A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

[Kegg]

He is on the mark that it's presented as a more subtle, understated scene compared to the comic effect of, say, the Centauri religion. It's the only moment in the episode to shoot for gravitas. Obviously that's because human religion is the only one anyone's touchy about.

Except, JMS, that the only reason that only humans are diverse is because you couldn't be arsed to think up more than one religion/culture per civilization!

Diversity is hard. With many space operas, cultures are the defining difference between major races, not anything else, and Babylon 5 follows this trope to the letter; as indeed it also does in taking inspiration from real world cultures (as I've already bloviated about).

 

[stonester1]

"Taking inspiration from" is not the same thing as "copied" ie the Centari are NOT the Italians. In fact, I never even made that comparison until you mentioned it. And it fits...if you are being superficial, or looking for an anti-B5 cheap shot.

But B5 does NOT follow that trope to the letter. From the multiple casts of the Minbari, to more than one language, from the Narn's multiple religions, on and on and on...no, they didn't go in depth about it, unless it was to service the story. Why? Because there WAS a story, a BIG story to tell.

But no, B5 did NOT follow the "tropes" to the letter.

 

[CorporalClegg]

^
I don't know Italians so much as Romans.

 

[stonester1]

^
I don't know Italians so much as Romans.

I can see more of that. I've no doubt that elements of the Roman Empire inspired some of the ideas that became the Centauri.

 

[Stevil2001]

Except, JMS, that the only reason that only humans are diverse is because you couldn't be arsed to think up more than one religion/culture per civilization!

Diversity is hard. With many space operas, cultures are the defining difference between major races, not anything else, and Babylon 5 follows this trope to the letter; as indeed it also does in taking inspiration from real world cultures (as I've already bloviated about).

Oh, I know why it happens. I too have watched television. But though I suppose I might be off the mark with "superior", you're definitely supposed to be proud/impressed as a viewer... but for what is a fairly dumb reason.

 

[Neroon]

WHy a "dumb reason"? What was so dumb about it?

 

[Brian]

I think it fit perfectly well in the context of the series....

Spoiler: human role in the B5 universe

... that humans are community builders, and are uniquely qualified to bring diverse races together, being the glue that binds them. The fact that all of those diverse religions can still coexist on a unified Earth, and one system of belief hasn't subjugated the others as in the other races.

 

[Seven of Five]

Wasn't it also the first episode with the full ensamble in it?

Did it? I don't seem to remember Talia Winters, say, but maybe she was in that episode. I'd be curious if there were any episodes of any season that had the full ensemble listed in the credits; actually, it'd strike me as a rather rare occurrence. Unlike Star Trek B5 is seldom keen on that idea.

Talia! I forgot Talia! I always forget Talia.

Anyway, I remember reading somewhere how it was built into the concept of the series before the show was sold that to lessen the costs, some of the main cast would be signed on 13 episode contracts.

 

[Kegg]

"Taking inspiration from" is not the same thing as "copied" ie the Centari are NOT the Italians.

Uh-huh. And I'm pretty sure I never parsed it so simply, I did even bring the French into the equation. So why the straw-man?

And it fits...if you are being superficial, or looking for an anti-B5 cheap shot.

I'm being neither. There's nothing superficial about the resemblance, it strongly informs how the idea of Centauri culture is developed and also the arcs upon which the Centauri and Londo are involved in.

But B5 does NOT follow that trope to the letter. From the multiple casts of the Minbari, to more than one language, from the Narn's multiple religions,

There's three. Of either. And given what little the show says about Narn religion it always sounded to me more like three different variations of a faith (like Sunni and Shi'a Islam, or Catholic and Protestant Christianity) than three completely distinct religious beliefs.

Not that this really matters since I was talking about culture, not religion or language; and both the Minbari and Narn have exactly one culture. So, yes, the trope shoe fits.

^
I don't know Italians so much as Romans.

More Italians (and French) really. Given the late 18th/early 19th century 'Empire' look; their wines, opera, and even many of their names ('Londo Mollari' sounds very Italianate).

The only real Roman influence I can think of would be their gods; a large pantheon which includes a number of their former emperors.

 

[stonester1]

Not that this really matters since I was talking about culture, not religion or language; and both the Minbari and Narn have exactly one culture. So, yes, the trope shoe fits.

Sure, if you want to shoehorn it all into one "culture" by Kegg's fiat.

But you could do that with Earth "culture", too.

^
I don't know Italians so much as Romans.

More Italians (and French) really. Given the late 18th/early 19th century 'Empire' look; their wines, opera, and even many of their names ('Londo Mollari' sounds very Italianate).

The only real Roman influence I can think of would be their gods; a large pantheon which includes a number of their former emperors.[/QUOTE]

Feasting...orgies...general decadence...strong world/galaxy conquering military power...Romans.

 

[CorporalClegg]

^
But much of French and Italian culture is derived from the Romans.

 

[Kegg]

But you could do that with Earth "culture", too.

Yes you could. There is sci-fi which depicts Earth as monocultural; and most space operas tend to lean towards their country of origin when it comes to depicting human populations (an East German film might have the token American and Japanese character, say.)

And besides that our culture is becoming increasingly global.

But if you mean that the real world has about the amount of cultural distinction, then no. There aren't Minbari who are culturally distinct from the whole Grey Council three caste shebang, for example, and it is that, rather than their physical differences, which make them notable as a species.

Feasting...orgies...general decadence...strong world/galaxy conquering military power...

Exactly. The French.

I guess the Centauri lament about how their empire has fallen into decline has a Gibbons-esque tinge to it though, to concede the point. (Best bit in the pilot, but then, Londo so often gets the best bits.)

 

[stonester1]

But if you mean that the real world has about the amount of cultural distinction, then no.

Obviously I don't mean that. I do mean that one could make such a sweeping generalization, if they so chose. JMS did strive to make his aliens more than cutouts, and did NOT seek to follow the usual established tropes, one of the reasons his show is such a standout.

He gave out pieces at times if they suited the story, or to add some flavor here and there. Obviously, there is no time, or really, no need, to go the depth that one has available with our "real" world.

 

[Kegg]

JMS did strive to make his aliens more than cutouts, and did NOT seek to follow the usual established tropes, one of the reasons his show is such a standout.

I'd like you to explain to me in what way the depiction of aliens on B5 is fundamentally different from that in Star Trek and the seasons of TNG that were around prior to this show.

There are things about his series which make it a standout, and I'd agree a big part of that is how he handles aliens, but that's in the sense he has more than one alien regular of a given species which enables him to do whole stories or arcs about those aliens, and also the ways the aliens relate to each other politically and so on and so forth... but the aliens themselves are par for the course of space opera, even when limited to TV.

 

[Stevil2001]

WHy a "dumb reason"? What was so dumb about it?

Because the aliens are only less diverse because JMS wrote them that way? If he had written multi-cultural alien species (and I understand why he didn't), you couldn't have had a self-congratulatory scene like that.

 

[Neroon]

Par for the course or not - and I have been critical in the past of the way "non-human" cultures are portrayed so homogeneously - there is some merit to seeing them that way provided they are sufficiently more advanced and older than humanity. They've had time to coalesce into a more unified system, smoothe down the rough edges, etc. If B5 is guilty of some trope and it definitely has at times, I don't normally count the non-human races as such.

I'm still having trouble seeing the problems you are having with these races, Kegg. I'm not saying your points are invalid, just that I need help in understanding specifically what those problems are.

 

[Kegg]

I'm still having trouble seeing the problems you are having with these races, Kegg. I'm not saying your points are invalid, just that I need help in understanding specifically what those problems are.

I don't have a problem with them, but I'm not interested in praising them for something they don't have, which is either being diverse or being, conceptually speaking, any sort of new spin on the idea for TV space opera. They're monocultural alien species, this is typical, that's all (and I'm fine with that, as I said, diversity is hard - and as stonester implied, such diversity is largely unnecessary for B5's purposes.)

 

[Neroon]

Okay, I got it. And I even agree with you on that. There is some diversity, but not as much as some folks might like to have. but as both you and satonester1 have said... it's not necessary for B5's purpose.

 

[JoeD80]

JMS did strive to make his aliens more than cutouts, and did NOT seek to follow the usual established tropes, one of the reasons his show is such a standout.

I'd like you to explain to me in what way the depiction of aliens on B5 is fundamentally different from that in Star Trek and the seasons of TNG that were around prior to this show.

You answered that right in the next paragraph:

There are things about his series which make it a standout, and I'd agree a big part of that is how he handles aliens, but that's in the sense he has more than one alien regular of a given species which enables him to do whole stories or arcs about those aliens, and also the ways the aliens relate to each other politically and so on and so forth

The extensive political development of the major races and how often we see it in the story was the key to Babylon 5's interesting take on aliens to me, not that they were more multicultural or something. The Centauri & the Narn were key to the story, rather than just having the interesting occasional episodes about Klingons or Romulans.

 

[Kegg]

You answered that right in the next paragraph:

How does any of that prove the aliens aren't using the established tropes? Maybe I wasn't altogether clear here. The alien cultures and societies are basically par for the course.

How they are used in the plot of the series is distinct from this, and doesn't contradict the fact they are very much typical aliens-as-monocultural-nations.