A different ending to Sacrifice of Angels

[Joe Washington]

Sacrifice to Angels ends with the Defiant being too late to stop the Dominion reinforcements from coming through the wormhole.

Now it's up to you guys to decide where to take things from here.

 

[Baconnaise]

Well by the show itself if that was what would be changed then everyone in the alpha quadrant would lose then.

 

[StarryEyed]

Rom should have disabled the station's weapons before they could detonate the minefield.

 

[Myasishchev]

Earth falls, the Federation is nearly destroyed by the Dominion, but Dominion has to withdraw anyway because the Federation holds the cure to the Founder plague.

 

[broberfett]

The Dominion fleet emerges from the wormhole and they attack. The Defiant tries to fight, but must escape or die. The majority of the Fed fleet is destroyed and several Federation sectors fall. The Dominion fleet conquers Bajor completely. They try to fight back with terrorist attacks, but the Dominion doesn't care about politics and exterminates the majority of the population.

The Dominion keeps a presence in the Alpha quadrant and no wormhole aliens interfere at all.

 

[StarryEyed]

Earth falls, the Federation is nearly destroyed by the Dominion, but Dominion has to withdraw anyway because the Federation holds the cure to the Founder plague.

That's possible. The war was over before it even officially began.

 

[DevilEyes]

Earth falls, the Federation is nearly destroyed by the Dominion, but Dominion has to withdraw anyway because the Federation holds the cure to the Founder plague.

...but the Founders don't trust the Federation, and Female Founder decides to unleash the Jem'Hadar on the solids, who have just proven that they were just as evil and bent on destroying the Founders as they've always said they were.

With the Founders ill of the plague and many of them dead, most of the Jem'Hadar continue with their campaign of destruction and genocide, determined to carry out their duty and the orders of their gods even if those gods are dead or incapacitated.

Earth falls, the Federation is nearly destroyed by the Dominion, but Dominion has to withdraw anyway because the Federation holds the cure to the Founder plague.

That's possible. The war was over before it even officially began.

How so?

 

[StarryEyed]

Earth falls, the Federation is nearly destroyed by the Dominion, but Dominion has to withdraw anyway because the Federation holds the cure to the Founder plague.

...but the Founders don't trust the Federation, and Female Founder decides to unleash the Jem'Hadar on the solids, who have just proven that they were just as evil and bent on destroying the Founders as they've always said they were.

With the Founders ill of the plague and many of them dead, most of the Jem'Hadar continue with their campaign of destruction and genocide, determined to carry out their duty and the orders of their gods even if those gods are dead or incapacitated.

Earth falls, the Federation is nearly destroyed by the Dominion, but Dominion has to withdraw anyway because the Federation holds the cure to the Founder plague.

That's possible. The war was over before it even officially began.

How so?

Uhmmm, because the Founders were already infected with a disease they couldn't cure? Their superior military might was all for naught. They were faced with the prospect of withdrawing from the Alpha Quadrant or being extinguished as a race.

 

[DevilEyes]

Uhmmm, because the Founders were already infected with a disease they couldn't cure? Their superior military might was all for naught. They were faced with the prospect of withdrawing from the Alpha Quadrant or being extinguished as a race.

Uhmmmm, see my post above.

 

[StarryEyed]

Uhmmm, because the Founders were already infected with a disease they couldn't cure? Their superior military might was all for naught. They were faced with the prospect of withdrawing from the Alpha Quadrant or being extinguished as a race.

Uhmmmm, see my post above.

Don't see any contradiction. It doesn't matter if the Founders trust the "solids" or not. They are dead if they don't accept their terms. Founders lose, one way or another. The best they can achieve is elimination of a handful of solid races while their own race dies. Total loss from their point of view.

 

[DevilEyes]

Uhmmm, because the Founders were already infected with a disease they couldn't cure? Their superior military might was all for naught. They were faced with the prospect of withdrawing from the Alpha Quadrant or being extinguished as a race.

Uhmmmm, see my post above.

Don't see any contradiction. It doesn't matter if the Founders trust the "solids" or not. They are dead if they don't accept their terms. Founders lose, one way or another. The best they can achieve is elimination of a handful of solid races while their own race dies. Total loss from their point of view.

It matters very much whether they trust them. They wouldn't trust them to accept the cure, let alone to surrender in order to be given a cure. (Which may be fake, for all they know.) And they might lose by getting ill and dying, but that doesn't mean that the Federation and its allies would win, especially if angry Founders start an even more aggressive campaign, and if the Jem'Hadar continue what they've started.

Or, an even better scenario: the Founders pretend to surrender, are given a cure... and what's stopping them from launching another all-out attack?

Even under the assumption that the Alpha Quadrant forces are too weak to do that at that point - although I don't believe that the Dominion Alpha Quadrant forces would surrender completely before they got a cure that might be fake anyway - the Dominion is huge and includes many worlds and many more forces that can come out of the Gamma Quadrant.

 

[StarryEyed]

Uhmmmm, see my post above.

Don't see any contradiction. It doesn't matter if the Founders trust the "solids" or not. They are dead if they don't accept their terms. Founders lose, one way or another. The best they can achieve is elimination of a handful of solid races while their own race dies. Total loss from their point of view.

It matters very much whether they trust them. They wouldn't trust them to accept the cure, let alone to surrender in order to be given a cure. (Which may be fake, for all they know.) And they might lose by getting ill and dying, but that doesn't mean that the Federation and its allies would win, especially if angry Founders start an even more aggressive campaign, and if the Jem'Hadar continue what they've started.

Or, an even better scenario: the Founders pretend to surrender, are given a cure... and what's stopping them from launching another all-out attack?

Even under the assumption that the Alpha Quadrant forces are too weak to do that at that point - although I don't believe that the Dominion Alpha Quadrant forces would surrender completely before they got a cure that might be fake anyway - the Dominion is huge and includes many worlds and many more forces that can come out of the Gamma Quadrant.

It doesn't matter to the Founders whether they believe the solids are trustworthy or not. They are stricken with a terminal illness they have no ability to cure. If they choose to not deal with the solids, the best they can achieve is going out with a blaze of glory, taking out as many solids with them as they can. But solids will survive them.

Everything we know about the Founders tells us that that would not be palatable to them. The Jem' Hadar and the Vorta are mere servants to them - certainly not a surviving legacy. The extinguishing of the Founder race would be a victory for the solids in the eyes of the Founders. The only possible way to avoid this is to deal with them,

 

[Jono]

The Dominion brings order to the Alpha Quadrant leading to a much better future for all.

 

[DevilEyes]

Don't see any contradiction. It doesn't matter if the Founders trust the "solids" or not. They are dead if they don't accept their terms. Founders lose, one way or another. The best they can achieve is elimination of a handful of solid races while their own race dies. Total loss from their point of view.

It matters very much whether they trust them. They wouldn't trust them to accept the cure, let alone to surrender in order to be given a cure. (Which may be fake, for all they know.) And they might lose by getting ill and dying, but that doesn't mean that the Federation and its allies would win, especially if angry Founders start an even more aggressive campaign, and if the Jem'Hadar continue what they've started.

Or, an even better scenario: the Founders pretend to surrender, are given a cure... and what's stopping them from launching another all-out attack?

Even under the assumption that the Alpha Quadrant forces are too weak to do that at that point - although I don't believe that the Dominion Alpha Quadrant forces would surrender completely before they got a cure that might be fake anyway - the Dominion is huge and includes many worlds and many more forces that can come out of the Gamma Quadrant.

It doesn't matter to the Founders whether they believe the solids are trustworthy or not. They are stricken with a terminal illness they have no ability to cure. If they choose to not deal with the solids, the best they can achieve is going out with a blaze of glory, taking out as many solids with them as they can. But solids will survive them.

Your reasoning is... very disturbing.

A politician from 1990s once said that there were 12 millions of her people, and even if 6 million perished, there will still be 6 million left to reap the fruits of struggle (unlike their "enemies", who were a few million less numerous). That (former) politician ended up being convicted of genocide and war crimes, and that quote has often been cited as an example of how extreme her views were at the time.

 

[AJBryant]

=A politician from 1990s once said that there were 12 millions of her people, and even if 6 million perished, there will still be 6 million left to reap the fruits of struggle (unlike their "enemies", who were a few million less numerous). That (former) politician ended up being convicted of genocide and war crimes, and that quote has often been cited as an example of how extreme her views were at the time.

I should probably know this, but it's not clicking.

Who was this?

 

[DevilEyes]

=A politician from 1990s once said that there were 12 millions of her people, and even if 6 million perished, there will still be 6 million left to reap the fruits of struggle (unlike their "enemies", who were a few million less numerous). That (former) politician ended up being convicted of genocide and war crimes, and that quote has often been cited as an example of how extreme her views were at the time.

I should probably know this, but it's not clicking.

Who was this?

Biljana Plavšić

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1108604.stm

 

[Withers]

Alright, first of all, this has always kind of bothered me; when Rom and Kira show up in the main computer core, Rom sets about his task like he's repairing a replicator. It wasn't even a few hours previous that Kira was talking about planting a bomb. Now, while I get that there wouldn't have been time to construct a bomb after they escaped from the holding cells, it doesn't make sense to me that she wouldn't be like "Let's just smash up/shoot up the place! This is important!" Their decision to go about taking the Station off line seemed like they were more worried about fixing it later and it damn near cost the AQ powers the war.

Secondly; weren't there at least a handful of well armed Dominion ships in the immediate vicinity of the station anyway? I know there was at least one war ship and at least a handful of their attack ships. So what good would taking the weapons off line really do? C'mon... think.

But, okay, Defiant arrives too late? Irrelevant. Sisko would have charged head long into a fight that would have gotten him killed, whether inside the Wormhole or not, and the Prophets would have sensed that in the same fashion they did. If the fleet had already been inside the Alpha Quadrant when they "summoned" Sisko to the celestial temple his request might have been different;

Rather than "Stop those ships," it might have been "Eliminate the Dominion in the Alpha Quadrant!" Since it was a one time favor anyway and it'd just be easier to ask for them all wiped out as opposed to the 2800 that just arrived, why not? Had he arrived late the war might have ended then and there without so much a single life lost. That's, ya know, really stretching it but the pieces fit.

Either way the Prophets weren't going to let Sisko die and he made it very apparent he was going to do everything in his power to do his duty up to and including sacrificing his life. When faced with losing Sisko or wiping out some Dominion ships (which was always going to be their ultimatum) the Prophets were always going to choose to help Sisko (and subsequently almost- Bajor.)

-Withers-​

 

[neozeks]

Secondly; weren't there at least a handful of well armed Dominion ships in the immediate vicinity of the station anyway? I know there was at least one war ship and at least a handful of their attack ships. So what good would taking the weapons off line really do? C'mon... think.

I haven't seen the episode in a long time, but weren't the station's weapons specifically adjusted to detonate the minefield? That's what they were trying to stop. I don't think other ships could detonate the minefield.

But, okay, Defiant arrives too late? Irrelevant. Sisko would have charged head long into a fight that would have gotten him killed, whether inside the Wormhole or not, and the Prophets would have sensed that in the same fashion they did. If the fleet had already been inside the Alpha Quadrant when they "summoned" Sisko to the celestial temple his request might have been different;

Rather than "Stop those ships," it might have been "Eliminate the Dominion in the Alpha Quadrant!" Since it was a one time favor anyway and it'd just be easier to ask for them all wiped out as opposed to the 2800 that just arrived, why not? Had he arrived late the war might have ended then and there without so much a single life lost. That's, ya know, really stretching it but the pieces fit.

I was always under the impression that the Prophets' powers outside the wormhole were very limited ie. possesing people or sending them visions. They couldn't destroy the Dominion ships outside the wormhole.

 

[Withers]

I haven't seen the episode in a long time, but weren't the station's weapons specifically adjusted to detonate the minefield? That's what they were trying to stop. I don't think other ships could detonate the minefield.

They turned the stations deflector into an anti-graviton beam in order to disable the replicator units within the mines. That didn't disarm them or detonate them. It just kept them from being able to replicate a replacement. After that was done all they needed were conventional weapons to detonate the minefield. Rom and Kira went for the weapons as an afterthought when Rom realized there wasn't going to be enough time to take the entire station off line.

I was always under the impression that the Prophets' powers outside the wormhole were very limited ie. possesing people or sending them visions. They couldn't destroy the Dominion ships outside the wormhole.

The only real example we have of them doing anything aside possessing people and sending them visions is the destruction of the fleet within the wormhole. That doesn't lend itself, one way or the other, to them being capable of such acts other places. Since they could summon people to the Celestial Temple, why not ships? I mean it's all completely speculative but I can think of no reason why they absolutely couldn't do anything outside the wormhole.

-Withers-​

 

[neozeks]

They turned the stations deflector into an anti-graviton beam in order to disable the replicator units within the mines. That didn't disarm them or detonate them. It just kept them from being able to replicate a replacement. After that was done all they needed were conventional weapons to detonate the minefield. Rom and Kira went for the weapons as an afterthought when Rom realized there wasn't going to be enough time to take the entire station off line.

Ah, I had forgotten the details. Well, here are the relevant quotes:

KIRA (thinking fast)Then concentrate on cutting off the power to the station's weapons array. Without weapons they won't be able to detonate the minefield.

ROM (hope renewed) Not for a while anyway.

I'd say they were grasping for straws, trying to buy at least a few minutes. Maybe the ships were sent to intercept the Defiant? Or sweeping the minefield required a special wide setting and it would take at least some time to adapt the ship weapons - at least Rom has no illusions that they were only delaying the detonation for 'a while' (yeah, I'm also grasping at straws here...)

The only real example we have of them doing anything aside possessing people and sending them visions is the destruction of the fleet within the wormhole. That doesn't lend itself, one way or the other, to them being capable of such acts other places. Since they could summon people to the Celestial Temple, why not ships? I mean it's all completely speculative but I can think of no reason why they absolutely couldn't do anything outside the wormhole.

Well, we also have them sending the poet-fake-Emissary into the future (and then back to the past) in 'Accesssion' as well as changing Zek's personality in one of the Ferengi episodes (described by them as 'restoring him to an earlier, less adversarial state of existence...). I thus always assumed their major power was manipulating time inside the wormhole and only inside the wormhole, since it was an artificial construct, probably 'built' by the Prophets themselves. Who knows, maybe they simply froze the Dominion fleet somewhere in time, or sent them to the end of the universe or something. And if they could act outside the wormhole why bother with possesing people and sending them the Orbs?

Also, isn't 'summoning' only a 'spiritual' connection with specific people (established through a previous Orb experience)? Well, aside from them 'transporting' Sisko to their domain while he was falling down the Fire Caves - but then, the Caves themselves are hardly a normal place.