Seven of Nine saved the show

[Lynx]

I don't know how people can talk about Kes like she was some epic character. She was trash.

Anyway, Ryan could dance rings around Lien in acting ability.

Ryan was like a more evolved version of Lien in a lot of ways. Much more attractive, intelligent and 10x the actress.

I strongly have to disagree with your statement.

First of all, Kes is definitely not "trash" (none of the Voyager character is) but a highly interesting character who added a lot to the show. Yes, I do find her an epic character.

The point with Kes is that she's both a complement and a contrast to more traditional action characters like Torres and maybe Janeway. Kes doesn't use force unless it's absolutely necessary, she outwits possible problems by moving around it and attacking it from another angle with her wit and smartness.

When it comes to acting, I admit that Ryan is very good but so is Lien too. The sad thing is that Lien wasn't given much opportunity to show her acting skills because Kes was supposed to be more of a background character. When she was given that opportunity in some episodes, she was brilliant. Ryan, on the other hand was given all opportunities to shine since the role of her character was to be the main character of the show.

Personally I find Kes more attractive than Seven. When it comes to intelligence, I'm sure that both actresses are very intelligent.

And even didn't save the show, that is a myth created by those who were in charge of the show. The ratings continued to go down after Seven joined.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

The show was better off booting Kes. Look at what happened to Lien just a couple years later. Imagine if she had done that transformation during the show's run?

 

[Guy Gardener]

It would have been betterer off with booting Kim so that we could have had beautiful blonde girls in stereo.

 

[Lynx]

The show was better off booting Kes. Look at what happened to Lien just a couple years later. Imagine if she had done that transformation during the show's run?

Maybe that supposed "transformation" was the result of being booted from the show?

Kes was a too good character to be kicked out like a piece of garbage and Lien was a too good actress to be kicked out like garbage.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Did you see the Drew Carey episodes with kate Walsh (Grey's Anatomy/Private Practice) and how they graduated her up to blimp size with an ever increasing series fat suits one larger than the other till Drew showed her a dirty movie they made together and she ran screaming?

For whatever reason she gained all that weight, and let's not forget Robbie's new chin in season 6, it would have gone a long way to address "Ocampan growth Spurts" over the course of her lifespan that she should look radically different from year to year.

Of course if she stayed there might not have been any radical change even if TPTB hadn't booted her to the curb and that cut wouldn't rub.

 

[Lynx]

Jennifer Lien was very slim and thin during her three years on the show and I'm sure that she would have stayed that way if she had remained in the cast for all seven seasons.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yes, but you hardly understand this from my point of view, I like it when a girl's carrying around a bit extra in the back.



I wonder if it was a caustic metaphor that her characters presence was dissolving the ship?

 

[exodus]

Not that i know the numbers, but Voyager's Budget was set up 5 years after Ds9's was

No it wasn't. DS9 began production in 1992, Voyager in 1994... that's two years.

I'm not disputing your points, just your math

That's not a math problem.

I obviously had an aneurysm.

Exodus?

TV isn't given new money on the fly just because it's profitable for the suits. They don't want to give away their profits to the "talent". Greedy sons of bitches don't share.

Agents go to war.

Kicking, screaming and burning each others homes down to ring just a few more cents out of their clients employers.

The reason these shows last for 7 years (suck it Enterprise!) is that the actors had 7 year contracts, and that it's easier to start a new show than to give a proven cast on a good show what they're actually worth. or worse yet, what they think they're worth. Actors. God help us all.

It has little to do with the actors, as much as it does with everybody in the ending credits getting paid. All those people and Union companies all factor into the budget. Does anybody here know the asking rate to have ILM under contact to the shows Special EFX? The lighting crew? Carpenters? Caterers?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I recently got the whole series ,and to me when Jeri Ryan came on it was the shot in the arm the show needed.

Yeah, I tend to think so. The actor who played Kes was good, but that character wasn't doing much worth watching after the first year.

 

[Guy Gardener]

No it wasn't. DS9 began production in 1992, Voyager in 1994... that's two years.

I'm not disputing your points, just your math

That's not a math problem.

I obviously had an aneurysm.

Exodus?

TV isn't given new money on the fly just because it's profitable for the suits. They don't want to give away their profits to the "talent". Greedy sons of bitches don't share.

Agents go to war.

Kicking, screaming and burning each others homes down to ring just a few more cents out of their clients employers.

The reason these shows last for 7 years (suck it Enterprise!) is that the actors had 7 year contracts, and that it's easier to start a new show than to give a proven cast on a good show what they're actually worth. or worse yet, what they think they're worth. Actors. God help us all.

It has little to do with the actors, as much as it does with everybody in the ending credits getting paid. All those people and Union companies all factor into the budget. Does anybody here know the asking rate to have ILM under contact to the shows Special EFX? The lighting crew? Carpenters? Caterers?

No sir, those people, those valuable and talented people are only (part of) why it costs so much to make tv, and it's a given, but a %2 increase in wages to combat inflation and cost of living sorted by their Unions every time their collective contracts come up is allowed for by the budget and can be forecasted for, years ahead of the game, so everything is tickity boo.

However, the actors are game changers. at the end of the 7th year, if paramount had said they wanted an 8th year AND they wanted the entire cast to remain... Those actors are fools if they are not, sorry, their agents are fools if they're not asking for double or triple what they settled for two thirds of a decade earlier. And if actors who were getting say maybe paid 20 percent of the budget, suddenly want 40 or 60 percent of the budget... Would TPTB even have enough money left over to make a show which didn't replace CGI with mime?

 

[exodus]

That's not a math problem.

I obviously had an aneurysm.

Exodus?

TV isn't given new money on the fly just because it's profitable for the suits. They don't want to give away their profits to the "talent". Greedy sons of bitches don't share.

Agents go to war.

Kicking, screaming and burning each others homes down to ring just a few more cents out of their clients employers.

The reason these shows last for 7 years (suck it Enterprise!) is that the actors had 7 year contracts, and that it's easier to start a new show than to give a proven cast on a good show what they're actually worth. or worse yet, what they think they're worth. Actors. God help us all.

It has little to do with the actors, as much as it does with everybody in the ending credits getting paid. All those people and Union companies all factor into the budget. Does anybody here know the asking rate to have ILM under contact to the shows Special EFX? The lighting crew? Carpenters? Caterers?

No sir, those people, those valuable and talented people are only (part of) why it costs so much to make tv, and it's a given, but a %2 increase in wages to combat inflation and cost of living sorted by their Unions every time their collective contracts come up is allowed for by the budget and can be forecasted for, years ahead of the game, so everything is tickity boo.

However, the actors are game changers. at the end of the 7th year, if paramount had said they wanted an 8th year AND they wanted the entire cast to remain... Those actors are fools if they are not, sorry, their agents are fools if they're not asking for double or triple what they settled for two thirds of a decade earlier. And if actors who were getting say maybe paid 20 percent of the budget, suddenly want 40 or 60 percent of the budget... Would TPTB even have enough money left over to make a show which didn't replace CGI with mime?

Voyager wasn't pulling in "Friends" like ratings numbers, no way would the cast get that type of raise. Even the cast of "Friends" didn't deserve that much. They just knew once the show ends, so did any of their chances at ever making that much going forward. So they threatened not to return until they got their raise. The cast of Voyager had no leverage in their corner to make such demands. So bye-bye 8th season.

 

[Lynx]

I recently got the whole series ,and to me when Jeri Ryan came on it was the shot in the arm the show needed.

Yeah, I tend to think so. The actor who played Kes was good, but that character wasn't doing much worth watching after the first year.

Not exacxtly the truth. There were many good Kes episodes in seasons 2 and 3, most notably "Cold Fire", "Persistence Of Vision", "Warlord", "Darkling", "The Swarm", "Before And After".

Besides that, if it had been that way, that the character didn't had much to do in those seasons, the writers should be blamed for that.

 

[exodus]

I recently got the whole series ,and to me when Jeri Ryan came on it was the shot in the arm the show needed.

Yeah, I tend to think so. The actor who played Kes was good, but that character wasn't doing much worth watching after the first year.

Not exacxtly the truth. There were many good Kes episodes in seasons 2 and 3, most notably "Cold Fire", "Persistence Of Vision", "Warlord", "Darkling", "The Swarm", "Before And After".

Besides that, if it had been that way, that the character didn't had much to do in those seasons, the writers should be blamed for that.

What the heck does any of this have to do with Seven of Nine being a successful character on the show?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Everything they did for seven as a Borg, they could have done with Kes as an Ocampa with just the mildest tweek of the script.

Actually with the Neelix dying,getting a lode of nanoprobes hyposprayed into his arm,that would have worked out better emotionally if he had to keep going back to her for her blood even though they're not together any more and it would have been interesting to explore why they broke up and how he still needs her in his life if not just literally like a vampire feeding off her.

All the stories about the Borg Queen, could have just as easily been about Susperia.

There was no need to Borg the show or Seven the show so weightedly.

And of course the actors are not going to get triple their wages, but it's still not going to stop them from making outrageous demands for their opening bids before they begin to get reasonable, unless walking away truly is an option, or folding the show is also an option. Allison Mack from Smallville I hear played some serious hardball before the beginning of the new season, and goodness know what that did to her bank account but for a few days word was that she was just seriously considering leaving.

By the way.

Fire Wang, and the rest of the actors who actually pulled their own weight could have got a ten percent raise. See it's just that easy to find the money to deal with (feed) Agents demanding the moon and the stars for their clients.

 

[exodus]

Everything they did for seven as a Borg, they could have done with Kes as an Ocampa with just the mildest tweek of the script.

Actually with the Neelix dying,getting a lode of nanoprobes hyposprayed into his arm,that would have worked out better emotinally if he had to keep going back to her for her blood even though they're not together anymore and it would have been interesting to explore why they broke up and how he still needs her in his life if not just literally like a vampire feeding off her.

All the stories about the Borg Queen, could have just as easily been about Susperia.

There was no need to Borg the show or Seven the show so weightedly.

And of course the actors are not going to get triple their wages, but it's still not going to stop them from making outragour demands for their opening bids before then begin to get reasonable unless walking away truly is an option, or folding the show is also an option. Allison mack from Smallville I hear played some serious hardball before the beginning of the new season, and goodness know what that did to her bank account but for a few days word was that she was just seriously considering leaving.

By the way.

Fire Wang, and the rest of the actors who actually pulled their own weight could have got a ten percent raise. See it's just that easy to find the money to deal with (feed) Agents demanding the moon and the stars for their clients.

Everything, even history itself could be different and played out better in hindsight. Kes could have been better if they wanted her to be, they didn't and cut their losses. They flat out told and showed us that they weren't interested developing her anymore.

Borg were huge fan favorites, they were always good for ratings boosts which is why they mostly appeared during sweeps & season enders. So as far as keeping the show afloat, the Borg not Susperia proved to be a hit.

Paramount put allot of money into promoting Seven to draw attention to Voyager. Every veiwer tuning in was expecting to see her. It would be a waste to use all that promo cash and barely have her in the show. So they used her for every cent they put into her. Even if she didn't help ratings, Seven did help sell lots of Voyager merchendise.

Doesn't Smallville still pull in bigger numbers and better sponsers than Voyager did? If so, Mack still has more leverage in her favor than the cast of Voyager did. I'm sure even the weakest Superman film pulls in a larger audience than most Trek films with Shatner in them. Superman has a way larger fanbase. Wasn't asking for more money and not getting it one of the issues Terry Ferrel had for not returning to DS9?

The producers were putting their money toward investments in the show that were paying off at the time. Most of the complaints and changes fans are talking about making to the show all happened in hindsight.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Dude, everything we do in this forum is hindsight.

 

[Bad Atom]

One of the problems was creating a show with nine regular characters, where the actors all get paid whether they're in an episode or not. Kim, Neelix and Kes could have easily been relegated to recurring status. If the characters didn't catch on, the writers could lose 'em.

For an example, there's Garak on DS9 - they used his character sparingly, and wisely.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Name 5 minor characters who caught on so wonderfully that they had more than 5 episodes?

I'm looking at the IMDB page, and it's just horrifying the lack of recycling.

Who the hell is Lt. Susan Nicoletti?

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Susan_Nicoletti

I recall seeing a documentary about TOS and they actually said their extra's got recalled depending on fanmail, which is just charming.

 

[Warp Coil]

One of the problems was creating a show with nine regular characters, where the actors all get paid whether they're in an episode or not. Kim, Neelix and Kes could have easily been relegated to recurring status. If the characters didn't catch on, the writers could lose 'em.

For an example, there's Garak on DS9 - they used his character sparingly, and wisely.

VOY was terrible when it came to their list of recurring characters. There were only a couple of Voyager crewmembers who popped up with any sort of regularity, and most were not really well-developed characters (hell, some of the series regulars were never well-developed characters). I've always been of the opinion that either Kes or Neelix could have been bumped to recurring status once they decided to add Seven of Nine to the series. By the 4th season, Neelix really didn't have very much to do. His role as Voyager's guide and liason through the delta quadrant had pretty much dried up because they were getting away from territory Neelix was familiar with. The only reason I think they kept Neelix on the show was because he was the "weird alien" in the cast. Every modern series needed at least one - TNG had Worf, DS9 had Quark, VOY had Neelix, and ENT had Phlox. I think it must'v'e been some sort of Berman mandate that you gotta put at least one actor in heavy prosthetic makeup. Neelix fulfilled that role, and maybe TPTB thought he provided good comic relief (he didn't), so they kept him. But the character was utterly useless.

They could've bumped Kes to recurring status, too. Use her perhaps 10-12 times a season. Continue to develop the characters as they saw fit, incorporate her into storylines with other characters like The Doctor, and try to get the most out of her instead of just randomly dropping her from the series. I honestly think that Kes and Seven could've developed a really interesting friendship had they been on the ship together.

DS9 is an amazing example of how a show with 9 series regulars can still find ways to incorporate an entire army of recurring characters into a show without sacrificing the development of the leads. Characters like Nog or Garak had more development of seven seasons than half of VOY's regular cast.

 

[Withers]

Voyager wasn't like Deep Space Nine in the sense that there could be twice as many heavily used recurring characters as there were series regulars. The shows premise, that it was constantly on the go, just didn't really allow for that possibility. Sure, they could have had more Shran-like characters (characters who are also just bounding about the Quadrant) but on the whole, the show just wasn't designed for a bunch of "B" additions to the "A" cast. When they tried... it flopped (see: Borg Children, Naomi Wildman, and the Kazon for some prime examples.)

That being said it would stand to reason that they then had plenty of time to develop the characters they had. They should have undergone a lot of personal growth through the experiences they had over seven years. It should have been an expose on what happens to Starfleet Officers who are lost, far from home. But it wasn't that. It has come to my attention that UPN mandated there be as few links from one episode to the next as possible and that accounts for some of that lacking. But the real problem is one that existed in Star Trek long before Voyager ever aired.

It's the "No harm/No Foul" clause. When a mistake is made it is resolved with little or no tangible (on screen) consequence other than a rebuke from the Captain or a meaningless (to the audience) notation in a permanent record. At the end of the episode most problems on Voyager were resolved to the point that they might as well not have happened at all in the first place. That limits the possibility for characters to ever really evolve in any significant or noticeable way.

Seven of Nine, by the nature of her character, changed this status quo. She had to change over the course of episodes given that she was rediscovering what it was to be a human being (just like the Doctor was being treated more and more like a person and less and less like a piece of equipment.) Even still, perhaps because of the UPN mandate, they rushed it. She went from "Put me back in!" to "Voyager in my collective now" in like... 5 episodes. So, it was nice to see that on Voyager, but it wasn't long after her introduction that that's all we saw; Shows about Seven and the Doctor's long road to humanity (with the help of the Captain.) If they would have applied the same inherent mobility in the other characters Seven wouldn't have been so necessary by season four. But you give a show that many episodes and show that slight a change in the core cast after what should've been at the very least harrowing and you have to do something. They bounced Kes and gave us Seven. It seems like a reasonable decision.

-Withers-​