Should Americans be required to buy health insurance?

[Arrqh]

I don't understand the confusion. The Pilgrims were fleeing religious persecution and our gov't is pushing the Progressive's religious persecution with UHC. I didn't think I had to connect all the dots but there you go.

If you think that health care reform has anything to do with religion, then I gotta tell ya, there's still a lot of confusion going on.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

If it actually had to do with health care it would cover every person who doesn't have insurance. It doesn't even come close.

Your right. The bill is essentially gimped because of people like you. Congrats! This is pretty much what I was afraid was going to happen from the beginning... to appease people who are so far ideologically gone that they'd rather believe lies about healthcare then recognize the facts, a single payer system had to be taken off the table.

So yeah, it originally had everything to do with healthcare. But people like you sullied the whole thing and now we have this instead. And now your complaining about the results that your ideological kin have created?

Single-payer was never even on the table in this debate because everyone knew it was a non-starter. Maybe we should have started with that and compromised to get the public option. Instead, we won't even get that.

I'm hopeful the end result of this will help people, but I know it's not going to help as much as it could have.

It's going to help. Help raise costs for everyone. Help ration care. Help decrease the level of care. Help some take what is not theirs from those who it belongs to. Help raise the deficit.

Yeah, it's going to help.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

If it actually had to do with health care it would cover every person who doesn't have insurance. It doesn't even come close.

Your right. The bill is essentially gimped because of people like you. Congrats! This is pretty much what I was afraid was going to happen from the beginning... to appease people who are so far ideologically gone that they'd rather believe lies about healthcare then recognize the facts, a single payer system had to be taken off the table.

So yeah, it originally had everything to do with healthcare. But people like you sullied the whole thing and now we have this instead. And now your complaining about the results that your ideological kin have created?

People like me, huh? You used that line on Gertch as well and it doesn't play any better now than it did then. However, if by "people like you" you are referring to fiscally responsible folks who believe in self-determination and a hand up and not a hand out, then maybe I'd agree with you. Is that what you meant?

 

[TheBrew]

The government wasn't forcing something on them? My bad.

Wow, can any statement be more wishy-washy?

Uhuuuh, the government was forcing "something" on them.

I don't understand the confusion. The Pilgrims were fleeing religious persecution and our gov't is pushing the Progressive's religious persecution with UHC. I didn't think I had to connect all the dots but there you go.

Wait, you think that UHC is some kind of religious persecution?


Wait, lemme catch my breath...


*Wipes away tear*

Do you have any kind of argument to back that up?

 

[omegaone]

Why are you americans so crazy when it comes to health care reform ? (or is it just the glen beck crowd thats crazy about it)

 

[Arrqh]

People like me, huh? You used that line on Gertch as well and it doesn't play any better now than it did then. However, if by "people like you" you are referring to fiscally responsible folks who believe in self-determination and a hand up and not a hand out, then maybe I'd agree with you. Is that what you meant?

No. I meant people who care more about their ideology then actually bringing American society up to the same level as the rest of the world. I meant people who care more about fighting the imaginary demon of socialism then actually doing things to reduce costs in proven ways. I meant people who are so myopic that they'd prefer to ignore what health care systems work in the rest of the world out of a misplaced sense of patriotism.

People who are unable to do anything but cling to their outdated and unrealistic political philosophies and as a result are holding the US back from being the great country that it could be. Those are the people who I mean.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

People like me, huh? You used that line on Gertch as well and it doesn't play any better now than it did then. However, if by "people like you" you are referring to fiscally responsible folks who believe in self-determination and a hand up and not a hand out, then maybe I'd agree with you. Is that what you meant?

No. I meant people who care more about their ideology then actually bringing American society up to the same level as the rest of the world. I meant people who care more about fighting the imaginary demon of socialism then actually doing things to reduce costs in proven ways. I meant people who are so myopic that they'd prefer to ignore what health care systems work in the rest of the world out of a misplaced sense of patriotism.

People who are unable to do anything but cling to their outdated and unrealistic political philosophies and as a result are holding the US back from being the great country that it could be. Those are the people who I mean.

Well then you don't mean me. I am a big believer in HCR. I am just not a believer in big government intruding in our lives. THAT is what has failed time and time again.

 

[Arrqh]

I am just not a believer in big government intruding in our lives. THAT is what has failed time and time again.

Which falls under the "ignoring what other countries do" bit. UHC works great in other countries. It would work great in the US too if people would actually recognize it for what it is instead of being afraid of the imaginary socialism boogeyman.

 

[Joker]

I am just not a believer in big government intruding in our lives. THAT is what has failed time and time again.

Which falls under the "ignoring what other countries do" bit. UHC works great in other countries. It would work great in the US too if people would actually recognize it for what it is instead of being afraid of the imaginary socialism boogeyman.

Magic America's super-power is the power to screw pretty much everything up, no matter how simple or obvious, no matter how many other places can do it.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Isn't that what the pilgrims left Europe for?

Uh, no. I'm pretty sure that wasn't it.

The government wasn't forcing something on them? My bad.

Actually, no. The Pilgrims left the Netherlands, which was widely tolerant of their beliefs because they were concerned of the influence of others corrupting their beliefs. That is why they left Europe.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

I am just not a believer in big government intruding in our lives. THAT is what has failed time and time again.

Which falls under the "ignoring what other countries do" bit. UHC works great in other countries. It would work great in the US too if people would actually recognize it for what it is instead of being afraid of the imaginary socialism boogeyman.

That's your opinion or the opinion of those you know. I have friends in the UK and friends in Canada. Virtually everyone I know tells me it's not great. The UK folks in particular tell me they have to have an additional private policy to ensure their care. Not what I want for me or my family here.

Oh, and again, didn't congress exempt themselves from this program? I haven't actually seen this part of the legislation so maybe I'm mistaken. Do you know?

 

[Arrqh]

That's your opinion or the opinion of those you know.

That's the majority opinion of people who live in countries with UHC. It is also the objective fact that health care is cheaper per capita in every country that isn't the US and standards of health are higher in terms of statistics such as life expectancy.

I have friends in the UK and friends in Canada. Virtually everyone I know tells me it's not great. The UK folks in particular tell me they have to have an additional private policy to ensure their care.

This is called "cherry picking." At best your friends represent a minority opinion in those countries and at worst you just ignore the bits you find inconvenient. But if anecdotes are all of a sudden important now, I know Canadians that are afraid to consider moving to the US even if it would be better for their careers because they are afraid of getting denied simple, basic care.

Oh, and again, didn't congress exempt themselves from this program?

This is completely immaterial to any point that I am making. If you'd like to know this, maybe you should actually read the bill that you're complaining about?

 

[Marc]

That's your opinion or the opinion of those you know.

That's the majority opinion of people who live in countries with UHC. It is also the objective fact that health care is cheaper per capita in every country that isn't the US and standards of health are higher in terms of statistics such as life expectancy.

I have friends in the UK and friends in Canada. Virtually everyone I know tells me it's not great. The UK folks in particular tell me they have to have an additional private policy to ensure their care.

This is called "cherry picking." At best your friends represent a minority opinion in those countries and at worst you just ignore the bits you find inconvenient. But if anecdotes are all of a sudden important now, I know Canadians that are afraid to consider moving to the US even if it would be better for their careers because they are afraid of getting denied simple, basic care.

I suspect that lonely squire's friends would share very similar points of view to his own so I'm not sure they would be unbaised in their points of view.

 

[StarryEyed]

I am just not a believer in big government intruding in our lives. THAT is what has failed time and time again.

Which falls under the "ignoring what other countries do" bit. UHC works great in other countries. It would work great in the US too if people would actually recognize it for what it is instead of being afraid of the imaginary socialism boogeyman.

Yes, that's the crux of it.

Capitalism is good - to a point. It's good as long as it serves the commonwealth. When it does not, a different system is called for.

We have never used private enterprise for national defense because it would not serve us as well as a public defense force. It should be the same with health care.

 

[datagal]

Why are you americans so crazy when it comes to health care reform ? (or is it just the glen beck crowd thats crazy about it)

One word: Fear.

 

[datagal]

I have friends in the UK and friends in Canada. Virtually everyone I know tells me it's not great. The UK folks in particular tell me they have to have an additional private policy to ensure their care. Not what I want for me or my family here.

Ask your friends would they give it up and I bet you that they will be very hestitant about that.

 

[Trippy]

Proud Canadian here. Very proud that in my country, we take care of our own.

Employers are required, no matter how big or small the business, to offer extended health care to reduce the costs of dental, optometry, and prescription medication. Our senior population, who have retired have only a 2 dollar co-pay for prescription medication.

We take care of our own.

With the U.S. that is so "Patriotic", why don't you?

 

[TheLonelySquire]

I have friends in the UK and friends in Canada. Virtually everyone I know tells me it's not great. The UK folks in particular tell me they have to have an additional private policy to ensure their care. Not what I want for me or my family here.

Ask your friends would they give it up and I bet you that they will be very hestitant about that.

Maybe, but I bet they have a real policy for a reason too.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Proud Canadian here. Very proud that in my country, we take care of our own.

Employers are required, no matter how big or small the business, to offer extended health care to reduce the costs of dental, optometry, and prescription medication. Our senior population, who have retired have only a 2 dollar co-pay for prescription medication.

We take care of our own.

With the U.S. that is so "Patriotic", why don't you?

Because we believe in a hand up. Not a handout. Self-reliance, small government, etc...

 

[SeerSGB]

Good idea or not for the whole nation, I can't really say. I know if the mandate makes it into law, for my family it's going to push us into a Consumer Credit Counseling service or a bankruptcy; seeing as my wife's employer based coverage has already sent out notices that family coverage will be going up, and spousal premiums will be based on a yearly physical, so we're looking at a 15 to 25% increase-- without the physical on me. Using the current tables, we could be looking at anywhere from $40 to $75 a week in insurance-- depending on the final premium and how the final law looks, plus higher deductibles and copays

We may have to try to get me and the kids on a private carrier if we can get cheaper coverage, but even then I'm not holding out much hope considering past problems with trying to get coverage.