Case in point for a full CGI remastered version. I know Vektor, CTM, and deg3D can do amazing work. I've seen their versions of the original NCC-1701. Perhaps one can be enticed to do 1701-D? Or someone else might be willing to take this shot and redo it?
Star Trek TNG Remastered?
- Thread starter Jiraiya
- Start date
Case in point for a full CGI remastered version. I know Vektor, CTM, and deg3D can do amazing work. I've seen their versions of the original NCC-1701. Perhaps one can be enticed to do 1701-D? Or someone else might be willing to take this shot and redo it?
Film lasts if it is stored in proper conditions. Film studios are notorious for throwing out old film negatives all the time, or leaving them in less than suitable storage conditions. At the moment, the negatives to Star Trek the Next Generation are in good shape, but who knows what will happen to them in the future.
old TV transferred to HD from camera negative
Actually The Twilight Zone a show from 1959-1960 (season 1)
Mr. Laser Beam posted a month ago that The Twilight Zone will be released in high definition on Blu-ray in 2010.
They aren't necessarily making them look like current standards CoveTom they are simply presenting what the Director and Director of Photography captured with light and shadow on the actual film. It was always there. The kinescopes of 1959 were crude technology compared with 2k telecines of today which have a huge dynamic range = more levels of greyscale.
The high end HD telecine machines have 14-bit analog-to-Digital conversion such as Philips SPIRIT 2. This allows for an extended dynamic range which can capture 12-14 f-stops of dynamic range that is represented on the camera negative (especially for outdoor sunny scenes).
Way back in 1959 the crude kinescope technology did not have that kind of dynamic range and only a narrow amount of dynamic range was seen on television. In other words it looked contrastier because the shadows went black and the highlights just went white.
If you see the 2004 Twilight Zone DVD which is made from the HD telecine it looks pretty good. More resolution on a Blu-ray release will allow for a better greyscale range and line sharpness which makes for a better visual presentation.
As with TOS-R we saw that using the original camera negative allowed TOS to look as good as it does visually (photographically) and TNG could look as good as the original medium (35mm film) captured it.
With ENT using a scene from an old TNG episode from May 1990 and retelecining it to HD in 2005 and even cropping it you can see how much better the overall sharpness, depth, and color accuracy are.
The excellent article shows how they did and and has the images side by side to see.
Re-Used TNG Scenes in ENT: "These Are The Voyages"
A comparison and a "preview" of TNG Remastered - by Jörg Hillebrand and Bernd Schneider
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/ent_vs_tng.htm
although as
Actually The Twilight Zone a show from 1959-1960 (season 1)
from The Twilight Zone - The Definitive Edition DVD review
Mr. Laser Beam posted a month ago that The Twilight Zone will be released in high definition on Blu-ray in 2010.
They aren't necessarily making them look like current standards CoveTom they are simply presenting what the Director and Director of Photography captured with light and shadow on the actual film. It was always there. The kinescopes of 1959 were crude technology compared with 2k telecines of today which have a huge dynamic range = more levels of greyscale.
source
The high end HD telecine machines have 14-bit analog-to-Digital conversion such as Philips SPIRIT 2. This allows for an extended dynamic range which can capture 12-14 f-stops of dynamic range that is represented on the camera negative (especially for outdoor sunny scenes).
Way back in 1959 the crude kinescope technology did not have that kind of dynamic range and only a narrow amount of dynamic range was seen on television. In other words it looked contrastier because the shadows went black and the highlights just went white.
If you see the 2004 Twilight Zone DVD which is made from the HD telecine it looks pretty good. More resolution on a Blu-ray release will allow for a better greyscale range and line sharpness which makes for a better visual presentation.
As with TOS-R we saw that using the original camera negative allowed TOS to look as good as it does visually (photographically) and TNG could look as good as the original medium (35mm film) captured it.
With ENT using a scene from an old TNG episode from May 1990 and retelecining it to HD in 2005 and even cropping it you can see how much better the overall sharpness, depth, and color accuracy are.
The excellent article shows how they did and and has the images side by side to see.
Re-Used TNG Scenes in ENT: "These Are The Voyages"
A comparison and a "preview" of TNG Remastered - by Jörg Hillebrand and Bernd Schneider
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/ent_vs_tng.htm
although as
It would appear when you look at the ex-astris-scientia article that when telecined to HD it looks even well, brighter. At least more neutral and less contrasty than the TNG DVDs which makes the ENT-D interiors look more like a hotel.
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Re: old TV transferred to HD from camera negative
But the TATV shot is deceptive, as it has been manipulated to match the scenes filmed in 2005. I imagine they've been graded, so who knows what the "original" shot looked like.
But the TATV shot is deceptive, as it has been manipulated to match the scenes filmed in 2005. I imagine they've been graded, so who knows what the "original" shot looked like.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Since the coming of homevid formats that were higher quality than VHS, studios have been taking tender loving care of every element, now that they know they can squeeze buck after buck out of the film.
If Paramount had realized homevid was going to continue to build back in early 1980, do you think they'd've said 'we don't want 'em' to the vfx companies on TMP who asked 'where do you want the film elements we shot?' after the movie came out? (Trumbull's company kept theirs for a couple years, then THREW THEM OUT due to space issues, and probably also because Paramount stupidly didn't rehire them for TWOK.)
film preservation is no longer a niche concern like the environment has usually been; now it is a market issue. That's why they've done these studies on photochem vs digital storage, to know they're spending on a methodology that guarantees a future for their core elements.
Re: old TV transferred to HD from camera negative
Anytime you do a telecine transfer from a color negative you have to 'grade' it which to non film & TV people that means color, contrast, and brightness tweaking. And because it is the negative it could be 3 stops overexposed and it could still look perfect once finished.
The point it Tomalak that on the TNG 35mm original camera negative is all this "information" that has always been there. The old telecines used and standard definition analog videotape media just never could capture all this "information" from the film itself back then.
Anytime you do a telecine transfer from a color negative you have to 'grade' it which to non film & TV people that means color, contrast, and brightness tweaking. And because it is the negative it could be 3 stops overexposed and it could still look perfect once finished.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Re: old TV transferred to HD from camera negative
I think he is trying to say it could look RICHER. Deeper blacks while keeping the highlights w/o blooming is possible when scanning if you use certain plugins. Greater dynamic range -- lack of which being what makes most CG-originated stuff look bad to me -- PLUS higher resolution really is best of both worlds.
I think he is trying to say it could look RICHER. Deeper blacks while keeping the highlights w/o blooming is possible when scanning if you use certain plugins. Greater dynamic range -- lack of which being what makes most CG-originated stuff look bad to me -- PLUS higher resolution really is best of both worlds.
Re: old TV transferred to HD from camera negative
Perfect? Acceptable, perhaps. It would depend on the film stock, and the process used to correct it, but I'd say a properly exposed shot is always going to look better than one that has been adjusted in post-production, especially if it was originally overexposed by three entire F-stops.
Perfect? Acceptable, perhaps. It would depend on the film stock, and the process used to correct it, but I'd say a properly exposed shot is always going to look better than one that has been adjusted in post-production, especially if it was originally overexposed by three entire F-stops.
ILM model shots in 1987 for Generations
I haven't seen the Blu-ray of ST:Generations but perhaps someone can comment on those two shots and how they look in HD on the Blu-ray considering they were created in 1987?
I think we all could agree both shots were from the 6-foot Ent-D model.
It goes to show what TNG-R could look like in HD for the ENT-D ILM-produced 6-ft model shots at least for Encounter at Farpoint and episodes using the stock shots from what ILM created.
It was also mentioned on the Okuda commentary that the 6-ft. model was also used for new shots in Generations to show the detail as they felt the 4-foot model didn't have enough detail for the big screen.
Who knows what the 2-foot model shots would look like in 1080p...probably a toy model...
This may also be one reason why a CG model of the Ent-D would probably be used for consistency as I've mentioned before.
I'm in agreement with you. I was only using that as an extreme example of how much leeway you have when using film camera negative telecined to HD and are able to control contrast, color, and brightness in post production. In this case how that ENT episode TATV above looked using the TNG original footage for that shot.
I just watched Generations SCE DVD and on the Okuda text commentary he mentions at 51:43. Also the saucer separation at 1:21:14.
The SCE DVD had a lot of dirt and hairs in that shot but it looks good. lots of detail and dynamic range.
I haven't seen the Blu-ray of ST:Generations but perhaps someone can comment on those two shots and how they look in HD on the Blu-ray considering they were created in 1987?
I think we all could agree both shots were from the 6-foot Ent-D model.
It goes to show what TNG-R could look like in HD for the ENT-D ILM-produced 6-ft model shots at least for Encounter at Farpoint and episodes using the stock shots from what ILM created.
It was also mentioned on the Okuda commentary that the 6-ft. model was also used for new shots in Generations to show the detail as they felt the 4-foot model didn't have enough detail for the big screen.
Who knows what the 2-foot model shots would look like in 1080p...probably a toy model...
This may also be one reason why a CG model of the Ent-D would probably be used for consistency as I've mentioned before.
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trevanian
Rear Admiral
Re: old TV transferred to HD from camera negative
Film and video processes are often quite different, especially when you're talking negative film rather than reversal stock.
Plenty of cinematographers regularly overexpose the film a stop or two, then 'print it down' to create a denser negative, one that stands up to being messed with better than a perfectly exposed negative.
Obviously what constitutes well-exposed is subjective, but if the ideal image is the goal, then exposing film at something other than optimum is often exactly what needs to be done.
Video and digital are very much more like reversal film stock, where you have less latitude, and exposure is more critical. Main dif is that while underexposure is death on reversal film, overexposure is death in digital, because the highlights are GONE.
Film and video processes are often quite different, especially when you're talking negative film rather than reversal stock.
Plenty of cinematographers regularly overexpose the film a stop or two, then 'print it down' to create a denser negative, one that stands up to being messed with better than a perfectly exposed negative.
Obviously what constitutes well-exposed is subjective, but if the ideal image is the goal, then exposing film at something other than optimum is often exactly what needs to be done.
Video and digital are very much more like reversal film stock, where you have less latitude, and exposure is more critical. Main dif is that while underexposure is death on reversal film, overexposure is death in digital, because the highlights are GONE.
Re: ILM model shots in 1987 for Generations
They look pretty good to me, except for the fact that the saucer section is slightly transparent during the separation sequence and you can see a starfield through it... for some reason. It's been so long since I've seen "Farpoint," I can't remember if that was in the original shot.
Re: ILM model shots in 1987 for Generations
I thought it was decent as well, except that the color of the Enterprise is also a little different (browner maybe?) than the other, newer shots.
I thought it was decent as well, except that the color of the Enterprise is also a little different (browner maybe?) than the other, newer shots.
For those looking for a completist discussion in this TNG series being remastered to HD other than this thread:
there are two other threads you may want to read:
If STNG were remastered...
last post September 11, 2008.
How long until TNG: Remastered?
last post February 6, 2008.
there are two other threads you may want to read:
If STNG were remastered...
last post September 11, 2008.
How long until TNG: Remastered?
last post February 6, 2008.
deleted scenes
On the ENT DVDs there are deleted scenes with unfinished special effects and production audio.
It shows a little more how Star Trek in 2000s was shot for visual effects with blue/green screens as well as that there were additional scenes shot that were deleted from the episode.
Were there scenes shot but deleted from TNG ?
If anyone has read scripts could you give a few examples of deleted scenes and which episodes?
No gag reels/mashups please?
I highly doubt they are going to bother with conforming any deleted scenes from a new HD telecine but could we expect to see rough cuts of deleted scenes if only from 1" analog or 3/4" videotape original edited rough cuts ?
On the ENT DVDs there are deleted scenes with unfinished special effects and production audio.
It shows a little more how Star Trek in 2000s was shot for visual effects with blue/green screens as well as that there were additional scenes shot that were deleted from the episode.
Were there scenes shot but deleted from TNG ?
If anyone has read scripts could you give a few examples of deleted scenes and which episodes?
No gag reels/mashups please?
I highly doubt they are going to bother with conforming any deleted scenes from a new HD telecine but could we expect to see rough cuts of deleted scenes if only from 1" analog or 3/4" videotape original edited rough cuts ?
Re: deleted scenes
Tried to find the latest on this, its from early AUG 2010: Good news: Still being worked on...Bad news: its problematic...
http://trekmovie.com/2010/08/09/veg...-pizza-slicer-kelvin-salt-pepper-shaker-more/
VegasCon Star Trek Products Panel: TNG on Blu-ray ‘Being Discussed’ + New Enterprise Pizza Slicer, Kelvin Salt & Pepper Shaker + more August 9, 2010
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Conventions/Events/Attractions, DVD/Blu-ray, Merchandise, TNG , trackback
The CBS Consumer Products presentation at the Star Trek con in Las Vegas mostly covered previously reported stuff, but there were a few new tidbits for Trek merchandise, like the USS Enterprise Pizza slicer. But the most interesting bit of information came from a response to a fan question about TNG on Blu-ray. See below for a breakdown of what is to come from CBS.
Next Gen on Blu-ray?
All three seasons of the originalStar Trek are now available in HD, but what about TNG? In a response to a question about TNG on Blu-ray, CBS Consumer Products VP John Van Citters told the crowd in Las Vegas that releasing Star Trek: The Next Generation on Blu-ray was much more "problematic" than the original Star Trek, due to how the TNG original effects shots were composited, and how that makes the transfer to HD "incredibly difficult without making them look awful." However, he also said that there is "a lot of conversations going on" within CBS on how to convert TNG to HD, and Van Citters expressed optimism noting "It is being worked on and I expect it will happen, it is just a technical challenge."
Following his talk, I confirmed with Van Citters that even though he is optimistic that the challenges will be met, as of now there is no specific plan or budget for the project within CBS. So this is still something that is a long-term project.
Tried to find the latest on this, its from early AUG 2010: Good news: Still being worked on...Bad news: its problematic...
http://trekmovie.com/2010/08/09/veg...-pizza-slicer-kelvin-salt-pepper-shaker-more/
VegasCon Star Trek Products Panel: TNG on Blu-ray ‘Being Discussed’ + New Enterprise Pizza Slicer, Kelvin Salt & Pepper Shaker + more August 9, 2010
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Conventions/Events/Attractions, DVD/Blu-ray, Merchandise, TNG , trackback
The CBS Consumer Products presentation at the Star Trek con in Las Vegas mostly covered previously reported stuff, but there were a few new tidbits for Trek merchandise, like the USS Enterprise Pizza slicer. But the most interesting bit of information came from a response to a fan question about TNG on Blu-ray. See below for a breakdown of what is to come from CBS.
Next Gen on Blu-ray?
All three seasons of the originalStar Trek are now available in HD, but what about TNG? In a response to a question about TNG on Blu-ray, CBS Consumer Products VP John Van Citters told the crowd in Las Vegas that releasing Star Trek: The Next Generation on Blu-ray was much more "problematic" than the original Star Trek, due to how the TNG original effects shots were composited, and how that makes the transfer to HD "incredibly difficult without making them look awful." However, he also said that there is "a lot of conversations going on" within CBS on how to convert TNG to HD, and Van Citters expressed optimism noting "It is being worked on and I expect it will happen, it is just a technical challenge."
Following his talk, I confirmed with Van Citters that even though he is optimistic that the challenges will be met, as of now there is no specific plan or budget for the project within CBS. So this is still something that is a long-term project.
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