Problem with Kirk's immediate promotion to Captain

[Jeri]

Saving the planet is the ultimate priority; they should have been nowhere else.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The entire FLEET wasn't wiped out by Nero.

No, it was just really far away from the planets Nero was going to destroy ie the Federation doing who knows what.

Now this leaves Stafleet with the following choices for command of the Enterprise.

1) One of the captains who were in the fleet that was too far away to help (which may remind people that most of Starfleet was far away leaving the Federation almost defenseless in the face of a mad Romulan who killed billions and was planing to kill even more by destroying planets.)

2) Spock who was on record as planning to meet up with the far way fleet even when his first officer pointed out that Nero would use that time it took them to do that to destroy the rest of the federation (based on logic that they needed more ships which wouldn't have helped considering Nero took out an entire Klingon fleet BEFORE showing up at Vulcan, plus again the public might not take that too well) and responded to said first officer by throwing him off the bridge, and then when the officer in question didn't want to go without a fight proceeded to violate Starfleet Regs by dumping the officer on a nearby planet (starships have a brig for a reason). No doubt the recent death of his mother and destruction of his homeworld had something to do with the just mentioned facts which would leave questions to his psychological fitness for command. Also when Spock Prime meet up with his younger self NuSpock made it clear he was planning to leave Starfleet to help the Vulcans rebuild so Stafleet may have been aware of this had he told them of this before changing his mind and removed him from the running.

Or

3) The young officer who saved all their collective asses in the face of the biggest threat to ever hit the Federation at this time and is likely a big damned hero in the public's eyes for among other things NOT being at or heading to the ass-end of the universe when the Federation was facing doom.

 

[Pauln6]

One assumes that the fleet was actually doing something in the Laurentian system other than being parked in a disabled bay. That's a lot of ships. They wouldn't be there unless there was a substantial threat to Federation security, possibly even a threat greater that the destruction of two planets albeit not necessarily an immediate one.

It's arrogant to assume that Earth is more important than the rest of the Federation. The needs of the many etc. Further, if the Narada was travelling slow enough for Enterprise to overtake at Warp 4, it would have taken weeks to reach Earth from Vulcan. Plenty of time to evacuate people and get some ships from the fleet across. The movie has a lot of illogical stuff in; this is just one of them.

The politics seem like Mayor Quimby - give them what they want so they cheer now matter how dumb the decision will seem tomorrow.

Still it is a moot point. He is a captain and he'll be a damn good one. I wasn't overly happy that they retconned the studious student to make him a 'hip' bad boy either (Kirk as the sensible one and Mitchell as the hip bad boy would have worked better for me). Ijust hope they don't make him too arrogant.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

In TOS, Kirk was an Ensign while still at the academy. We know this because Captain Garrovick was his CO "from the day [he] left the academy", and Garrovick commanded the Farragut, where Kirk was a lieutenant.

Or, Garrovick could have commanded the Republic on which Ensign Kirk was assigned straight from the academy. When Cpt Garrovick assumed command of the Farragut, Lt Kirk transferred with him.

 

[Michael]

I see a plot thread in the sequel where Kirk is wondering whether he actually deserves his command. Some might say that he got promoted through politics. ie the Federation wanted their poster boy hero to get his own ship and thus he got it.

Best idea I read in a while! They definitely should address this as a plot thread in the sequel.

 

[M'Sharak]

I see a plot thread in the sequel where Kirk is wondering whether he actually deserves his command. Some might say that he got promoted through politics. ie the Federation wanted their poster boy hero to get his own ship and thus he got it.

Best idea I read in a while! They definitely should address this as a plot thread in the sequel.

Either that, or have Kirk being confronted with the dissatisfaction of other command-track Starfleet officers over his quick promotion, even having it come up at a very inconvenient time during the mission -- "resentment rearing its ugly head"-type situation. Could be a huge test for Kirk to pass while at the same time keeping his eye on accomplishing the assigned mission.

Nice av, btw.

 

[startrekrcks]

Would he be wondering why they made him captain?

 

[lawman]

Re: Problem with Kirk's immediate promotion to Captain

Not if he's the only one of all your officers whose orders saved the planet. Most of them were safe in the Laurentian System -- or trying their damndest to get there, against Kirk's advice. None of them deserve the command more than Kirk.

Nonsense. Even setting aside the question of other officers elsewhere, the fact is that Spock deserved the promotion more than Kirk... yet, apparently, got no reward at all. After all...

Spock could have stopped Nero all by himself, without any of the "contributions" of Kirk: he removed Nero's stores of red matter, he destroyed the drill that threatened Earth, he eventually destroyed Nero's ship. All Kirk did was save Pike's life; his antics onboard the Narada didn't even add up to distracting Nero on a critical moment.

Indeed. And without the assistance of Spock (who, BTW, seemed awfully fit for duty immediately after declaring himself unfit)... not to mention a helluva lot of convenient coincidences... Kirk's "plan" would have failed. Miserably. Costing the lives of everyone on the Enterprise, and Earth as well. After all, what was his plan beyond "let's go back and fight the unbeatable bad guy single-handedly?"

He deserves a promotion, a commendation, and a medal. Promotion to captain is not a necessary step to reward him for his efforts. It was a childishly convenient way to set up the characters for their traditional roles on the Enterprise by the end of the film. It was daft.

QFT.

We and everything else living on the planet would be dead without Kirk's drive.

And, perhaps a bit more importantly, without Spock's planning, piloting, and tactical ability.

And without Scotty's incredibly convenient transporter "algorithm."

And, perhaps most importantly, without the fact that the Narada now housed the "red matter" that ultimately wound up destroying it... a fact that Kirk didn't know when he insisted on his "plan" to the point of insubordination.

Taken on its own, all Kirk's "drive" would have done is gotten him and everyone else killed.

A simple "four years later" at the end of the movie would have gone a long way to get rid of this discrepancy.

Kirk deserves a captaincy, that much we know. But not so damned soon.

Absolutely right.

Isn't there an element in ST:XI's premise of the universe trying to 'correct' itself? The timeline branched off in a weird way and so the universe is performing equally strange acrobatics of fate to return to where it's supposed to be.

I think I heard that concept stated in an interview with the writers or something...I can't remember precisely where.

Well, that's awfully damned convenient for the writers, isn't it? "We want the universe to be different, so we're not tied down... except when we want to keep it the same or excuse some outrageous coincidence, then we can say the universe is 'meant' to be that way."

Apparently the universe cares more about who's captaining a single starship than about the entire planet Vulcan and all the zillions of people who died on it?...

But that's the thing. It's inconceivable that there is literally no one else in Starfleet who deserves the captaincy of Enterprise. Starfleet must have hundreds of thousands of officers, and it is unthinkable that none of those are competent.

What's inconceivable is that any one of them deserves it more than he does. There are others who could do the job; but as I said, they can all get in line behind Kirk.

Why do you keep saying this, in the face of all contrary evidence?

Oh: perhaps it's because you believe...

Saving the planet is the ultimate priority; they should have been nowhere else.

Well, no. Wrong in at least two ways. First of all,

...It's arrogant to assume that Earth is more important than the rest of the Federation.

...and second, as has also been pointed out, in the long history of Trek we've seen countless Starfleet officers heroically save countless planets, including Earth, without getting wildly unprecedented promotions like this.

 

[startrekrcks]

I think logically he shouldn't have been made captain so soon but what can you do about it? Maybe they all wanted the crew to be all together at the end with Kirk as Captain of the Enterprise any thoughts should he have been given the captaincy.

 

[lawman]

What can I do about it? Nothing. What could the writers have done about it, though? They could have come up with something sensible and plausible, rather than just moving the characters around like chess pieces to get them where they "wanted."

 

[Jeri]

Saving the planet is the ultimate priority; they should have been nowhere else.

Well, no. Wrong in at least two ways. First of all,

...It's arrogant to assume that Earth is more important than the rest of the Federation.

Not wrong and not arrogant; Nero intended to destroy all the Federation planets, and Starfleet should have been at each one of them in turn.

...and second, as has also been pointed out, in the long history of Trek we've seen countless Starfleet officers heroically save countless planets, including Earth, without getting wildly unprecedented promotions like this.

Not countless; and not lieutenants. They're already at the rank where they're responsible for whole sectors; i.e., doing their job. To repeat: none of the officers of captain rank did more than Kirk to deserve it; and they can all get in line behind him.

 

[Pauln6]

Not wrong and not arrogant; Nero intended to destroy all the Federation planets, and Starfleet should have been at each one of them in turn.

Only the audience knows Nero's intentions and motivations.

Kirk's plan to sneak on board is sound, although given the limited amount of time between both ships arriving, we have to suspend disbelief that the Narada's long range sensors would not have detected the Enterprise on its approach to the solar system long before it was able to hide behind the planet. Admittedly, if enough time passed, Nero might assume that she was hiding in Earth Orbit.

Kirk displays a reasonable amount of leadership and innovation but his plan for just two crewmen to sneak onto the Narada is pretty poor. It's this kind of poor tactical planning that makes me doubt that he is ready to lead.

However, I will concede that there were plenty of TOS episodes where Kirk used ill-chosen, under-manned landing parties. That doesn't make it right

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Not wrong and not arrogant; Nero intended to destroy all the Federation planets, and Starfleet should have been at each one of them in turn.

Only the audience knows Nero's intentions and motivations.

Well accept for Kirk's "We have to assume every Federation planet is a target."

 

[Jeri]

Only the audience knows Nero's intentions and motivations...

Spock knows and still plans to escape to the Laurentian. The point is, it is not arrogant to expect the fleet to protect Earth when it's the one under attack. They should have done so for any of them.

However, I will concede that there were plenty of TOS episodes where Kirk used ill-chosen, under-manned landing parties. That doesn't make it right

And he was captain of the flagship.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Oh and to anybody going with the there are other captains more qualified stuff. I got the impression from Pike that these other captains are the type that wouldn't even wipe themseles unless they checked with command first. Do you really want someone like that commanding the flagship in a crisis?

 

[startrekrcks]

It's like they played Chess with the characters isn't it in a way

 

[Peter the Younger]

I see a plot thread in the sequel where Kirk is wondering whether he actually deserves his command. Some might say that he got promoted through politics. ie the Federation wanted their poster boy hero to get his own ship and thus he got it.

Best idea I read in a while! They definitely should address this as a plot thread in the sequel.

Either that, or have Kirk being confronted with the dissatisfaction of other command-track Starfleet officers over his quick promotion, even having it come up at a very inconvenient time during the mission -- "resentment rearing its ugly head"-type situation. Could be a huge test for Kirk to pass while at the same time keeping his eye on accomplishing the assigned mission.

I have liked this idea since the movie came out; I think it would blend nicely with a "rogue Starfleet officer" type of villain. Mind you, I'm not saying an officer should go rogue over Kirk's promotion, but it would make for a nice subplot; the other officers telling Kirk he can't beat a man with this much experience. It's very TOS, a theme they visited several times.

Having said that, I do think it was daft to promote Kirk to captain, but like the inappropriate use of Delta Vega, I've made my peace with it.

 

[Withers]

He deserves a promotion, a commendation, and a medal. Promotion to captain is not a necessary step to reward him for his efforts. It was a childishly convenient way to set up the characters for their traditional roles on the Enterprise by the end of the film. It was daft.

This explains how I feel about this as accurately as anything I've read. If we applied this behavior to other events that have taken place in the STU, Starfleet would be filled to the brim with Captains that came directly from the academy. If all it takes is saving the planet to prove you deserve the Flag Ship there's a new chance every other week.


-Withers-​

 

[Pauln6]

If the suggestion that every other captain in the fleet is a wuss turns out to be true, this will be another problem I have with NuTrek, not a justification for Kirk's promotion. Even original Kirk was not that great... I love the vibe of TOS but Picard was a far superior commanding officer.

 

[BillJ]

Only the audience knows Nero's intentions and motivations...

Spock knows and still plans to escape to the Laurentian. The point is, it is not arrogant to expect the fleet to protect Earth when it's the one under attack. They should have done so for any of them.

Spock was ordered to rendezvous with the fleet in the Laurentian system by Captain Pike. Didn't you watch the movie?