Most morally questionable act by a protagonist?

[Nerys Ghemor]

I guess in the 24th century, folks don't hold grudges anymore?

Yeah, apparently, unless you're a "primitive" Bajoran, Cardassian, or Klingon--i.e. nonhuman. Or if your name is Jean-Luc Picard, and then you deny it all day until it's finally shoved in front of your nose where you can't deny it anymore.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

I would also mention "Memorial," where Captain Janeway becomes a willful participant in the brainwashing of potentially thousands of unwary travelers who pass too close to that planet.

Sorry, but this is a non-issue. The memorial was set up the way it was set up to make people really understand and remember what happened, perhaps as a way of making sure it doesn't really happen ever again-something I wish existed in real life, on Earth now, so that massacres and genocides like Rwanda don't happen again.

And while it may not be morally questionable, I thought it was certainly boneheaded: "The Communicator." Due to Captain Archer's extremely narrow definition of "cultural contamination," he nearly starts a nuclear war on this planet. Rather than reveal the existence of extra-terrestrial life to the planet's natives, he lied to them, which led them to believe that their enemy had developed sophisticated genetic technology to create some kind of super-soldiers. It could have very easily created such unease in the balance of power that they would have chosen a preemptive nuclear strike. This was the episode that was so stupid & frustrating that I gave up on Enterprise as a regular viewer.

Sorry, but this too is a non-issue. Consider what Archer did a precursor to the Prime Directive, and leave it at that, even with what happened. Too bad the captain of the Horizon in the TOS episode 'A Piece Of The Action' wasn't that smart; would've saved a whole lot of trouble, and lives.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

i can't understand why janeway is criticized for the death of tuvix. doesn't she have the responsibility to save the lives of her crew and friends?

That would be because this Dr Mengele wannabe KILLED IN COLD BLOOD A SENTIENT BEING in order to chop her up for spare organs.

It's equivalent to a contemporary doctor killing a healthy person in order to harvest her organs and use them to save two persons who are on their deathbed.

No, it was a case of two sentient beings who, with no say in the matter, were fused into one being and thus trapped in said form with no way to voice their displeasure over the situation. Tuvix can't be believed when he says he spoke for them because he naturally wouldn't want to "die". It's like two innocent people having their parts removed without which they can't really live, and now the choice is to put those parts back in the rightful owners or not while some third guy who got the parts brushes their concerns about the other two aside.

And please, if she left Tuvix alone then we'd just be here complaining she didn't do anything to help Tuvok and Neelix.

Of course Tuvok/Neelix had no say in them dying/being practically dead. No sick person has a saying in her becoming sick.

And of course Tuvix doesn't speak for Tuvok/Neelix. He's his own person, separated from Tuvok/Neelix.

"As I said: this Dr Mengele wannabe KILLED IN COLD BLOOD A SENTIENT BEING in order to chop her up for spare organs.

It's equivalent to a contemporary doctor killing a healthy person in order to harvest her organs and use them to save two persons who are on their deathbed."
If you think that's moral - well, I guess you think the criminal organizations who traffic organs do nothing wrong. After all, for each healthy person they kill, they save 2-3 sick ones, right?

And if Janeway would have left Tuvix alone, I would have commended her for making the correct moral decision.

 

[Anwar]

I wouldn't have, I'd have been PO'ed that she abandoned two still-living crew members to a trapped an unnatural existence just because the result of a freak accident asked her to. Their two lives aren't less important than his, and they had the right to their independent existence.

It's akin to letting someone who lives off of someone elses' stolen organs when the organs can be restored to the people they were stolen from in the first place. What did those other two people who got robbed do to deserve to not live?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

"Of course Tuvok/Neelix had no say in them dying/being practically dead. No sick person has a saying in her becoming sick.

And of course Tuvix doesn't speak for Tuvok/Neelix. He's his own person, separated from Tuvok/Neelix.

"As I said: this Dr Mengele wannabe KILLED IN COLD BLOOD A SENTIENT BEING in order to chop her up for spare organs.

It's equivalent to a contemporary doctor killing a healthy person in order to harvest her organs and use them to save two persons who are on their deathbed."
If you think that's moral - well, I guess you think the criminal organizations who traffic organs do nothing wrong. After all, for each healthy person they kill, they save 2-3 sick ones, right?

And if Janeway would have left Tuvix alone, I would have commended her for making the correct moral decision. "

I wouldn't have, I'd have been PO'ed that she abandoned two still-living crew members to a trapped an unnatural existence just because the result of a freak accident asked her to. Their two lives aren't less important than his, and they had the right to their independent existence.

It's akin to letting someone who lives off of someone elses' stolen organs when the organs can be restored to the people they were stolen from in the first place. What did those other two people who got robbed do to deserve to not live?

AND WHAT DID TUVIX DO NOT TO DESERVE TO LIVE?
Tuvix did not steal Tuvok/Nellix's organs. No one is guilty for this. Tuvix is only 'guilty' for being alive.

Tuvix has the right to his existence, too. Or do you want to deny him this right? If so, on which basis? Why didn't Tuvix have the right to live?

And guess what? Tuvix was alive and healthy, Tuvok/Neelix were dead/practically dead.
You don't kill a healthy being who did nothing wrong to save another being, Anwar - it's immoral, grotesque.

Janeway killed an innocent sentient being in cold blood in order to save her friends. Deal with it.

 

[Anwar]

What did Tuvok and Neelix do to deserve their non-existence?

Tuvix was only alive because a freak accident stole what belonged to two other healthy, living beings WITHOUT killing them. They were retrievable, they weren't dead. You don't abandon two others who did nothing wrong just because a third one says so to save his own hide, it's immoral and cowardly.

Janeway had the courage to save two others while a third complained she had no right to save them. That the other crewmembers and even the Doctor all turned their backs on Neelix and Tuvok showed what cowards THEY are.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

@Anwar
So - it's immoral to spare the life of an innocent sentient being who fights for his life because if you chop this person up for spare parts, you can save two persons who lie on their death bed.
You live in reverse land or what, Anwar? Your affirmations are just ridiculous.

The simple fact is that Tuvix was alive and Tuvok/Nellix were dying.
And Tuvix, like any other sentient being, HAS THE RIGHT TO LIVE, regardless of how he was born. THAT'S A BASIC MORAL PRECEPT, Anwar.

YOU DON'T KILL AN INNOCENT PERSON TO SAVE ANOTHER, Anwar - and if you do, you have NO right to call yourself moral.
Of course, you disagree - I guess you would have nothing against being kidnapped and killed by some Dr Mengele, as long as your organs serve to save 2-3 very sick people - after all, according to you, whoever did this to you had the 'courage' to do the 'moral' thing.

 

[Anwar]

It's immoral to do nothing to rectify the theft of organs from two innocent people. Tuvok and Neelix were just as alive as anyone else, but as a result of circumstance were "trapped" and the only way to release them from what was essentially a living death was to rectify the initial "organ theft". To NOT do so was immoral and insulting to both of them.

YOU DON'T LEAVE TWO INNOCENT PEOPLE JUST BECAUSE A THIRD ONE SAID SO. THAT is the thing that makes you immoral.

If I was a thief who stole the organs from two other people, then I would get what I deserve when those who wanted those innocent people to live came for me.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

one even bashed janeway for changing the timeline in endgame. geez, she's got to care for her crew, not the very remote chance to undo the universe. her main objective changed anyway, from bringing the crew home to destroying the borg transwarp hub with its aperture near earth (probably used by the borg in first contact).

Unlikely. If they had used the transwarp aperture near Earth in First Contact, then why did they first stop off to destroy the colony on Ivor Prime?

Furthermore, why didn't the Borg use that route to reach Earth in "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II" rather than traveling by standard warp?

I would also mention "Memorial," where Captain Janeway becomes a willful participant in the brainwashing of potentially thousands of unwary travelers who pass too close to that planet.

Sorry, but this is a non-issue. The memorial was set up the way it was set up to make people really understand and remember what happened, perhaps as a way of making sure it doesn't really happen ever again-something I wish existed in real life, on Earth now, so that massacres and genocides like Rwanda don't happen again.

While informing people about past genocides is a fine, worthy goal, she doesn't have the right to force those images into someone else's head without their consent. Also, she doesn't know what really happened on that planet. She has no idea who any of these people really were, if events really happened the way the memorial depicted them, or what the agenda might have been of the people who erected it.

I always thought the moral heavyhandedness of "Nothing Human" was misplaced. Because they disagreed with how Dr. Moset conducted his experiments, they decided it would be best to delete the results from their computer. So now, not only did dozens of Bajorans suffer due to his actions, but if Starfleet had their way, they also would have died for nothing. Dr. Moset's methods were thoroughly reprehensible and he deserves severe punishment for his war crimes. However, knowledge itself is neither inherently good nor evil. While we should never advocate what Dr. Moset did, we shouldn't refuse to use his knowledge on pure principle. If you can't change the past, let at least some minor good come of this horror.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

It's immoral to do nothing to rectify the theft of organs from two innocent people. Tuvok and Neelix were just as alive as anyone else, but as a result of circumstance were "trapped" and the only way to release them from what was essentially a living death was to rectify the initial "organ theft". To NOT do so was immoral and insulting to both of them.

YOU DON'T LEAVE TWO INNOCENT PEOPLE JUST BECAUSE A THIRD ONE SAID SO. THAT is the thing that makes you immoral.

If I was a thief who stole the organs from two other people, then I would get what I deserve when those who wanted those innocent people to live came for me.

Again in your reverse world, Anwar.

Sometimes, a person gets sick. This person was "just as alive as anyone else", but, "as a result of circumstance", is dying. According to you, it's OK to chop up a sentient being who did absolutely nothing wrong in order to save this person - because the sick person has the right to live. NEWSFLASH: the being you want to chop up has the right to live, too - and you don't have the RIGHT to deny her life.

Sometimes, the mother dies in the birth of a child. Accordinng to you, this child has 'no right to live', chopping him up for spare parts is the right thing to do. According to you, this child 'stole' his mother's life, is 'guilty' for this.

YOU DON'T LEAVE TWO INNOCENT PEOPLE JUST BECAUSE A THIRD ONE SAID SO. THAT is the thing that makes you immoral.

Anwar, if a sick person asks you to kill a healty person for her organs, YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO KILL THIS INNOCENT HEALTHY BEING in order to save the sick one! It's grotesque, Anwar. It's immoral.

YOU DON'T KILL AN INNOCENT SENTIENT BEING TO SAVE ANOTHER, Anwar. You don't kill a newborn to chop him up in order to save a sick person - and that's exactly what that Dr Mengele wannabe - Janeway - did.

Oh, I'm sure in the reverse world in which you live, killing a person in order to harvest her organs for transplant is 'moral' and 'courageous'.
For the rest of humanity, that's atrociously immoral.

 

[Anwar]

Tuvok and Neelix weren't "sick" or "dying", they were trapped in a state of non-life (basically, a fate worse than death) and were TOTALLY retrievable. However, a third guy who was the result of their fate worse than death who was looking out for himself refused to do anything to help either of them.

A mother dying in the birth of the child? Sad, but it was her choice to have the child and live with the consequences (or not live, in this case). Tuvok and Neelix were never asked, nor had a choice.

You don't abandon two living, healthy people just because the guy who basically stole their lives said so. It's cruel, unfair to them, and generally a mockery of life. Janeway did the right thing as Captain.

You obviously think it's wrong to rectify life-theft (or the closest thing, reversible organ theft), so I'll just leave you with that. I'm done with this.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

You obviously think it's wrong to rectify life-theft (or the closest thing, reversible organ theft), so I'll just leave you with that.

Let's talk about the child whose birth causes the death of his mother, Anwar.
He did not plan for his mother to die, he did not act to kill his mother, indeed, no action in his power at birth could have saved his mother.
English has a word for it - INNOCENT. The new-born is innocent, he has nothing to do with his mother's death.

In exactly the same way, Tuvix is innocent of the circumstances of his birth, of what you call 'organ theft'. Do you understand? Innocent as in NOT guilty.

A mother dying in the birth of the child? Sad, but it was her choice to have the child and live with the consequences (or not live, in this case). Tuvok and Neelix were never asked, nor had a choice.

Tuvok and Neelix weren't "sick" or "dying", they were trapped in a state of non-life (basically, a fate worse than death) and were TOTALLY retrievable. However, a third guy who was the result of their fate worse than death who was looking out for himself refused to do anything to help either of them.

You don't abandon two living, healthy people just because the guy who basically stole their lives said so.

Tuvok/Neelix were the exact equivalent of a sick person on the death bed - almost dead, but not quite there.
You don't want to acknowledge this because that would mean acknowledging that that Dr Mengele wannabe - Janeway - killed an INNOCENT person to harvest her organs and save two sick/dying persons.

Tuvok/Neelix were not responsible in any way for their affliction?
Well, most sick people are not responsible in any way for their disease/injury. This DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT THESE SICK PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO KILL INNOCENT SENTIENT BEINGS JUST SO THAT THEY GET CURED, Anwar.

And Tuvix refused to sacrifice himself in order to save Tuvok/Neelix? THAT IS HIS RIGHT AS A SENTIENT BEING, Anwar. HE HAS THE RIGHT TO LIVE AND DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH HIS OWN LIFE, Anwar.

You don't abandon two living, healthy people just because the guy who basically stole their lives said so. It's cruel, unfair to them, and generally a mockery of life. Janeway did the right thing as Captain.

You obviously think it's wrong to rectify life-theft (or the closest thing, reversible organ theft), so I'll just leave you with that. I'm done with this.

Welcome in Anwar's reverse world!

Tuvix, guilty of organ theft? Yeah, sure - sarcasm. I have just spelled out for you how ridiculous this idea is.

Healthy persons?
Sure - Tuvok/Neelix will become healthy again after they receive the organs stolen by Dr Mengele from an innocent, sentient being she killed.
You know who else would exhibit the exact same behaviour? Sick persons who receive transplanted organs.
Well, I guess Tuvok/Neelis would be healthy persons in your reverse world, Anwar.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Tuvok and Neelix weren't "sick" or "dying", they were trapped in a state of non-life (basically, a fate worse than death) and were TOTALLY retrievable.

How is their unique state of non-life "worse" than death?

Personally, I always thought, just to add a monkey wrench to the ending, they should have had a scene where Tuvok basically tells Captain Janeway that, although he personally is glad to be back, that he still thinks she violated Tuvix's rights.

For that matter, I've always been bothered that there was never any kind of coda at the end of the episode to answer some of the questions I had, like what Tuvok & Neelix thought about the whole experience, or whether either of them remembered anything about it. Might this odd circumstance of bodily cohabitation have somehow led to Neelix & Tuvok gaining a greater understanding of each other?

 

[lstyer]

No, it was a case of two sentient beings who, with no say in the matter, were fused into one being and thus trapped in said form with no way to voice their displeasure over the situation.

Tuvok and Neelix weren't "trapped" in Tuvix, they had ceased to exist while Tuvix existed. They had no displeasure to voice. There's no good real-world analogy that I know of because, in effect, she killed Tuvix to bring Tuvok and Neelix back from the dead.

An argument might be made that by cold logic two lives saved beats one life sacrificed, a sort of "needs of the many" writ small. I'm not really sure I buy that, though, because when the decision was made Tuvix existed, while Tuvok and Neelix didn't. I'm not sure two potential beings trump a life in being.

 

[Kai Winn]

You obviously think it's wrong to rectify life-theft (or the closest thing, reversible organ theft), so I'll just leave you with that.

Let's talk about the child whose birth causes the death of his mother, Anwar.
He did not plan for his mother to die, he did not act to kill his mother, indeed, no action in his power at birth could have saved his mother.
English has a word for it - INNOCENT. The new-born is innocent, he has nothing to do with his mother's death.

yes, it's born in the traditional way, ideally wanted, and loved, it's got parents, sibblings, becomes a parent himself, has friends, responsibilities, is vital for the existence for about 150 crewmembers in this particular case, is cared for and cares for more than his mere existence. which came into being by muzzling and cannibalizing two people of the sort i described, and some plant matter. good that janeway facing a dilemma made the right decision.
a mother knows the risks of childbirth, and if she does not want it, she can have an abortion. it's a mother's conscious choice to have a baby. after so many outrageous comparisons (mengele), we can at long last also compare the case of tuvok and neelix with the alledged case of the anti-choice crowd, protecting the lives of people who have no voice (yet).

 

[Nightdiamond]

In one episode, Data escapes from Fajo's men, and is confronted By Fajo himself.

Data picks up an illegal disrupter that Fajo had just used to kill Varria. Fajo is unarmed, it seems.

Fajo taunts Data and at one point, Data says, 'I can't let this go on', and points the disrupter and appears to pull the trigger, but he he is beamed away by Obrien to then Enterprise at just that moment.

Riker tells him that a disrupter was in the act of firing, and Data says perhaps something occurred during transport...

Did Data really attempt to fire before beam out? Did he make that story up (which seems so unlike Data) to Riker?

Or was he telling the truth?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

You obviously think it's wrong to rectify life-theft (or the closest thing, reversible organ theft), so I'll just leave you with that.

Let's talk about the child whose birth causes the death of his mother, Anwar.
He did not plan for his mother to die, he did not act to kill his mother, indeed, no action in his power at birth could have saved his mother.
English has a word for it - INNOCENT. The new-born is innocent, he has nothing to do with his mother's death.

yes, it's born in the traditional way, ideally wanted, and loved, it's got parents, sibblings, becomes a parent himself, has friends, responsibilities, is vital for the existence for about 150 crewmembers in this particular case, is cared for and cares for more than his mere existence. which came into being by muzzling and cannibalizing two people of the sort i described, and some plant matter. good that janeway facing a dilemma made the right decision.
a mother knows the risks of childbirth, and if she does not want it, she can have an abortion. it's a mother's conscious choice to have a baby. after so many outrageous comparisons (mengele), we can at long last also compare the case of tuvok and neelix with the alledged case of the anti-choice crowd, protecting the lives of people who have no voice (yet).

Kai Winn, I already refuted these arguments:

Tuvix:
"Let's talk about the child whose birth causes the death of his mother.
He did not plan for his mother to die, he did not act to kill his mother, indeed, no action in his power at birth could have saved his mother.
English has a word for it - INNOCENT. The new-born is innocent, he has nothing to do with his mother's death.
The child is INNOCENT regardless of whether his mother loved him or not, or wanted him or not, Kai Winn.

In exactly the same way, Tuvix is innocent of the circumstances of his birth, of what you call 'organ theft'. Do you understand? Innocent as in NOT guilty."

Tuvok/Neelix:
"Tuvok/Neelix were the exact equivalent of a sick person on the death bed - almost dead, but not quite there.

Tuvok/Neelix were not responsible in any way for their affliction?
Well, most sick people are not responsible in any way for their disease/injury. This DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT THESE SICK PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO KILL INNOCENT SENTIENT BEINGS JUST SO THAT THEY GET CURED.
These sick people don't have the RIGHT to kill sentient beings just so that they get better, regardless of whether they're part of a crew of 150 people or not. And no one else has the right to kill sentient beings in order to save these sick people"


"And Tuvix refused to sacrifice himself in order to save Tuvok/Neelix? THAT IS HIS RIGHT AS A SENTIENT BEING. HE HAS THE RIGHT TO LIVE AND DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH HIS OWN LIFE.
Tuvix has the RIGHT to decide to preserve his own life. You think that's egoist? It may be, but it's Tuvix's right to be egoist!
And make no mistake, Kai Winn, from this POV, you're just as egoist! If you want to be altruist, you can always put a bullet through your head and donate your organs - you'll save 3-4 people!"

PS: Janeway IS a Megele wannabe. She killed in cold blood an innocent being to chop her up for spare parts in order to save two of her friends.
You don't like it? That changes absolutely nothing! It certainly does NOT make Tuvix subhuman simply because he wasn't born in the standard way, as Janeway - and you, Kai Winn - seem to think.

 

[Kai Winn]

i don't accuse him of a crime. there are more legal concepts than committing and punishing an act of crime, like liability. there mere existence of something or someone can restrict or harm someone else, and must therefore not be allowed.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

i don't accuse him of a crime. there are more legal concepts than committing and punishing an act of crime, like liability. there mere existence of something or someone can restrict or harm someone else, and must therefore not be allowed.

And what legal concept, exactly, doesn't allow an innocent person to live because her organs can save 3-4 dying people?

Liability?
Firstly - NO ONE HAS THE LEGAL OBLIGATION TO SACRIFICE ONESELF FOR SOMEONE ELSE. You see, every sentient being has the inalienable right to live - and the few legal systems that still apply the death penalty apply it ONLY for VERY GRAVE GUILTY ACTS.

Secondly - not even liability is applicable to Tuvix. You see, liability implies 'evil act', which Tuvix didn't commit for the simple reason that he didn't exist when the act - the transporter accident - took place.



Tuvix was alive and Tuvok/Neelix practically dead. And no one was guilty, responsible for the circumstances that caused this.
Again, Kai Winn - you DON'T KILL in cold blood a person to save another.
Janeway blatantly broke Tuvix's right to live. She's a murderer, pure and simple.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

You obviously think it's wrong to rectify life-theft (or the closest thing, reversible organ theft), so I'll just leave you with that.

Let's talk about the child whose birth causes the death of his mother, Anwar.
He did not plan for his mother to die, he did not act to kill his mother, indeed, no action in his power at birth could have saved his mother.
English has a word for it - INNOCENT. The new-born is innocent, he has nothing to do with his mother's death.

Then again, if there was a choice between an operation to save the mother's life or the child's, the doctor usually picks the mother. In science fiction, it's difficult to find an exact comparison. I think that one fits Anwar's feelings better and, really, either could be used.

Welcome in Anwar's reverse world!

Tuvix, guilty of organ theft? Yeah, sure - sarcasm. I have just spelled out for you how ridiculous this idea is.

Healthy persons?
Sure - Tuvok/Neelix will become healthy again after they receive the organs stolen by Dr Mengele from an innocent, sentient being she killed.
You know who else would exhibit the exact same behaviour? Sick persons who receive transplanted organs.
Well, I guess Tuvok/Neelis would be healthy persons in your reverse world, Anwar.

Alright, now I have to put my moderator hat on. Please try and be a little more civil. Certainly typing in caps, laughing, and excessive uses of sarcasm aren't helping to keep a civil debate and there's no reason we can't discuss actions in a tv show dispassionately.