I miss the "clever klingons" from TOS...

[finnobrit]

The whole "remastered" series was a nice excuse to buy the TOS DVDs , and it was great fun to watch these stories again. They stood on their own two feet without the viewer requiring any prior knowledge.

One thing that struck me though, the Klingons of TOS seem to be much cleverer than those of the films and later series. The original Klingons are very devious and skilled at strategy, like evil opposites of Kirk. They're aggressive, but not in a stupid way.

But then in the films and TNG onwards, Klingons seem to gradually become closer to space cavemen. :/

I'm not saying it was a 100% change, some new series episodes were better than others, and Undiscovered Country had some very intelligent Klingon characters (especially Gorkon and Chang).

But in general, why do TOS Klingons seem cleverer than those in later Trek? Was there something about the new makeup that reminded writers of Neanderthals?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The original Klingons morphed into the Cardassians.

 

[Shazam!]

Yeah, I kinda miss those devious bastards too. The modern Klingons don't interest me at all.

 

[Tomalak]

It seemed to be something they did with Worf in the first season of TNG. He was always growling at things and had to be restrained with a sharp word from Picard.

I don't think the Klingons ever recovered from that incessant growling.

 

[finnobrit]

Tomalak, you could well be right, Worf was a regular character and a klingon so a lot of people would have used him as a reference point rather than TOS.

Worf never seemed to have much to do. The actual actor was very good, when he was given a chance to shine... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zweQgrLjh_s ...but all too often he was lazily portrayed as a violent idiot. However, that's perhaps a topic for the TNG forum.

 

[seigezunt]

The problem was the whole "honorable Klingon" yadda yadda BS. At some point, if they are so freeking honorable, why are they always backing the wrong horse? They must be stupid, ergo.

 

[TheKeeper]

It's been noted that in TNG the Romulans were aggressive thugs and the Klingons the honor-bound warriors, a near total reversal from their characterizations in TOS.

 

[Therin of Andor]

It's been noted that in TNG the Romulans were aggressive thugs and the Klingons the honor-bound warriors, a near total reversal from their characterizations in TOS.

Dating back to the original script treatment for ST III. The lines Kruge spouted to Valkris, Torg and Maltz about honor and duty in the film were originally written for Romulans on a cloaked Romulan bird of prey, harkening back to Romulan honor and duty as seen in the Romulan episodes of TOS and TAS.

But movies are made for a general audience, and it would have taken too much explanation as to why Sarek, Saavik, young Spock and T'Lar in ST III had pointed ears and slanty eyebrows and were the good guys, and yet the crew of the Bird of Prey looked so similar but were the bad guys.

TNG simply carried on the Klingon honor and duty from there, leaving the Romulans to be the sneaky ones.

 

[TheKeeper]

^ Intriguing. I've always thought there was something a little off in the characterization of Kruge and crew. I used to think it was part of a planned transition of Klingons from thug to samurai. This makes more sense, though.

 

[seigezunt]

It's been noted that in TNG the Romulans were aggressive thugs and the Klingons the honor-bound warriors, a near total reversal from their characterizations in TOS.

Dating back to the original script treatment for ST III. The lines Kruge spouted to Valkris, Torg and Maltz about honor and duty in the film were originally written for Romulans on a cloaked Romulan bird of prey, harkening back to Romulan honor and duty as seen in the Romulan episodes of TOS and TAS.

But movies are made for a general audience, and it would have taken too much explanation as to why Sarek, Saavik, young Spock and T'Lar in ST III had pointed ears and slanty eyebrows and were the good guys, and yet the crew of the Bird of Prey looked so similar but were the bad guys.

TNG simply carried on the Klingon honor and duty from there, leaving the Romulans to be the sneaky ones.

^ Intriguing. I've always thought there was something a little off in the characterization of Kruge and crew. I used to think it was part of a planned transition of Klingons from thug to samurai. This makes more sense, though.

Aah, that's when that whole line of truffle started.

You are a veritable fount, Therin.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I used to think it was part of a planned transition of Klingons from thug to samurai. This makes more sense, though.

Maltz wanting Kirk to kill him, rather than take him prisoner, in ST III reminds me of a TAS episode, "The Practical Joker", wherein Kirk worries how the Romulans will react when they find out they've been the victim of a practical joker - and tricked into firing on a weather balloon decoy disguised as the Enterprise.

 

[T'Bonz]

It's been noted that in TNG the Romulans were aggressive thugs and the Klingons the honor-bound warriors, a near total reversal from their characterizations in TOS.

Yep. I would have preferred that both would have stayed the way that they originally were.

 

[finnobrit]

It's been noted that in TNG the Romulans were aggressive thugs and the Klingons the honor-bound warriors, a near total reversal from their characterizations in TOS.

Dating back to the original script treatment for ST III. The lines Kruge spouted to Valkris, Torg and Maltz about honor and duty in the film were originally written for Romulans on a cloaked Romulan bird of prey, harkening back to Romulan honor and duty as seen in the Romulan episodes of TOS and TAS.

But movies are made for a general audience, and it would have taken too much explanation as to why Sarek, Saavik, young Spock and T'Lar in ST III had pointed ears and slanty eyebrows and were the good guys, and yet the crew of the Bird of Prey looked so similar but were the bad guys.

TNG simply carried on the Klingon honor and duty from there, leaving the Romulans to be the sneaky ones.

Ahaaaa!

That's a really, really good explanation. And now it makes sense why they called it a Klingon "bird of prey" in the film when that term was used for Romulan ships in TOS.

That sounds like it explains it all, it fits the timing perfectly too as all the new Trek series came after ST III.

Thank you for that, it's most enlightening.

 

[Therin of Andor]

And now it makes sense why they called it a Klingon "bird of prey" in the film when that term was used for Romulan ships in TOS.

And... the Klingon Neutral Zone.

This is from a script premise called "Return to Genesis". In that, it's Romulans trying to get the secret of Genesis - and Spock's spirit returns as a kind of vampiric creature who appears in mirrors.

 

[Orcus]

Let's start a "Bring Back Kor" campaign today...

...actually it's surprising we never saw him again in TOS. I always thought he was the best one of the lot...

 

[TheKeeper]

And... the Klingon Neutral Zone.

This is from a script premise called "Return to Genesis". In that, it's Romulans trying to get the secret of Genesis - and Spock's spirit returns as a kind of vampiric creature who appears in mirrors.

If that's the case, we were better off with revisionist Klingons!

Let's start a "Bring Back Kor" campaign today...

...actually it's surprising we never saw him again in TOS. I always thought he was the best one of the lot...

A shame. It would have been glorious!

 

[CDP]

And now it makes sense why they called it a Klingon "bird of prey" in the film when that term was used for Romulan ships in TOS.

And... the Klingon Neutral Zone.

This is from a script premise called "Return to Genesis". In that, it's Romulans trying to get the secret of Genesis - and Spock's spirit returns as a kind of vampiric creature who appears in mirrors.

The Klingon Neutral Zone was established in TWOK during the Kobayashi maru..

 

[Kelso]

The Klingons never seemed particularly clever.

 

[Nerroth]

The idea of a NZ of sorts between the Federation and the Klingon Empire was postulated in Franz Joseph's Star Fleet Technical Manual, with the Organian Treaty Zone shown on the galactic map. Indeed, a copy of the treaty itself (or rather FJ's take on such) is included, too, that shows how that zone differed from the one dividing the UFP from the Romulan Star Empire - while the latter NZ was strictly off-limits, the Organian-brokered zone still allowed for trade and colonisation efforts.


While this kind of detail was not pursued by the Franchise, its' been a part of the Tech Manual-derived Star Fleet Universe for over 30 years - where smooth-ridged pragmatic TOS-like Klingons have been alive and well!


In that setting, the Romulans are perhaps more focused on the idea of 'honour' - while the theme which may more adequately refer to the SFU Klingons is 'duty'.

A Romulan would be expected to hold his personal honour, that of his House and that of the Star Empire highly, though interpretations of such honour codes vary widely.

For the Klingons, in contrast (as well as the various subject species which serve the Empire's many needs) the onus would be to pursue the well-being and success of the Empire as a whole - not least in terms of avoiding needless waste.

(The Empire in that universe is almost surrounded by enemies and is less economically powerful than the Federation, so maintains its formidable fleet at the cost of a lower-than-average standard of living for its population.)

 

[Hambone]

The Klingon Neutral Zone was established in TWOK during the Kobayashi maru..

...which further blurred the line by stating that they were in the Gamma Hydra system, which was established in "The Deadly Years" as being near the Romulan Neutral Zone. Perhaps we're supposed to think the Klingon and Romulan neutral zones are back-to-back? Geez, what a rotten neighborhood.