Problem with Kirk's immediate promotion to Captain

[Timo]

...One wonders how short Starfleet is on starships. When Pike has to give up the Enterprise (they don't have wheelchair ramps on the bridge?), is there a long queue of experienced officers waiting for his former command like a bunch of hyenas? Or are there more ships than commanders, so that even some lesser candidates can hope to catch a command before they turn fifty?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

We have no evidence that Prime Kirk would have graduated at any rank other than Ensign. Indeed, we know for certain that Kirk did hold the commissioned rank of Ensign at one point, "several years" after his Academy studies ("Court Martial").

In TOS, Kirk was an Ensign while still at the academy. We know this because Captain Garrovick was his CO "from the day [he] left the academy", and Garrovick commanded the Farragut, where Kirk was a lieutenant.

 

[Timo]

But we also know that Lieutenant Kirk was an instructor at the Academy. There is no reason to believe that Lieutenant Kirk or Ensign Kirk would have been undergraduates - postgraduates loiter at the Academy as well.

Indeed, Finney complained that due to the mark in his records, he was "late in being assigned to a starship". It's far from given that an Academy graduate actually leaves the Academy any time soon...

Clearly, the service on the Republic didn't count as "being assigned to a starship" for Finney. Why should it have counted for the graduated Ensign Kirk?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Pauln6]

Yeah it does seem that the more ambitious cadets can achieve the rank of ensign before they complete their training. Training cruises like the one in TWoK would be common so perhaps the ensign rank is awarded after completing a cadet cruise satisfactorily. It also seems likely that 'post-grad' studies can be undertaken at the acadamy, including the Kobayashi Maru test, possibly to allow cadets to achieve the rank of Lt(jg) before a permanent assignment to starship duty. Other non-command staff can also be awarded higher ranks on graduation, such as doctors and lawyers.

I think TOS Kirk probably completed his acadamy training and hung on to undertake further training while acting as an instructor to maximise his chances of getting the posting he wanted.

I balk at the notion that Kirk is so awesome that we have to bow down before him. He's good, better than many, but he was also very lucky. I seem to recall that a lot of his crew ended up dead too. One of the things I disliked most in the latter TOS films was Kirk starting to believe his own hype. Arrogance in a commanding officer is an unattractive trait and overwhelming self-belief has often been shown to be dangerous.

Having said that, as long as Spock is allowed to apply some logic and Bone's some 'irrational' and emotional home truths and not just massaging Kirk's ego, the dynamic of TOS should work.

 

[Jeri]

A short, inexperienced service record where an officer took huge gambles that paid off doesn't mean that the officer will make a good captain either...

We already know the experienced officers screwed up: they were going to let billions of people and every living thing on the planet die. If Kirk has problems in the captain's chair, it's not likely anything he does can top that.

The answer to this whole debate was right there on the screen as we pulled back from the promotion ceremony to see Spock Prime in the hall's observation room. As we heard him say "Thrusters on full...", I took that to mean he had stepped in and spoken with Starfleet...

Yes, I love that. But it gets into the whole area of how much Spock tells Starfleet...a whole other topic -- or multiple topics, IIRC.

(Want to hear something funny? I was just running our kitchen-sink disposer, and it sounds just like the Narada's planetary drill -- doesn't run too smooth! Every time I turn it on, it reminds me of drilling into San Francisco Bay -- and I have to wonder just what is really going on down there!)

 

[Pauln6]

We already know the experienced officers screwed up: they were going to let billions of people and every living thing on the planet die. If Kirk has problems in the captain's chair, it's not likely anything he does can top that.

Actually Kirk's plan was pretty lame too. It only succeeded because, through some contrivance of plot, the Narrada was travelling to earth at less than warp 4. We have to assume Pike held out the security codes to get past the defence grids (that Vulcan, rather illogically didn't bother with) precisely long enough for Enterprise to overtake.

However, realistically, the Enterprise couldn't catch the Narada and had no hope of fighting it, so the sensible call would have been to send secure transmissions to Earth to advise THEM to carry out the mnaoeuvre that Kirk eventually carried out (there weren't that many Romulans so a security team beamed in might have stood a chance).

Spock's call was more sensible and logical. Kirk's success wasn't due to his tactical brilliance but rather due to inanely written villains and appallingly poor Federation security.

 

[Jeri]

Actually...

The experienced officers had no plan. Spock doomed Earth to destruction when he changed course for the Laurentian sector. Once again, didn't people see the movie?

Kirk succeeded because of his drive: to quote TOS, he always wants that third alternative.

 

[Timo]

realistically, the Enterprise couldn't catch the Narada and had no hope of fighting it

Why not? Ships in Star Trek are sometimes portrayed as possessing exactly the same maximum speed, thereby allowing for fancy chase scenes - but it is also an oft-mentioned fact of Trek that there are ships much slower than the Starfleet frontline ones. Those include freighters and private yachts; it's only natural if a mining rig is included in that category, too...

There's also some plot logic to the odd fact that military power wasn't brought to bear against the Narada. Seven starships had previously proven insufficient - so it does stand to reason that the Vulcans wouldn't attempt their own attack with even feebler forces. If the Narada could stop seven starships from firing on its drill, surely it could stop any Vulcan artillery unit or atmospheric fighter or nearspace corvette from doing the same. It just couldn't stop three lightly armed men it didn't even see.

The same logic could apply to why Earth did not resist, although there I'd blame it all more on reaction time than anything else. If the activation of the drill really was Earth's first warning (and Pike had divulged the codes that would make the ship's approach of Sol invisible), then it's perfectly possible that Earth was going to respond - but Spock got there first, destroying the drill moments before Earth did.

It does take quite a bit of suspension of disbelief, sure. But not quite as much as believing that Starfleet would reward Kirk with captaincy and Captain rank for something that made Starfleet look bad. A medal or ten, sure (Prime Kirk had plenty of those). But a promotion? Only if it served the greater political goal of revamping Starfleet to Pike's liking. Which as such isn't a bad idea. It merely assumes Pike had pull.

Which brings up the interesting related question. Why did Pike jump from Captain to a full Admiral in the time Kirk jumped from Cadet (or Lieutenant) to Captain? That's not Commodore or Rear Admiral braid he's wearing while in the wheelchair. That's the thick flag braid plus three thin ones, denoting four steps of promotion all at once!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Pauln6]

Actually, there were no experienced officers on the Enterprise apart from Spock and he's only about 4 years out of the Acadamy himself!

Kirk's plan was better than anybody else's and you have a point, the other officers, Pike included, and the vulcans were pretty dumb tactically so maybe we are supposed to believe that his juvenile, risky heroics really are a revelation to them (like Sy Stallone in Demolition Man). However, I still don't think he displayed sufficent qualities to be put in charge of the flagship of the fleet immediately unless, as mentioned elsewhere, it was a publicity stunt and he will be on very restricted duties.

If it wasn't for Spock Prime's comments about the vulcans we could have believed that some time had passed to justify the rank increases. That would have made loads more sense.

 

[Jeri]

It does take quite a bit of suspension of disbelief, sure. But not quite as much as believing that Starfleet would reward Kirk with captaincy and Captain rank for something that made Starfleet look bad.

Starfleet does look bad; no getting around it. Kirk makes them look good; not hard to believe they'd give him the flagship, when nobody else deserves it. He's what they've got going for them. Better focus on that instead of poking underneath it.

 

[Jeri]

...his juvenile, risky heroics..

Not juvenile; he's young at this point, but it's the same essential approach Kirk uses all his life.

He makes his luck; he creates situations where he can take advantage of opportunities that arise. He always has the success of the mission in view and does not give up.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

not hard to believe they'd give him the flagship, when nobody else deserves it.

But that's the thing. It's inconceivable that there is literally no one else in Starfleet who deserves the captaincy of Enterprise. Starfleet must have hundreds of thousands of officers, and it is unthinkable that none of those are competent.

Look, I'm not saying Kirk doesn't deserve a reward or commendation of some kind. He obviously does. But he got MORE than he deserved. I realize that viewers expect Kirk to be Captain, and so that's what he was at the end of the film. But I still don't like it. Kirk's too young and inexperienced, and I think we all know that.

And as we also know, Kirk does not have to have the RANK of Captain to have the POSITION of Captain. He could have had a permanent commission as a Lieutenant, or Lieutenant Commander, and still been the ship's CO. And he would still be referred to as Captain Kirk, even without the rank of that name. Indeed, if it wasn't for his uniform rank stripes at the end of the film, I'd almost believe that he was. But anyway, even if you believe that Kirk should have the role of ship's captain, he clearly doesn't deserve the RANK. Not yet.

 

[Jeri]

But that's the thing. It's inconceivable that there is literally no one else in Starfleet who deserves the captaincy of Enterprise. Starfleet must have hundreds of thousands of officers, and it is unthinkable that none of those are competent.

What's inconceivable is that any one of them deserves it more than he does. There are others who could do the job; but as I said, they can all get in line behind Kirk.

 

[startrekrcks]

ah well too late to change it now he is captain maybe in the next movie there has to be a explanation to why he was made captain so soon.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There are others who could do the job; but as I said, they can all get in line behind Kirk.

Until we actually meet any of those people, we can't say that. Where's Captain Garrovick? Garth of Izar? Those were heroes to Kirk in TOS' time. There has to be a reason for that...

And even if I buy into this Kirk worship, then what do you think of my last idea? Having Kirk be the captain without being, well, a Captain? He doesn't need the rank to have the position. Indeed, having Kirk be captain while having the rank of, say, Lt. Cmdr., would help to explore the point that Starfleet is depleted and is having to rebuild its forces, and thus officers of lower rank are being bumped up to command roles quickly (while still at lower rank of course). Doesn't this make sense?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

There are others who could do the job; but as I said, they can all get in line behind Kirk.

Until we actually meet any of those people, we can't say that. Where's Captain Garrovick? Garth of Izar?

They were probably at the assend of the Universe (the same place Spock wanted to go) and out of range to do anything to help doing only god knows what, while the Narada was running around destroying planets and killing billions. That isn't exactly something Stafleet would want to advertise about anyone commanding the Flagship.

 

[Jeri]

They were probably at the assend of the Universe (the same place Spock wanted to go) and out of range to do anything to help doing only god knows what, while the Narada was running around destroying planets and killing billions. That isn't exactly something Stafleet would want to advertise about anyone commanding the Flagship.

Yeah; we don't need to meet them. We know where they were. If they're not already feeling badly about being there, then giving Kirk command of the flagship with a rank lower than captain is not going to make those kind of guys feel any better either. It won't matter to the others.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ My point is that those captains could still be around. Somewhere. And going from what little was established about them in TOS (Garrovick, for example, was very well thought of, Kirk described him as 'one of the finest men I've ever known'; and before Garth's insanity, which may not have even happened in the Abramsverse, his exploits as captain were legendary), they are clearly excellent officers. At least as much as Kirk, probably more so. So there's no reason why Kirk deserves the Enterprise more than they do.

 

[Jeri]

So there's no reason why Kirk deserves the Enterprise more than they do.

Here's why: it was their job to protect Earth, and they failed miserably. They can get in line behind the guy who didn't fail.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

So there's no reason why Kirk deserves the Enterprise more than they do.

Here's why: it was their job to protect Earth, and they failed miserably.

How do you know? They could have been on assignment somewhere else. The entire FLEET wasn't wiped out by Nero.