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Colonization in the UFP

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Penta--Interesting point about natural growth rates, and one I have given much thought to. I've sent you a PM, though, because the application to my own stories (which are NOT UFP-based) would take the thread off topic.

(I do wonder, though, if colonial birthrates are significantly higher than homeworld ones.)
 
Colonial family sizes are probably larger. There may be incentives, social or political, for Earth residents to have small families, zero population growth. Kirk, Picard and Sisko are the only ones I can think of who have siblings. On colonies couples may be able to "cut lose" and grow big families. A desire for multiple children would be a factor in deciding to emigrate from Earth.
 
T'Girl: Or, there's an Earth-wide "One child law".

Somehow, incentives or force, either seems creepy to me.
 
There are a multitude of variables that determine family size today; everything from women having the ability to negotiate sex and contraceptives, income level, and believe it or not literacy rates. I'm assuming however, that a small family is the norm on ST Earth for the same reasons it is in RL developed nations.
 
I'm not quite sure it's a "rule" per se, but I could imagine social pressure being leveled against people whose families get "too big."
 
I wonder would colonials have lots of children for the same reasons farmers had lots of kids back in the day?
 
I'm not quite sure it's a "rule" per se, but I could imagine social pressure being leveled against people whose families get "too big."


Ok you have really creepy theories about ST humans. The creepy factor is heightened because there are things you can point to about ST 'evolved' humans that has always raised my creepy level. So stop creeping me out! jk
 
Wasn't it stated in TNG that people for the most part colonize other planets because they want to seek new challenges?
Picard stated as much.

I doubt there is pressure of any kind involved.
More to the point, it's the challenge of building a new home somewhere else and help creating a new way of life.

I am also sometimes amazed that some people watching Trek assume that humans would never change in the capacity as described in the show itself or find that Trek humans are portrayed as 'perfect'.
I haven't seen 'perfect' to be honest ... even during TNG.

At least during early seasons of TNG Humans seemed more mature as a species overall.

What some people find a turn-off on the other hand is the lack of same behaviour as it's exhibited today.
This need for finding similarities between contemporary Humans and future ones is quite frankly absurd (in my opinion).

But, some people apparently need to find commonalities in order to get into it ... that's fine, but one cannot expect to have a realistic portrayal of future Human society if everything stays the same.

And one of the biggest mistakes other Trek writers did with the characters as the shows progressed is how they rewrote them to behave in essentially the same capacity like contemporary humans.
Enterprise could get away with it given the time period it was set in, but late TNG, VOY and DS9 don't have this excuse.

Sisko for example was dwelling on issues long forgotten by his time period, and others were at times written in a capacity to behave like whiny children (incidentally, a capacity that is prevalent in much of contemporary society).
 
Cheapjack: I was going to be polite, but I lost that version of my post. Hence, I'm too aggravated to bother being polite.

You're basically barging into...this is the second thread of mine so far...And saying we're not proper Trek fans because we don't believe as you do. Because we dare to decide for the purposes of something else entirely that the UFP uses standard economics, or that the "evolved society" stuff is propaganda.

Go away. Please. You want to argue those things, create a thread about them. I'll be happy to argue them there.

But don't, don't go about presuming you somehow have the right to declare what a proper Trek fan believes.
---

With that said: I figured it'd be best to put, in Q&A format, what seem to be the most common objections I haven't yet addressed (or if I have I lost track):

Q1. This all takes too long.
A1. Yes, it does. (5-7 years at minimum, I figure, from discovery of the planet to landing of the colonization party.) This is, however, meant to describe situations nearly ideal - where the UFP has the luxury of time to "do colonization properly". Member State colonization may go faster. Colonization of sites of scientific or military interest may have a timeline that is heavily compressed by comparison. Unofficial ventures hardly need to follow this layout. But this is the process that makes a colony an official UFP civilian colony. It has the most support of any of those colony types before the mission sets out, while it is en route, and when it arrives at the planet, not to mention afterward. (Military and scientific endeavors respectively may not have the same pre-mission planning and coordination, among other things.)

Q2. The colonies described here seem really small.
A2. They are. My gut instinct puts the Initial Landing Party of a colony at no more than 2,000 people. This is tiny for a planetary scale. But Trek colonies seem to swing randomly between really tiny and utterly huge. It seemed better writing to describe a colony as starting out small. I cannot explain, not in a way that makes sense, how a colony can get to millions or billions using established TNG-era ship sizes (which generally are less than 3,000 people even on the largest ships) and a time span less than a century. That's with incredibly optimistic natural growth rates, too.

Q3. But....replciators!
A3. Ah, the replicator. Seems to blow everything off course! Replicators for food (by the TNG tech manual, first printing (Nov 1991), page 153-154) are definitely implied to be a second choice over real food. They're like institutional food today, a step above MREs or traditional space-food, but not by much. When any character can get it, they seem to prefer real food. For tools, keep in mind that you need raw materials and you're working at strictly molecular resolution. You can replicate a lot of spare parts, but not everything.

Finally, replicators themselves are said to take a lot of energy. If there are two things a colonization mission does not have, it is spare mass and spare energy. Replicators definitely seem to require more energy than a simple fusion reactor can put out.

Penta,

I've felt quite insulted too. It's hinted that I'm a sucker, and a fool,cos I fall for the opening dialogue, which IS relevant to the colonisation aspect, as it states that curiousity is one of the reasons why the series and exploration exists. That opening dialogue has made me well up at times, and whether you like it or not, is part of human nature.

People saying that the whole thing is basically selfish and amoral, and there are NO other aspects. People today aren't totally selfish and amoral and can be motivated by other things. That's not why I watch it, and I don't think I'm the only one.

I have answered your question about colonisation. I don't think it will be as aquistive and rapacious as in our time, I think rare medicines will be the main reason why the Federation will get involved in a dispute and I don't think that the colonies will be owned as much by the federation as colonies are today. They will be largely autonomous and will be given protection whether or not they trade with the Federation, because they are human. (Altruism again). We do this with Africa, now.

There you go.
 
I wonder would colonials have lots of children for the same reasons farmers had lots of kids back in the day?

Because you could expect a fair number of kids to die during childhood? Probably not.

It's....how to put this. I don't see a one-child social pressure or rule being implemented in canon Trek, but absent one I have no particular clue how they generate the sheer mass number of people required to emigrate the core worlds in order to grow colonies in a reasonable timeframe. It's not about humanity being different or not or anything...It's, I don't see why anyone would leave the paradise that Earth is described as.
 
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I wonder would colonials have lots of children for the same reasons farmers had lots of kids back in the day?

Because you could expect a fair number of kids to die during childhood? Probably not.

It's....how to put this. I don't see a one-child social pressure or rule being implemented in canon Trek, but absent one I have no particular clue how they generate the sheer mass number of people required to emigrate the core worlds in order to grow colonies in a reasonable timeframe. It's not about humanity being different or not or anything...It's, I don't see why anyone would leave the paradise that Earth is described as.

I don't think you would need a MASS of people. I think you could even have a colony of one, or two. Look at Flint. He managed to survive on his own with high technology.
 
People saying that the whole thing is basically selfish and amoral, and there are NO other aspects.
No, they aren't. Yet you keep saying they are.

Exactly. Humans will undoubtedly have their good sides, too. But the problem I have is this assumption that human nature (as opposed to human biology) can actually evolve. Trying to stop evil on the individual AND societal level is like trying to stop a faucet with your finger...stop it in one area, and it will inevitably find another one, even if the part your thumb is over isn't flowing. It'll just spray somewhere else.
 
I wonder would colonials have lots of children for the same reasons farmers had lots of kids back in the day?

Because you could expect a fair number of kids to die during childhood? Probably not.

To be fair, that wasn't the only reason.
Children were a source of additional labor.
Children were your source of income in retirement.
There weren't a lot of equally cheap forms of entertainment, and contraception was virtually unknown.

Of course, those reasons probably went away too. :)
 
If there is some form of tax system in the UFP, it could be structured in such a way to incentivize a stable population on the core worlds and a rapidly growing population on the colonies.

It really comes down to how you view the strategic colonization policy of the Federation, what I'll break down (admittedly somewhat arbitrarily) into the Penta Camp and Matt Camp.

Penta Camp: Colonization is small-scale and initiated by the colonists, with the acceptance of the Federation.

Matt Camp: Colonization is directed as a top priority of the UFP, and the colonists are persuaded to take care through incentives (to be clear, since I accept the enlightened nature of the UFP, I must stress that persuaded is NEVER coerced).

Penta, I intend no offence at having summed up your detailed thoughts so tersely, nor at having established you and I in direct opposition. I'm sure that actual UFP colonization occurs somewhere in the middle of those two artificial extremes. But it's worth establishing them as reference points so that the rest of the conversation can use them.

Linking it to the above comments on population growth rates, in a Penta system, people would have as many kids as they'd want for their own personal reasons, and given the multi-species/multi-cultural nature of the UFP, God only knows what that number might be.

In a Matt system, it might be six kids per family for the first generation, four kids per family for the next two...two each after that.

Enough, combined with enormous immigration of the excess population growth of the already settled systems, could essentially settle an entire world in, what? 50-100 years?
 
Enough, combined with enormous immigration of the excess population growth of the already settled systems, could essentially settle an entire world in, what? 50-100 years?

Matt,

Do you really think it is evolved behaviour to have excessive population growth, so high that a native planet could not absorb it? Doesn't America give condoms to Africa, now, freely,for this very reason?

It is more likely that curiousity and ensuring survival by putting a couple of thousand or million people on another planet will be the main impetus. If we don't like Africa reproducing beyond their means, now, it is unlikely that humans in the future will do it.
 
Matt,

Do you really think it is evolved behaviour to have excessive population growth, so high that a native planet could not absorb it?

You infer, incorrectly, that I was suggesting the natural population growth on a core system was undesired or unintended.

On the contrary. I view it as policy — stable core system population growth feeding a constant colonial expansion effort throughout the ever-expanding volume of Federation territory.
 
Matt,

Do you really think it is evolved behaviour to have excessive population growth, so high that a native planet could not absorb it?

You infer, incorrectly, that I was suggesting the natural population growth on a core system was undesired or unintended.

On the contrary. I view it as policy — stable core system population growth feeding a constant colonial expansion effort throughout the ever-expanding volume of Federation territory.

Matt:

If the local planet can't support the population growth, it's not stable or natural. We humans on earth now have culls to stop animals doing this. Is it any wonder ST has show so many instances of aliens we bump into who don't do this and object to us doing it? It's cause more trouble than enough!
 
Matt:

If the local planet can't support the population growth, it's not stable or natural. We humans on earth now have culls to stop animals doing this. Is it any wonder ST has show so many instances of aliens we bump into who don't do this and object to us doing it? It's cause more trouble than enough!

Another false inference, sir — that the optimum population level of a core sector world is the same thing as the maximum that can be supported. I'm sure that the Federation could pack them in Trantor-style on Earth almost without limit, but at the certain point, various factors (certainly including by by no means limited to ecological ones) would kick in to pose a limit on the upper number of sentients that each biosphere SHOULD hold, which is far from the same thing as overpopulation.

The reason could indeed be entirely defensive and bureaucratic — a sense that having too many sentients on any one planet, even if that number is far below the technologically augmented capacity of the planet's natural resources — is putting too many frail eggs in one, easily targetted basket.
 
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