Seven of Nine saved the show

[exodus]

IMHO, as long as folks keep comparing and contrasting Voy. to DS9, then Voy. will never be able to shine/stand out on the qualities and elements of the show that did make it worth while. Only thing is, I'm afraid the issue then would have been: "Voy. is too much like DS9 and nothing is original about it."

Does anybody remember when folks used to say DS9 was poor follow up to TNG because it was boring due to them not having a ship and going anywhere?

...or how DS9 is anti-Trek because it's not about exploring space? (How often did the Defiant actually leave Bajorian/Cardassian space during DS9's run?)

Tom Paris going from a convict that cared about nobody but himself and would never amount to anything, to family man that designed a brand new type of shuttle that was a benefit to everybody and probably cement himself in Starfleet history for ship design, shows tremendous growth as a person/character.

 

[Guy Gardener]

IMHO, as long as folks keep comparing and contrasting Voy. to DS9, then Voy. will never be able to shine/stand out on the qualities and elements of the show that did make it worth while. Only thing is, I'm afraid the issue then would have been: "Voy. is too much like DS9 and nothing is original about it."

Maybe to make Voyager shine, then we should compare it to Andromeda? in the final episode of Andromeda they went back to earth and blew it up... And then as an afterthought they unlocked the gates to Terranvedra(?) and Hercules got to say "I'm home, I'm finally home." despite that it had been three years since kev bemoaned how he missed the space horsies who ruled the empire man lived in 2 centuries earlier.

Although. Stargate Universe IS Voyager's original pitch.

Does anybody remember when folks used to say DS9 was poor follow up to TNG because it was boring due to them not having a ship and going anywhere?

I hate those monkeys. That's the sort of thinking that had the network replace Duke boys in the Dukes of Hazard for a season in so as long as they kept the same car because everyone watched the show for the car.

Tom Paris going from a convict that cared about nobody but himself and would never amount to anything, to family man that designed a brand new type of shuttle that was a benefit to everybody and probably cement himself in Starfleet history for ship design, shows tremendous growth as a person/character.

Ah. Certainly, but it was immediate.

We never got to see surly bastard Tom in it for himself screwing anyone over. He'd become a superpatriot as noble and pastywilled to only do good as Geordi or Wesley, an upstanding character by the end of the pilot. However hitting on B'Elanna while dying, admitting that their feelings were real when he tried to give her an out the next episode.... Then almost nothing for three years, in fact when the quicksilver B'lanna and Tom got married in the teaser for that episode, I was shocked to say that I had forgotten that they were meaningful to each other, and then there was Drive where they stopped having a stupid blockbuster adventure to talk about their feelings and the evolution of their relationship, it was gangbusters but hardly gradual or incremental.

Even at his worst Tom wasn't that bad.

Spoiled brat with daddy issues?

A quarter of the crew were treasonous massmurdering terrorists.

B'Elanna tried to blow up a populated planet, missed and almost blew up another populated planet. Surely, building her up into a shinning noble character is a greater more impressive journey than Tom amending his pissy little ways?

 

[Warp Coil]

IMHO, as long as folks keep comparing and contrasting Voy. to DS9, then Voy. will never be able to shine/stand out on the qualities and elements of the show that did make it worth while.

Unfortunately, I see very little that VOY had to make it shine at all. It was a decent premise with a good roster of characters, but the execution was awful. The show should have been better than it was. The characters - each and every one of them - should have been rich, well-rounded, fully-developed people. But they weren't. Janeway, Seven and The Doctor received the most attention (with B'elanna coming in behind them a bit). Seven and The Doctor were great characters, and it's nice that they got the attention that they deserved, but it was at the cost of the development of everyone else.

I didn't mean to turn this thread into a DS9 comparison. And the thread certainly doesn't need to turn into another Kes vs. Seven debate, either. The OP asked if Seven saved the series? The answer seems to point to "no". VOY had a lot of problems, and the introduction of one character didn't magically solve them.

 

[exodus]

IMHO, as long as folks keep comparing and contrasting Voy. to DS9, then Voy. will never be able to shine/stand out on the qualities and elements of the show that did make it worth while.

Unfortunately, I see very little that VOY had to make it shine at all. It was a decent premise with a good roster of characters, but the execution was awful. The show should have been better than it was. The characters - each and every one of them - should have been rich, well-rounded, fully-developed people. But they weren't. Janeway, Seven and The Doctor received the most attention (with B'elanna coming in behind them a bit). Seven and The Doctor were great characters, and it's nice that they got the attention that they deserved, but it was at the cost of the development of everyone else.

I didn't mean to turn this thread into a DS9 comparison. And the thread certainly doesn't need to turn into another Kes vs. Seven debate, either. The OP asked if Seven saved the series? The answer seems to point to "no". VOY had a lot of problems, and the introduction of one character didn't magically solve them.

Were Troi, LaForge, Riker or Crusher and better developed than Tuvok, Neelix, Kim or Paris?

Was Geordi really that much better than Kim or are they equally as lacking in depth of personality?
At least Harry got the girl, unlike Geordi.

In 7 years, was Troi really any more developed then Kes in 3?

Picard, Data & Worf got more screen time and development than the rest of the cast. Even TNG films only focus on Picard & Data.

Who's more annoying, Wesley or Neelix?
Who was written to be & who wasn't?

Besides TNG having more political based eps, I don't see very much difference in Voy from TNG. other than amping up the action. Too me, Voyager was entertaining. A show doesn't need all it's characters developed or uber-intelligent to be good or be Trek. Hell, TOS episode with Tribbles is a #1 all time fan favorite. I think there's a enough Voyager fans that helped the show run for a full seven years to prove, something about this show was worth while to us. Voyager, thanks to Seven of Nine got away, away more promotion and is more recognized by the public due to her image than DS9 ever did. A big complaint by Niner's is how Paramount/Berman didn't like DS9 and did little to promote it.

For a show the was plagued by problems, it did a great job of enduring.
I think we over look that and not see it as a sign of fan loyality and determination by all those involved w/ the show.

Too each his own, I guess.

 

[Guy Gardener]

So you mean the first officer and the captain being Lobsters didn't at all seem familiar in each show?

I think we knew all we needed to know about Bev after she admitted to being "The Dancing Doctor." No wonder she decided to fish for a husband completely out of her peer group and age group to get away from all that heckling.

 

[Warp Coil]

Were Troi, LaForge, Riker or Crusher and better developed than Tuvok, Neelix, Kim or Paris?

Was Geordi really that much better than Kim or are they equally as lacking in depth of personality?
At least Harry got the girl, unlike Geordi.

In 7 years, was Troi really any more developed then Kes in 3?

Yes, yes and yes. The TNG characters were better-developed than VOY's crew. Geordi, despite not getting the spotlight as much as others, was a more sympathetic and likable character than Kim. Troi actually developed quite a bit over the seven seasons.

 

[exodus]

Were Troi, LaForge, Riker or Crusher and better developed than Tuvok, Neelix, Kim or Paris?

Was Geordi really that much better than Kim or are they equally as lacking in depth of personality?
At least Harry got the girl, unlike Geordi.

In 7 years, was Troi really any more developed then Kes in 3?

Yes, yes and yes. The TNG characters were better-developed than VOY's crew. Geordi, despite not getting the spotlight as much as others, was a more sympathetic and likable character than Kim. Troi actually developed quite a bit over the seven seasons.

Well, I agree I'll have to disagree.
Especially because both our opinions are greatly bias as well.
They both grew more & more annoying, whiney as TNG progressed IMO.
Troi eventually developed into someone that would crash a top of the line ship her first time at the helm.
....and did she ever stop crying?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Picard's crew would have been "food" on a Klingon ship.

 

[exodus]

Picard's crew would have been "food" on a Klingon ship.

I was thinking more like "Bitch mates".

 

[borg_curious]

I recently got the whole series ,and to me when Jeri Ryan came on it was the shot in the arm the show needed.

It gave The Doctor an equal.

I have seen every episode of VOYAGER S4-7 and I really love the Seven of Nine character. Until today I had only seen a handful of episodes from S1-3...having just acquired the first 3 seasons I just started watching them. I had always heard the series was crap until season 4. I have just watched the first 8 episodes today & they are top notch IMO. For a first season of a Trek series this has to be the best (TOS not included). TNG totally sucked during it's first season & to this day are barely watchable (for me that is). I suppose Jeri Ryan was a shot in the arm to the series as it brought in a brand new (and very HOT) character with lots of story potential.

 

[Lynx]

They already had nine great characters with lot of potential for writing good stories about and they had a series with a great premise. They should have used that.

No need for changes in the cast.