A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

[Myasishchev]

All Alone in the Night (**)

Sheridan forgets the first rule of being a space captain; if you fly off on a mission only supported by redshirts you will be captured and they will all die. In this case Sheridan is abducted by some Greys who keep him hostage and force him to fight some aliens who are wearing evil mind controlling hats. It must have been horrible for the aliens wearing those hats, they were terribly unfashionable, I couldn't imagine how silly I'd look wearing one. Anyway, Sheridan shifts into Kirk-mode and refuses to kill the aliens for the Greys' enjoyment, he just beats them with big, heavy iron bars. In the end Sheridan teams up with a Narn and they both escape the horrible sci-fi cliché.

I'm guessing the Greys were gathering intel for the Shadows, but that doesn't excuse the story for sucking so bad.

I was wondering when you'd get to this one. It is ridiculously awful, isn't it? Sheridan was kidnapped for no particular reason by no particular body, and taken to their redressed basement.

I finally started watching B5 around the same time you did, but since I employed the simple expedient of skipping Season 1 more-or-less entirely. Hence I'm a little farther along; I understand I am also less the worse for wear.

The episode finally gets good as Sinclair and Admiral Leyton

Oh, and for Kegg:

Spoiler: about Inquisitor

The reveal just about ruins Comes the Inquisitor for me. It's kind of stupid--and kind of offensive, too. Was Adolf Hitler unavailable? If they (the Vorlons or the writers, take your pick) were going to spit on real-life corpses, they could've at least gone balls out.

 

[Hound of UIster]

Anyway, Neroon takes her place on the council, then he makes a speech which makes a lot of sense to me and makes me wish the Minbari had wiped out humanity while they had the chance. Shared souls, yeah right.

The minbari are very much a theocratic based government despite the claims of equal representation of all castes within their central government.

Even the name of the ruling body says it all; Grey Council- "grey" being the language of the Religious caste, Adrenato, (the Warriors are "dark", Vik, the Workers "light", Lenn-ah). In fact, I've been thinking about that...

Spoiler: Minbari goverernment and history.

"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light". The light, I assume, is Minbar, its cities of crystal (maintained by the workers, who speak "Light"). The candle is the symbol of hearth and home. The darkness is the distant threat of the shadows (the Grey Council was formed to stand against the Shadows during the last great war) and so the darkness means the war. The warriors go out and fight that war, far from home, living in violence and chaos. They become the darkness, in a sense. They speak "Dark" and their flagship is the Black Star. The Grey Council is on a ship, situated neither on Minbar nor in the dark places where the warriors fight. So, they stand between the candle and the star. This leaves us with the Religious caste as Grey. The Religious caste, who keep the prophecies and are allied with or direct the Anla'shok, would be between the warriors holding the line and the workers building and maintaining the cities. The Anla'shok serve the One. Valen, whose memory they honour, was an aspect of the One (the One who was). Valen created the council. So, is the Grey Council supposed to reflect the religious caste? If so, what does this mean for the supposed unity of the castes, all equal? Is this partly why the warriors are so concerned about religious influence over the Council that they risk upsetting the balance by replacing Delenn with Neroon?

I think the Religious Caste just has preeminence above the others within Minbari society and the Council by being the de facto arbiters and caretakers of Valen's legacy. Before the war, the warriors probably deferred to them. The disgrace of surrender at the Line could have lead to them rethinking the arrangement and trying to take political power into their own hands.

 

[Reverend]

No, they don't and that's the whole point of the council. Before the council was formed, the three castes spent as much time and energy fighting each other as anything else, even clans within the castes fought for dominance.
The council is specifically designed to create a balance - nine members, three from each caste - so that no one caste has dominance or preeminence over the other two.

As for Adronato being the "grey" language, I've heard it before but have yet to find a credible source. Regardless, the term "Grey Council" isn't meant to bestow superiority on on faction or another, it's an expression that they are not any one extreme, hence; "I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light."

 

[Kegg]

I'd agree with the sentiment there's a strong theocratic leaning in the Minbari government. If anything, Delenn may have upset that by refusing the leadership position gladly offered to her, and Neroon's appointment probably reflects that.

Spoiler: On recurring characters

I just suspect Marshall Teague was available for Ta'Lon, and, once again, JMS made a virtue of conveinence. Teague had appeared in the first season as a human, after all, and would go on to be an unrelated human in Crusade.

Spoiler: about Inquisitor

The reveal just about ruins Comes the Inquisitor for me. It's kind of stupid--and kind of offensive, too. Was Adolf Hitler unavailable? If they (the Vorlons or the writers, take your pick) were going to spit on real-life corpses, they could've at least gone balls out.

Spoiler: about Inquisitor

Or, given the title, Torquemada?

Yeah, Jack the Ripper is a very cliched choice. Still the episode is what works best in B5, which is two people in a room arguing about Important Words. Another one of my favourite episodes is pretty much exactly that, you'll know if when you see it.

 

[TheGodBen]

I finally started watching B5 around the same time you did, but since I employed the simple expedient of skipping Season 1 more-or-less entirely. Hence I'm a little farther along; I understand I am also less the worse for wear.

Bah, that's cheating! The rest of us had to watch Infection, (I had to watch it twice! ) so don't think you can get away without watching it so simply.


Acts of Sacrifice (***½)

An interesting episode here, one that has many engaging moments but which never fully comes together, and the conclusion to both plots left me unsatisfied. Let's start with the a-plot, G'Kar tries to gain military aid from Earth and the Minbari in order to protect civilian Narn, but to do this he must keep the Narn on the station under control. There's some good moments, the best being the scene where he tries to convince Delenn only to realise that his past sentiments towards Londo and the Centauri have damaged his reputation with the other races. Sadly, the part where he tries to control the Narn isn't as interesting, and like a thousand other sci-fi shows before it, it ended with a knife fight. Realising that he went through all this trouble only to get a half-assed and unofficial response to the civilian problem was good, although I did have some trouble telling if G'Kar left the meeting crying or trying to do an evil laugh. That was unfortunate.

As an aside to that story, I liked the little bit about Londo feeling ostracised from most of society because of his actions in starting the war, and realising that the only friend he really wanted was Garibaldi. The resolution was a bit underwhelming, but I still enjoyed that first scene in the bar with Garibaldi.

Initially the b-plot felt like a distraction from the more interesting a-plot, but I found myself enjoying it at points. I did like the fact that the aliens were impressed by the lurkers down on brown sector and decided to try and implement a similar social policy on their own world in order to keep the "inferior" parts of their society down, I thought that was clever and amusing. Deciding to shift that plot to one where Ivanova has to have sex with the guy wasn't as amusing, at least not to me, and I didn't find her screaming dance nearly as funny as the episode seemed to expect me to. 'Tis a pity.

Scott Bakula: 29

 

[stonester1]

Most consider that a classic scene, guy.

 

[Kegg]

Realising that he went through all this trouble only to get a half-assed and unofficial response to the civilian problem was good, although I did have some trouble telling if G'Kar left the meeting crying or trying to do an evil laugh.

Crying and laughing, I think, it was one of those moments of bitter absurdity.

I did like the fact that the aliens were impressed by the lurkers down on brown sector and decided to try and implement a similar social policy on their own world in order to keep the "inferior" parts of their society down, I thought that was clever and amusing. Deciding to shift that plot to one where Ivanova has to have sex with the guy wasn't as amusing, at least not to me, and I didn't find her screaming dance nearly as funny as the episode seemed to expect me to. 'Tis a pity.

Pretty much exactly what I thought. The social commentary was cute, but the sex scene was an idea gone spectacularly awry. Yetch.

 

[sidious618]

Yeah, the dance scene. Not sure how that seemed like a good idea.

 

[Reverend]

I think this episode is where Claudia Christian's real personality really begins to merge with Ivanova. Note that at no point did she mention being Russian, hating Psi Corps or having a dead family.

As for G'Kar's last reaction, it's both laughter and tears. He got what he asked for, it will help his people but for all his efforts it's not nearly as much as he'd hoped for. Hysterical ambivalence probably sums it up well enough.

 

[Can]

As for G'Kar's last reaction, it's both laughter and tears. He got what he asked for, it will help his people but for all his efforts it's not nearly as much as he'd hoped for. Hysterical ambivalence probably sums it up well enough.

It is like he humbled and humiliated himself both among ambassadors and among his fellow Narns. He even got wounded to keep them under control...And at the end what he got...Instead of military help he hoped for , only left over food and means to smuggle a few of his people. And even for that he should be or at least appear to be grateful !..He both laughs and cries to absudity and terrible tragedy of it...

 

[stonester1]

I think this episode is where Claudia Christian's real personality really begins to merge with Ivanova. Note that at no point did she mention being Russian, hating Psi Corps or having a dead family.

As for G'Kar's last reaction, it's both laughter and tears. He got what he asked for, it will help his people but for all his efforts it's not nearly as much as he'd hoped for. Hysterical ambivalence probably sums it up well enough.

Exactly.

 

[Seven of Five]

Happy 1000 posts thread!

Sorry I haven't been dropping in with any regularity - work is teh sucks! Still read the thread though and the reviews are always interesting. Sometimes we agree, sometimes not - I love that goofy Ivanova sex scene you drunken Irish Bakula whore! Either way, they're always fun.

I'm glad you've taken to Londo and G'Kar as they're easily the best characters in the show.

 

[D Man]

I have to say that the "Ivanova goofy alien sex scene" is one of the worst scenes in the entire show, IMO. Season 2 is where Susan really starts finding her footing as a character, then it's reduced to this complete and utter nonsense. Scenes like this are where I honestly can't even see what they were going for; it just Does Not Work on any level for me. Sometimes, B5 humor fires on all cylinders...sometimes, it just doesn't.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I have to say that the "Ivanova goofy alien sex scene" is one of the worst scenes in the entire show, IMO. Season 2 is where Susan really starts finding her footing as a character, then it's reduced to this complete and utter nonsense. Scenes like this are where I honestly can't even see what they were going for; it just Does Not Work on any level for me. Sometimes, B5 humor fires on all cylinders...sometimes, it just doesn't.

To me, the funny is not the dance itself, but the Ambassador's response (or lack of). The chuckle the Lower Lumati Taq gives as they leave is the funny part for me- I mean, obviously the Higher Lumati knew what she was doing, but was too proud to admit it. I think if you look at it that way it works- it's not the details of what Ivanova did (which I agree aren't really funny), more the overall gall of what she did, and the need for the "superior" Lumati to save face.

Or maybe that's just this big-B5-fan's desperate justification for the scene.

 

[AdmiralGarak]

I haven't rewatched the show since it was on TNT, and the Ivanova dance thing had been pleasantly blocked from memory. Just remembering it makes me cringe.

Thanks a lot.


Honestly, though. I remember the scene being so overboard and ludicrous, that it was fun in an MST3K sort of way.

 

[stonester1]

I have to say that the "Ivanova goofy alien sex scene" is one of the worst scenes in the entire show, IMO. Season 2 is where Susan really starts finding her footing as a character, then it's reduced to this complete and utter nonsense. Scenes like this are where I honestly can't even see what they were going for; it just Does Not Work on any level for me. Sometimes, B5 humor fires on all cylinders...sometimes, it just doesn't.

To me, the funny is not the dance itself, but the Ambassador's response (or lack of). The chuckle the Lower Lumati Taq gives as they leave is the funny part for me- I mean, obviously the Higher Lumati knew what she was doing, but was too proud to admit it. I think if you look at it that way it works- it's not the details of what Ivanova did (which I agree aren't really funny), more the overall gall of what she did, and the need for the "superior" Lumati to save face.

Or maybe that's just this big-B5-fan's desperate justification for the scene.

First, no justification necessary. Second, the cleverness of the scene worked on several levels, that being one of them. And that's one of several elements that make that scene COMPLETELY work for me.

I honestly think that some science fiction fans get uncomfortable around sex in their stories, unless it deals with it in the GRAVEST of terms, and preferably draws the curtain.

Sex can be goofy, and this scene acknowledged it admirably.

Loved it then, love it now.

 

[RandyS]

I have to say that the "Ivanova goofy alien sex scene" is one of the worst scenes in the entire show,

Agreed. JMS' humor is usually very funny, but this.......I don't know what he was thinking. Or IF he was thinking. He could have been drunk.

Well, there ARE exceptions to every rule.

 

[TheGodBen]

I honestly think that some science fiction fans get uncomfortable around sex in their stories, unless it deals with it in the GRAVEST of terms, and preferably draws the curtain.

Sex can be goofy, and this scene acknowledged it admirably.

Sex isn't the issue here, the problem is that Ivanova's brilliant plan was to jump around and scream like a lunatic while making cheap jokes about how romance is dead. Now I know what it feels like to dance for other people's amusement, and it can be funny, but I'd never claim that my dancing was brilliantly clever, it was just me doing something unexpected and stupid at a time when unexpected stupid things are called for. When cunning is called for I'd like to think that I'd be able to come up with something smarter than dancing.

Case in point the chicken dance, that's funny because GOB's an idiot.

 

[stonester1]

I honestly think that some science fiction fans get uncomfortable around sex in their stories, unless it deals with it in the GRAVEST of terms, and preferably draws the curtain.

Sex can be goofy, and this scene acknowledged it admirably.

Sex isn't the issue here, the problem is that Ivanova's brilliant plan was to jump around and scream like a lunatic while making cheap jokes about how romance is dead. Now I know what it feels like to dance for other people's amusement, and it can be funny, but I'd never claim that my dancing was brilliantly clever, it was just me doing something unexpected and stupid at a time when unexpected stupid things are called for. When cunning is called for I'd like to think that I'd be able to come up with something smarter than dancing.

Like what? The guy wanted sex, claimed it was their custom. Claimed superiority in all things. Ivanova didn't want it, and played on his pride to get out of it. And had some fun in the process, mocking some of the silliness of some human mating customs.

Sounds clever to me.

 

[Kegg]

^
Not really. He may be completely ignorant of human mating, but is he going to be fooled into thinking running around and yelling constitutes their sexual activity? There's barely any physical contact or other method of transference. Heaven forbid the guy was a scientist who wanted to study it in greater detail, she'd be royally screwed (ha, see, I am as witty as JMS).