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Superman's Problem - just my take

Looking over these posts, I'm leaning toward any problem with Supes being from a writing perspective, not a character perspective. I think he is still a very popular character. What kid-little boys especially-don't want to fly?

I do think though that one of Supes' problems has been relatibility. As audiences have gotten more sophisticated and perhaps jaded or cynical, the Dudley-Do Right way in which Superman was portrayed since the 40s perhaps just felt passe, and boring. I think DC eventually realized that and have tried to update the character several times since the 80s. The shows Lois and Clark and Smallville have also tried to make Superman more relatable, by focusing on "Clark" at the expense of "Superman". I think the themes of loneliness, of being an outsider, of being exploited, of misuing your powers or talents, of being a danger to the ones closest to you, I think these things could all be part of Superman's personal issues. Also, the very real problem that Superman can't be in all places at once and to some extent he has to play God in choosing what crises to deal with and which ones he should pass on. Also, whether he should just be Superman full time. I think there are occassional stories that deal with those pressures and perhaps there needs to be more of a focus of that aspect of Supes' dilemma. Another thing I don't think has adequately been explored in the films at least is the anti-Superman contingent. It seems like there would be strong opposition to him from some governments, even elements of the US government, there might be religious and other people protestors, just like I'm sure that some cults might spring up to worship him. These are all things to play with, if they haven't been played with before or a lot. I'm an off and on Superman reader so I don't know much about his comics history. In the comics, they have started playing with the anti-Kryptonian sentiment and I think that's a good direction.

As for Superman Returns. I think Singer tried to update Superman for the 21st century, I just think he did it in a bad way. With the allusions to being a messiah (yeah, I know I just said something about that in the other paragraph; but I would rather it be something debated among the characters and rejected by Superman than just to be portrayed as Singer did without comment), giving him an illegitimate son, having him stalk Lois, having him go back on his word (from Superman 2) about never letting the President down again. I also think he squandered Spacey, and provided way too few moments in which Superman was actually "Super". And Bosworth was the limpest Lois ever. But ultimately the misguided desire to make Superman Returns a sequel to Superman 2. I think Smallville does a much better job of updating the Superman mythos. The show is on the 9th season and he still hasn't put on the suit. That might be bad, but it shows that the writers have found a way to make Clark interesting as a character in his own right and that he doesn't need the suit on to be. Plus, Smallville has brought in some new fans who would've been turned off by the show if it had been Superboy.
 
GreatScott.JPG
 
Superman's problem is that the general public gets him, but nerds and TPTB that make movies don't get him. The average person can relate to Superman just fine, the average nerds not so much. TPTB I really don't know what their problem is. I guess they are just too stupid . I think their problem is that they can relate to Luthor too much. I mean he is every AA man's dream.

I have zero confidence that they will ever make a decent Superman movie again.
 
In what way don't the 'nerds' get him?

I'd reckon it's that the nerds just want to see Superman kicking-ass and taking names against super-villians. Which in my opinion isn't interesting. But many nerds just want to see Superman chucking tanks at Doomsday.

For me, as I suspect I'm on the side of the average person even though I'm a fan of Superman, we want to see more of a golden age good ol' boyscout Superman standing up for truth, justice and the American way. Not the kicking-ass and taking names chucking tanks Superman, but the Superman pining after Lois Lane (in adult, romantic, ways. I'm looking at you Smallville and Returns) and standing up for American (human) values and protecting us from evil (other than Lex Luthor, I'm looking at you every Superman movie ever made.)
 
In what way don't the 'nerds' get him?

I don't think nerds like his moral fiber. Most nerds are Batman guys. I heard it said more than once that Superman is too noble and good. No gray there. I hear it more than once about how boring he is. I believe most of them like Luthor more than Supes. I mean they can't even separate Luthor from Superman to come up with something new.
 
Ok, I get what both of you are saying.

Maybe I'm just peculiar, but I always saw that as what the masses would want rather than the nerds - tank chucking and moral ambiguity. My personal nerd-position was that I wanted a complex do-gooder whose problems tend more towards his great responsibility and dedication to doing what's right.
 
The thing with Superman Returns was that, I think, audiences were expecting one thing then got another.
:scream:

With all due respect, which part of "PLEASE refrain from commenting on subjects not related to the following OP. If you think that Superman Returns was underrated, or that Singer shouldn't be allowed near the franchise again, terrific - there are dozens of other Supes-related threads in which to discuss such matters" wasn't clear? :shifty:

You say the solution is better writing.
No. That's NOT what I said.

...

In my OP, I set forth a very specific idea in hopes that it might start an interesting discussion about that subject. But only a handful of replies gave any indication of their posters having read further than the words "Superman Returns". To cite but one example, Shivkala practically wrote an essay on the character, but apparently didn't have any interest in replying to the original idea.

To the 2 or 3 of you who actually replied to the OP in some form, you have my thanks. But maybe it's impossible to have a sustained discussion about a particular bit of Supermania without devolving into a free-for-all, at least here.

On with the nerd-analyzing, Bosworth-bashing and Singer-deconstructing, then. Here's a burning question: Brandon Routh: hot or not? :rolleyes:
 
Sorry, but I personally think the best threads are the ones that are allowed to evolve naturally, versus the ones made narrow by one poster's standards.

Your original post referred to Superman's core problem and I posted that there is no consenus on that problem. He's not Batman with his life mission being to avenge his parents.

As far as making it about Kryptonian tech, I think that misses the point of Superman. It's less about where he came from and the problems that creates and more about how his childhood on Earth shaped him. In my opinion, the best Superman stories are the ones that focus more on how that makes him who he is than on how being from Krypton shaped him.
 
^

Giant fucking spiders!!!

Superman is fine on his own...the writing is what needs to get better. I do think Braniac could provide a threat in line with what you were saying...and yes kryptonite has proven dangerous on Smallville, I believe Superman uses his robots to collect most of it so it doesn't fall into the wrong hands or infect people...I am guessing. I think using the Superman Animated series for inspiration as Checkmate suggested should be at the top of the list for any future movies.
 
In what way don't the 'nerds' get him?

I'd reckon it's that the nerds just want to see Superman kicking-ass and taking names against super-villians. Which in my opinion isn't interesting. But many nerds just want to see Superman chucking tanks at Doomsday.

For me, as I suspect I'm on the side of the average person even though I'm a fan of Superman, we want to see more of a golden age good ol' boyscout Superman standing up for truth, justice and the American way. Not the kicking-ass and taking names chucking tanks Superman, but the Superman pining after Lois Lane (in adult, romantic, ways. I'm looking at you Smallville and Returns) and standing up for American (human) values and protecting us from evil (other than Lex Luthor, I'm looking at you every Superman movie ever made.)

There is no reason why you can't have both (the tank would have to be empty, of course). The thing is that Superman wins effortlessly. We know what Superman is capable of, and we know that he's always essentially playing with his foes, holding back, that it would be trivial for him to just go "I'm not left handed" and vaporize his opponent before anyone could blink.

90% of his rogue's gallery are, at best, mosquitoes to him but he holds back because he doesn't want to hurt them. And we know this. And knowing just how badly outmatched they are makes any fight, no matter how impressive it looks, into a curbstomp.

But every once in a while, Superman finds a foe who he has to go all out on, and he makes a little world of cardboard speech to lampshade this.

It isn't that the tank-throwing is necessary. It's that if the most he has to do is stand their while the villains shoot at him and then duck when they throw their empty guns, there isn't much excitement. Having a villain that can actually match him has the potential to make the story more interesting.
 
Sorry, but I personally think the best threads are the ones that are allowed to evolve naturally, versus the ones made narrow by one poster's standards.
I respect that view, but do think that there are limits to that evolution, particularly when the OP requests some. I myself would do my best to honor such an OP request. Besides, Superman is discussed several times per week around these parts, so it's not as though people haven't had a billion opportunities to give their opinion on Superman Returns.

You say "evolution"; I might say "free for all." ;)

Your original post referred to Superman's core problem
Yes, but more by way of an introduction. Maybe I shouldn't have included language that broad. But I think I was pretty clear in wanting to discuss the narrative and thematic ramifications of Kryptonian tech/Kryptonite in general. :)

It's less about where he came from and the problems that creates and more about how his childhood on Earth shaped him.
And my argument is... why can't these go hand in hand? The early seasons of Smallville deal extensively with the problems Kryptonian stuff creates, but the central focus is always how Clark's human upbringing shapes him as a person. So why not expand upon that duality in his adult, Superman-suit phase by introducing Kryptonian-inspired tech, and thus some big effin' robots? :)
 
In my experience big effin' robots sound cool, but detract from the movie. I just saw District 9, which was great until it did a tone shift and became about Wikus in the robot suit.

I never saw Smallville, but personally from what I've heard, the things you mentioned turned me off of the show. Again, I firmly believe Superman is best when character comes first. There's something about big effin' robots on screen which kills characterization.
 
90% of his rogue's gallery are, at best, mosquitoes to him but he holds back because he doesn't want to hurt them.

It seems like all you know about Superman is the Superfriends. If you had even watched Superman Animated series you would know:

Brainaic
Mongul
Parasite
Bizzaro
Darkseid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._MxyzptlkMr Mxyzptlk
Doomsday

All of which should actually kill Superman. And 3 are those are from the Superfriends. So try again.
 
Barinaic, Mongul, Parasite, and Doomsday are mosquitoes to Superman. The only reason they ever come close to harming him is because he holds back too much. Bizzaro isn't really a rogue. He's a little insane, sure, but he means well and is easily redirected. Mr. Mxyzptlk is a goddamn trickster, the sort of reality bender who exists solely to annoy a protagonist but who doesn't mean any real harm (and would be unstoppable if he did).
 
So what's Superman's "problem"?
He's an immigrant, there's no one else like him, and he's thriving for acceptance.

The Jewish immigrant experience is famously the inspiration for Supes. But to take that any further really risks turning the guy into yet another damaged superhero type and between them, Batman & The X-Men have that territory covered.

The real core of Superman is that he's Captain America before there was a Captain America. He fights for Truth, Justice and the American Way. And if filmmakers don't think there's enough of a foreign market for that, and they refuse to make movies for the domestic market (why are we the only nation in the world with filmmakers who won't make movies for us?) then forget making Superman movies altogether.

Either address the core of the character or just forget it. All this half-assery is painful. I don't even care about Supes much (Cap is a much more interesting iteration of the type) but I dislike seeing something being denatured for marketing purposes to the point where it becomes meaningless.
 
I agree with Galactus on the rogues. I would even throw in Metallo. Kryptonite Man too. There's also General Zod and the Kryptonians from the New Krypton stories. With the right weaponry, even Toyman and Intergang might be able to take Supes out. When I think about it, his rogues gallery is underrated. And its perhaps suffered from an overemphasis on Lex Luthor and poor development over the years.
 
Superman doesn't have a problem. When they make a Superman movie, it earns ridiculous amounts of money - simply not as much money as Warner Bros would like. It's Warners management that has a problem.

Superman Returns was an underrated film.
 
Superman doesn't have a problem. When they make a Superman movie, it earns ridiculous amounts of money - simply not as much money as Warner Bros would like. It's Warners management that has a problem.

Superman Returns was an underrated film.

Agreed. :techman:
 
I agree with Galactus on the rogues. I would even throw in Metallo. Kryptonite Man too. There's also General Zod and the Kryptonians from the New Krypton stories. With the right weaponry, even Toyman and Intergang might be able to take Supes out. When I think about it, his rogues gallery is underrated. And its perhaps suffered from an overemphasis on Lex Luthor and poor development over the years.

And what exactly prevents Superman from fusing all of Metallo's joints from twenty miles away using his heat vision?
 
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