Most morally questionable act by a protagonist?

[ProtoAvatar]

You obviously think it's wrong to rectify life-theft (or the closest thing, reversible organ theft), so I'll just leave you with that.

Let's talk about the child whose birth causes the death of his mother, Anwar.
He did not plan for his mother to die, he did not act to kill his mother, indeed, no action in his power at birth could have saved his mother.
English has a word for it - INNOCENT. The new-born is innocent, he has nothing to do with his mother's death.

Then again, if there was a choice between an operation to save the mother's life or the child's, the doctor usually picks the mother. In science fiction, it's difficult to find an exact comparison. I think that one fits Anwar's feelings better and, really, either could be used.

Yes, the doctor chooses to save the mother.
Why?
Because the mother is alive, and the child would need her sacrifice to become/remain alive.
The person who is alive NOW has priority. The doctor doesn't sacrifice the life of a sentient being to save another.

And Tuvix WAS alive. Tuvok/Neelix, not so much (the closest analogy, as I said, is a person on her death bed) - they would need Tuvix's sacrifice to become alive again.
Any doctor would choose Tuvix - he's alive NOW.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

(Without having seen the episode in some years, so someone correct me if I miss something big)

Tuvix wasn't 'alive'. He was the result of two living beings being fused together, and his unique personality was the fusion of Tuvok and Nelix's personalities.

It's like a Borg drone. No one's saying Janeway was wrong to rescue Seven of Nine from the Collective, despite how Seven of Nine clearly did not want to be rescued while she was still a drone. Tuvix didn't want to be saved while he felt like a unique being, but he wasn't. He was two people caught in a transporter accident with their personalities and whatnot interacting in unforeseeable ways, not a real person nor alive in any meaningful sense.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

(Without having seen the episode in some years, so someone correct me if I miss something big)

Tuvix wasn't 'alive'. He was the result of two living beings being fused together, and his unique personality was the fusion of Tuvok and Nelix's personalities.

Actually, the episode went to great lengts to show/explain that Tuvix was not only alive (that's ridiculously obvious) but his own person, a sentient intelligent being separate from Tuvok or Neelix.

Saying Tuvix is 'not alive', is subhuman due to the circumstances of his birth or some other factor...well, let's just say many used this excuse to justify atrocities throughout history.

 

[plynch]

It wasn'y killing Tuvix that was the morally reprehensible act. It was RESTORING NEELIX. And any other time in that whole series he was ever saved from death. Unspeakable horror! Calumny! Shame!

 

[Elias Vaughn]

(Without having seen the episode in some years, so someone correct me if I miss something big)

Tuvix wasn't 'alive'. He was the result of two living beings being fused together, and his unique personality was the fusion of Tuvok and Nelix's personalities.

Actually, the episode went to great lengts to show/explain that Tuvix was not only alive (that's ridiculously obvious) but his own person, a sentient intelligent being separate from Tuvok or Neelix.

After reading the Memory Alpha article on Tuvix, I can't see anything that would prove definitively he's a unique individual and not just a melding of two people.

I suppose you could say that he said so and he'd know better, but then we're back to my Borg drone analogy. Tuvix wasn't a person, he was two people melded together who thought they were a single person, maybe even felt like they were. But they weren't. They were Tuvok and Neelix.

Saying Tuvix is 'not alive', is subhuman due to the circumstances of his birth or some other factor...well, let's just say many used this excuse to justify atrocities throughout history.

I'm not aware of many transporter accidents that occurred throughout history, so I'll just defer to you on that one.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

(Without having seen the episode in some years, so someone correct me if I miss something big)

Tuvix wasn't 'alive'. He was the result of two living beings being fused together, and his unique personality was the fusion of Tuvok and Nelix's personalities.

Actually, the episode went to great lengts to show/explain that Tuvix was not only alive (that's ridiculously obvious) but his own person, a sentient intelligent being separate from Tuvok or Neelix.

After reading the Memory Alpha article on Tuvix, I can't see anything that would prove definitively he's a unique individual and not just a melding of two people.

I suppose you could say that he said so and he'd know better, but then we're back to my Borg drone analogy. Tuvix wasn't a person, he was two people melded together who thought they were a single person, maybe even felt like they were. But they weren't. They were Tuvok and Neelix.

Watch the episode - not only is Tuvix's behaviour that of an intelligent sentient being, the scenarists made - Chakotay, I think - spell it out for everyone: Tuvix was a sentient being in its own right, different from Tuvok/Neelix.

And what's the nonsense about the borg? The borg IS a single consciousness. It's not a zillion separate drones thinking they're one.

Saying Tuvix is 'not alive', is subhuman due to the circumstances of his birth or some other factor...well, let's just say many used this excuse to justify atrocities throughout history.

I'm not aware of many transporter accidents that occurred throughout history, so I'll just defer to you on that one.

So, Tuvix is subhuman because he wasn't born in the standard way - and therefore, it's OK to kill him? REALLY?
You're just making my point, Elias Vaughn.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

After reading the Memory Alpha article on Tuvix, I can't see anything that would prove definitively he's a unique individual and not just a melding of two people.

He was a unique individual (whatever the importance of that is) because there was only one of him. His origins as a melding of two individuals are irrelevant to that.

I suppose you could say that he said so and he'd know better, but then we're back to my Borg drone analogy. Tuvix wasn't a person, he was two people melded together who thought they were a single person, maybe even felt like they were. But they weren't. They were Tuvok and Neelix.

But they were a single person. There was only one person standing there - Tuvok and Neelix no longer existed. If there's one body and one consciousness I struggle to understand how you can consider it to be more than one person.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

Watch the episode - not only is Tuvix's behaviour that of an intelligent sentient being,

Well, he was made of two of them, so...

the scenarists made - Chakotay, I think - spell it out for everyone: Tuvix was a sentient being in its own right, different from Tuvok/Neelix.

He *was* Tuvok and Neelix.

If he wasn't, then how did they come back at all? Tuvix is *demonstratively* Tuvok and Neelix in one body, not something separate.

And what's the nonsense about the borg? The borg IS a single consciousness. It's not a zillion separate drones thinking they're one.

Right.

Remember when they first captured Seven of Nine and deBorged her? She was vehemently against that idea. Was the Voyager crew wrong to unassimilate Seven when she so clearly didn't want to be at the time?

Another analogy - Verad Dax. Trill symbiosis melds the personalities of symbiont and host, so much so that Verad was talking to Benjamin like a friend while joined.

Verad Dax may have stolen the symbiont, but the joinining that was Verad Dax was a unique individual, the sum of his parts.

Were they wrong to take Dax back, even to save Jadzia's life? She was dying, but Verad Dax was effectively killed to save Jadzia's life.

I think most people would agree that it was right to save Jadzia at the expense of Verad Dax. Same deal here.

Saying Tuvix is 'not alive', is subhuman due to the circumstances of his birth or some other factor...well, let's just say many used this excuse to justify atrocities throughout history.

I'm not aware of many transporter accidents that occurred throughout history, so I'll just defer to you on that one.

So, Tuvix is subhuman because he wasn't born in the standard way - and therefore, it's OK to kill him? REALLY?
You're just making my point, Elias Vaughn.

Um. No.

I'm not saying he was *subhuman*. I'm saying he was *two people*. Two people who, when separated, clearly didn't fault anyone for separating them.

Chakotay can think whatever he wants, but Tuvix was Tuvok and Neelix, the same way that Evil Kirk and Spineless Kirk from 'The Enemy Within' were both Kirk.

I suppose you could say that he said so and he'd know better, but then we're back to my Borg drone analogy. Tuvix wasn't a person, he was two people melded together who thought they were a single person, maybe even felt like they were. But they weren't. They were Tuvok and Neelix.

But they were a single person. There was only one person standing there - Tuvok and Neelix no longer existed. If there's one body and one consciousness I struggle to understand how you can consider it to be more than one person.

Because Tuvix *was* more than one person.

Yes, they shared a body. Again, Trill symbiosis is a good demonstration of this. It's canon that two beings can share one body. That's what happened here.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

@Elias Vaughn

You don't seem to want to understand:
Tuvix was a being separate from Tuvok/Neelix. Different consciousness from Tuvok/Neelix, different thoughts from Tuvok/Neelix.

Chakotay said about him that 'the sum is greater than the parts'.
He was his own person, and Tuvok/Neelix were his parents - as stated in the episode.

Again, Trill symbiosis is a good demonstration of this. It's canon that two beings can share one body. That's what happened here.

Wrong, Elias Vaughn. A trill and a symbiont form a different third being - as explained in excruciating detail in DS9 Season 1. It's cannon that two merged beings form a third being, different from each of them.

Chakotay can think whatever he wants, but Tuvix was Tuvok and Neelix, the same way that Evil Kirk and Spineless Kirk from 'The Enemy Within' were both Kirk.

Incorrect, Elias Vaughn.
You can say whatever you want - you won't change the facts presented in the episode.
Tuvix was his own person, different from Tuvok/Neelix.


About 7 of 9 - Voyager's crew didn't kill 7 of 9 without her consent, just waited until she was thinking clearly to know what she wants.
Tuvix was thinking clearly when he made the decision to live - a decision Janeway ignored, killing him in cold blood.

About Verad - he was guilty of stealing dax; and the removal of dax from Verad DID NOT KILL Verad.
Tuvix was innocent of the circumstances of his birth. Janeway killed him.

So, Tuvix is subhuman because he wasn't born in the standard way - and therefore, it's OK to kill him? REALLY?
You're just making my point, Elias Vaughn.

Um. No.

I'm not saying he was *subhuman*. I'm saying he was *two people*. Two people who, when separated, clearly didn't fault anyone for separating them.

You deny that Tuvix is a sentient being of his own, different from Tuvok/Neelix, so that you can excuse killing him.
You ARE saying that Tuvix is subhuman, Elias Vaughn.

Tuvok/Neelix didn't blame anyone for separating them? OF COURSE NOT! They are not Tuvix. Janeway already killed Tuvix.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

@Elias Vaughn

You don't seem to want to understand:
Tuvix was a being separate from Tuvok/Neelix. Different consciousness from Tuvok/Neelix, different thoughts from Tuvok/Neelix.

Not understanding is not the same as disagreeing.

I simply disagree. *shrug*

Chakotay said about him that 'the sum is greater than the parts'.

I realize that the default position is believing what characters say... but Chakotay had no basis with which to make this claim and be sure of it. He worked with Tuvix for a month, so it probably felt a lot like Tuvix was his own person and more than just Tuvok+Neelix, but he wasn't.

Please, tell me how one quantifies sentience. How does one quantify that something is greater than the sum of its parts? What factual basis did Chakotay have for making the claim?

He was his own person, and Tuvok/Neelix were his parents - as stated in the episode.

It was stated he *thought* of Tuvok and Neelix as his parents. Slight difference.

Again, Trill symbiosis is a good demonstration of this. It's canon that two beings can share one body. That's what happened here.

Wrong, Elias Vaughn. A trill and a symbiont form a different third being - as explained in excruciating detail in DS9 Season 1. It's cannon that two merged beings form a third being, different from each of them.

Then you disagree with the decision to kill Verad Dax to save Jadzia. Fair enough.

Chakotay can think whatever he wants, but Tuvix was Tuvok and Neelix, the same way that Evil Kirk and Spineless Kirk from 'The Enemy Within' were both Kirk.

Incorrect, Elias Vaughn.
You can say whatever you want - you won't change the facts presented in the episode.

Please, point out how that analogy was incorrect. Just saying I'm wrong without backing yourself up isn't much of a debate strategy.

About the borg - they were guilty of assimilating 7 of 9. And Voyager's crew didn't kill her without her consent, just waited until she was thinking clearly to know what she wants.

ThenI claim that we had to wait until Tuvok and Neelix were thinking clearly to know what they really wanted. Same thing.

Tuvix was innocent of the circumstances of his birth. And he was thinking clearly when he made the decision to live.

Sure seemed like he was, huh? But I still disagree.

About Verad - he was guilty of stealing dax; and the removal of dax from Verad DID NOT KILL Verad.

It didn't kill Verad, but according to your logic, it killedthe unique being namedVerad Dax. I'm drawing a distinction here between simply Verad and Verad Dax.

Was saving Jadzia worth killing the unique being that was Verad Dax, not simply Verad anymore?

Tuvix was innocent of the circumstances of his birth. Janewy killed him.

No. Janeway saved two crewmembers. But agree to disagree, I guess.

So, Tuvix is subhuman because he wasn't born in the standard way - and therefore, it's OK to kill him? REALLY?
You're just making my point, Elias Vaughn.

Um. No.

I'm not saying he was *subhuman*. I'm saying he was *two people*. Two people who, when separated, clearly didn't fault anyone for separating them.

You deny that Tuvix is a sentient being of his own, different from Tuvok/Neelix, so that you can excuse killing him.
You ARE saying that Tuvix is subhuman, Elias Vaughn.

Tuvok/Neelix didn't blame anyone for separating them? OF COURSE NOT! They are not Tuvix. Janeway already killed Tuvix.

No. It's not killing Tuvix because he still lives as Tuvok and Neelix. Because Tuvix *was* Tuvok and Neelix.

Tuvix wasn't his own person. He was a melding of two different people.

 

[lstyer]

He *was* Tuvok and Neelix.

If he wasn't, then how did they come back at all?

I'm not sure that the transporter rules in play in the episode really speak to Tuvix's identity and "beinghood."

Remember when they first captured Seven of Nine and deBorged her? She was vehemently against that idea. Was the Voyager crew wrong to unassimilate Seven when she so clearly didn't want to be at the time?

I'd say that, yes, it was wrong.

Were they wrong to take Dax back, even to save Jadzia's life? She was dying, but Verad Dax was effectively killed to save Jadzia's life.

I'm not sure it's exactly analogous. If I remember correctly, Jadzia was still alive, and the Verad part of Verad Dax was culpable for the theft of Dax and creation of Verad Dax. Tuvix was not culpable for his own creation and the death of Tuvok and Neelix.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

He *was* Tuvok and Neelix.

If he wasn't, then how did they come back at all?

I'm not sure that the transporter rules in play in the episode really speak to Tuvix's identity and "beinghood."

How wouldn't they?

Remember when they first captured Seven of Nine and deBorged her? She was vehemently against that idea. Was the Voyager crew wrong to unassimilate Seven when she so clearly didn't want to be at the time?

I'd say that, yes, it was wrong.

Honestly, I can respect that, even if I personally disagree. That you believe it was wrong strikes me as more consistent thought.

Were they wrong to take Dax back, even to save Jadzia's life? She was dying, but Verad Dax was effectively killed to save Jadzia's life.

I'm not sure it's exactly analogous. If I remember correctly, Jadzia was still alive, and the Verad part of Verad Dax was culpable for the theft of Dax and creation of Verad Dax. Tuvix was not culpable for his own creation and the death of Tuvok and Neelix.

There was no Verad when he was joined, only the unique being called Verad Dax. If tuvok and Neelix are considered dead when Tuvix lives, then Verad should be considered dead when Verad Dax lives, and vice versa.

 

[lstyer]

About Verad - he was guilty of stealing dax; and the removal of dax from Verad DID NOT KILL Verad.

But it did kill Verad Dax, leaving Verad and Jadzia Dax, just as splitting Tuvix killed him, leaving Neelix and Tuvok. I think the significant difference here is Verad's culpability versus Tuvix's innocence.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

But if Verad was dead, why would his culpability matter? Would you really kill an innocent to bring a criminal back from the dead just so you can put them in prison?

 

[lstyer]

How wouldn't they?

Because the transporter rules seem to vary depending on the need of the plot, while "beinghood" seems a little more constant.

If Tuvix was made up of both Neelix's matter and Tuvok's, it seems like he should have been bigger than he was. If not, where did the extra matter go?

If Thomas Riker and Will Riker came from the same transport, where did the extra matter come from?

Both of the same questions with Good Kirk/Bad Kirk.

The transporter makes no sense.

There was no Verad when he was joined, only the unique being called Verad Dax.

That's not exactly how I understand Trill joining, but I'm not an expert.

If tuvok and Neelix are considered dead when Tuvix lives, then Verad should be considered dead when Verad Dax lives, and vice versa.

Even if I buy that, the joined being included the culpable being. Tuvix had no culpability at all.

It's less a question of whether one was right and the other wrong. I think both are wrong, but one is perhaps justifiable.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

The transporter makes no sense.

This is true.

If tuvok and Neelix are considered dead when Tuvix lives, then Verad should be considered dead when Verad Dax lives, and vice versa.

Even if I buy that, the joined being included the culpable being. Tuvix had no culpability at all.

Well, no. If you buy that (I see them as analagous, at any rate), then the culpable being was dead, and Verad Dax was killed to bring the criminal back to life and to save Jadzia's.

 

[lstyer]

But if Verad was dead, why would his culpability matter? Would you really kill an innocent to bring a criminal back from the dead just so you can put them in prison?

I don't buy that, based on my understanding of how Trill joining works, that Verad Dax was an innocent.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

Why wouldn't he be? Verad Dax didn't exist until after the crime was committed.

Sure, he didn't give the symbiont back, but then he's just exercising the same will to live that Tuvix did.

 

[lstyer]

Why wouldn't he be? Verad Dax didn't exist until after the crime was committed.

My understanding of Trill joining is that the existing personalities at least sort of remain.

My understanding of Tuvix was more of a blend.

This might be an incorrect understanding.

 

[Lily_Teller]

I have to go with a tie between not attempting to eliminate the borg when they had the chance (I, Borg), and the utter refusal to intervene in Homeward. If I really wanted to rationalize it (I don't), I could chalk the borg thing up to PTSD on Picard's part, but there was no excuse for not intervening in Homeward.

Ya' know, those starving kids in third world countries don't have warp capabilities either... Wouldn't the Prime Directive tell us to shrug, give a pithy speech and leave them to die? I mean, we wouldn't want to corrupt them with our High Fructose Corn Syrup. They might get fat...