whoever came up with those, are geniuses. A lot of the designs and CGI in B5 are kinda standard (Earth Force excepted), and the White Star just leaves me cold, but the Shadows--they are iconic and terrifying.

Spoiler: Answer

Well, two of those questions will become clearer very soon----why the Vorlons don't face the Shadows directly more often, and why the Shadows didn't destroy B5. Short version: it didn't fit their agenda to do so.

The Shadows themselves are not telepaths, but they do have telepathic technology such as the Eye, which is basically Z'Ha'Dum's main defense system. As for why this doesn't imply better defenses against telepaths, well, that isn't explained.

What is explained---not in the series, but in the canonical Passing of the Techno-Mages trilogy---is why the Eye didn't stop Whitestar 1 from making its Kamikaze run. Short version, there was another player on the scene running interference.

 

[Kegg]

The Sheridan storyline actually does have a subtle tie-in to the next episode, although it's not something you'd notice if you weren't looking for it.

Spoiler: That subtle tie in to next episode

Franklin saying he knows a good Markab doctor?

Yep.

Spoiler: That subtle tie in

But also that there's a Markab in the episode, albeit a dead one. This is one of the few times prior to "Confessions and Lamentations" they're ever mentioned by name, also.

I have a general B5 question, that I didn't want to start a whole new thread for (but will if it's inappropriate to do here under spoiler cover), so here it is.

Spoiler: Shadows

Do they ever stop being inept?

Spoiler: Shadows

Not really, insofar as they are still guys which our heroes can think of whats to outsmart or outmanouvre, and not all of those ways are airtight genius.

I'll give them Mars, though. That ship wasn't in control - and as for the humans, well, the humans are basically being used as part of the ship. That's beneath the Shadows, surely.

Spoiler: Shadows

And since I said so many negative things, I want to say something positive. The Shadows' creature design, and their capital ship design, are absolutely, chillingly beautiful. Whoever came up with those, are geniuses. A lot of the designs and CGI in B5 are kinda standard (Earth Force excepted), and the White Star just leaves me cold, but the Shadows--they are iconic and terrifying.

Eh. Honestly, not a fan of the Shadow starships. They're big black spider-things. I like the Minbari cruiser though, fins and all.

 

[Hyperspace05]

I know I'm beating a dead horse here... But again, when most of your post text is spoiler code, perhaps you should post it elsewhere?