I'm talking about the TV series. The TV credits show Stewart and Frakes first, and then the rest of the cast in alphabetical order.
Which is what I said. Spiner even switched credit positions with Frakes, IIRC, to reflect this.
Any mention of Data in post-Nemesis novels?
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I'm talking about the TV series. The TV credits show Stewart and Frakes first, and then the rest of the cast in alphabetical order.
Okay, then sorry, I didn't get that you refered to the movies and not to the series when saying that Frakes was the second lead.
Okay, then sorry, I didn't get that you refered to the movies and not to the series when saying that Frakes was the second lead.
He was referring to the series when saying that Frakes was the second lead.
Actually I think Kirk is the most altered character, because he's written based on the hotheaded, maverick reputation that Kirk earned in the movie era and has little in common with the no-nonsense soldier-philosopher of the first season or two of TOS.
Bad writing?
He was referring to the series when saying that Frakes was the second lead.
Sorry, late night/early morning when I posted that - I wrote exactly the opposite of what I wanted to write (because this time, I did get what Therin wanted to say... *sighs). *g* Actually, when I skimmed through the thread right now, I just wondered myself what I'd written and hoped no one else had caught it yet - but, too late to edit now.
It's funny how perceptions differ.
I still have troubles reconciling nuSpock with Spock Prime. Perhaps it's just Quinto that's throwing me off - every time I see him I immediately think of psycho Sylar, after all. *g* He did a really good job with Spock, the only really creepy scene was the one with Uhura in the transporter room - to me, given the private person Spock always has been, that was just a no go. Nothing against the relationship per se, but I'd never see Spock acting that way in public. Kirk OTOH never did anything else but snog anything on two feet with a short skirt. Granted, nuKirk was more impulsive, more hotheaded - but he never got tempered down by a career in starfleet before gaining command. Lacking a male authoritative figure and missing out on the "ordinary" climb up the chain command, I'd say that's enough explanation for the Kirk we saw in the movie.
Ironic, given that Quinto is the one who bears the most striking resemblance to the original actor. I can't imagine a better choice for a recast young Spock.
Well, Uhura was clearly the initiator there, and in their interactions in general. All Spock was doing was accepting her advances.
That's just the kind of inaccurate stereotype of Kirk that I'm talking about. Look at the first season in particular and you'll see that just the opposite is true. In "The Corbomite Maneuver," he was unhappy being assigned a female yeoman. In "Mudd's Women," he was the only crewman other than Spock who wasn't under the women's spell, because he was such a stiff, disciplined, married-to-his-ship type. In "The Enemy Within," it was his unleashed darker side that went after Rand, something the intact Kirk never even contemplated; in "Miri," Rand stated outright that he never noticed her legs even though she wanted him to. In "Dagger of the Mind," he was embarrassed when reminded of his mild flirtations with Helen Noel at the Christmas party, and it wasn't until he was brainwashed into thinking he loved her that he made any advances. And he shook off that brainwashing with remarkable ease, and within moments was callously sending Helen into a maintenance shaft with deadly high-voltage lines. When he did undertake any kind of seduction, as in "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" or "The Conscience of the King," it was a calculated maneuver to achieve his goals. His actual relationships with women -- Ruth, Edith -- were generally shown as deeply loving and devoted.
It's true that in the later seasons, Kirk began to become more like the kind of serial womanizer that just about every '60s TV hero was expected to be, but compared to those other '60s heroes, he was still relatively sedate when it came to womanizing. Then in the animated series, he had one or two slight flirtations at best. In the movie era, first he turned out to have a son with an old flame from decades before; then he totally failed to make a romantic impression on a 20th-century cetacean biologist; then he had a minor, abortive flirtation with a Chameloid who was just stringing him along. Even in the movie Shatner directed, Kirk didn't get any action with the opposite sex, unless you count a brief fight with a three-breasted cat lady.
So the whole "Kirk as inveterate womanizer" thing is more stereotype than truth, and that's my whole point about the Abrams version of Kirk. He's like what people expect Kirk to be, but he's not much like the original Kirk actually was.
Oh, I'm not claiming that the differences lack justification. I'm just pointing out that there is a real, substantive difference between the Kirks. Of all the characters, he's the one who's changed the most. Even the way he speaks is different.
That's a weird character arc Kirk went through between TOS and the movies.
Good argument you're making here. Back when the new movie came out, I rewatched many TOS-episodes, including the majority of season 1 - and I didn't get the impression back then that season 1's Kirk was a bit more restrained. While he might not have got any real action there were still looks at and remarks about women that had me rolling my eyes... but I guess, that's another difference in perception. *g*
Hm, did he really have to do so in the transporter room? I'm not arguing against the scene in the turbolift - and I wouldn't have said anything against a hug while Kirk was still talking with Scotty. But something so drawn out when everything clearly was ready for transport?
I actually addressed this to some degree in A Time for War, a Time for Peace when Captain Go is conducting an inspection of the Enterprise and its crew, and she's interviewing Data. Here's the exchange following her showing Data his confrontation with Hobson in "Redemption Part 2":
"You snapped at Lieutenant Commander Hobson."
"Yes. Mr. Hobson was questioning my orders and obstructing our attempts to expose the cloaked Romulan ships. I have observed that in similar situations, the commanding officers under whom I have served will often speak in that tone in order to make their displeasure clear and to goad their subordinates into action."
"Yes, but didn't those commanding officers do so out of frustration and anger?"
Data considered the point. "I did not feel anger, but my efforts to expose the Romulan fleet were being frustrated."
Go curled half her mouth in a smirk. "Now you're piddling over semantics."
"The choice of the word 'frustration' was yours, Captain."
"True." Go picked up her other padd and made more notes. "You've given me a great deal more food for thought than I was expecting from this interview, Mr. Data. However, for what it's worth, you've made it clear to me at least that you're going to make a fine first officer."
"Thank you, Captain."
Go stared at him. "Okay, that sounded like a prideful expression of gratitude. But you don't feel pride."
"I do, however, recognize the praise for what it is, Captain."
Before Data could continue the thought, Go said, "And you tailored your reaction to how you've observed others reacting to similar praise?"
"Yes, Captain."
Shaking her head, Go said, "You remind me of my daughter. My husband and I always make it a point to be polite around her. She's growing up to be the most well-mannered child in her class. Response to stimulus."
on the abrams kirk issue..
keep in mind that abrams kirk is younger then the one we see in tos.
it is very possible prime line kirk was similar to this before say somehting like the farragutt incident happened.
which bought about the more thoughtful kirk we hear gary mitchell descirbed.
as the movie goes on you can see the abrams kirk change and mature due to the events that he is going through and witnessing.
and i think from kirk's reaction what ever went down with helen noel was more then a mild flirtation.
as far as putting her in danger..we alway saw that kirk that captain could use anyone if it ment saving a greater number of people.
really part of kirk's rep may have started with lenore in how he romanced her to find out about kronos.
though even he stated that it did indeed start that way but in the end he had wanted it to be more.
keep in mind that abrams kirk is younger then the one we see in tos.
it is very possible prime line kirk was similar to this before say somehting like the farragutt incident happened.
which bought about the more thoughtful kirk we hear gary mitchell descirbed.
as the movie goes on you can see the abrams kirk change and mature due to the events that he is going through and witnessing.
and i think from kirk's reaction what ever went down with helen noel was more then a mild flirtation.
as far as putting her in danger..we alway saw that kirk that captain could use anyone if it ment saving a greater number of people.
really part of kirk's rep may have started with lenore in how he romanced her to find out about kronos.
though even he stated that it did indeed start that way but in the end he had wanted it to be more.
^Again... I'm not saying I'm unaware of the explanations for the differences between the two Kirks. I think the differences make sense in context. My only point is that there is a difference -- that if people assume the original Kirk was no different from this Kirk, then they're wrong, because they're buying into a stereotype that doesn't fit the actual facts. Kirk's reputation is as an impulsive, womanizing renegade, but the way the character was originally conceived and portrayed was as a disciplined, intellectual military man who was capable of deep, sincere devotion to women but rarely had the luxury to pursue relationships.
We were told in dialogue exactly what it was and what it wasn't:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/11.htm
So in real life, it didn't go beyond dancing and talking -- and yet Kirk was embarrassed about it afterwards. What confuses people is that Helen created a fantasy in Kirk's mind of sweeping her off her feet and making love to her, and fans often misremember that as something that actually happened -- even though the whole point of the scene was that it didn't happen, that it was so wildly different from reality that they'd be sure the neural neutralizer was effective at altering people's minds.
What matters to my point is the context. He'd been programmed to be obsessively in love with Helen, and yet it was easy for him to throw off that programming and return to no-nonsense command mode -- just as he was the one human crewmember who was immune to Mudd's women's seduction and the one person able to shake off the Omicron Ceti III spores, and just as he was able to overcome the Psi 2000 virus and Elaan's love-potion tears by remembering his duty. Kirk was consistently written, especially in the first season, as a man so professional, driven, and serious that he was able to resist desire when no one else could. That's the precise opposite of the stereotype of Kirk as some kind of hormone-crazed man-child ruled by lust above all.
Which, again, supports my point. Even though he was using her, he felt something for her. The stereotypical womanizer is someone who uses and discards women without a thought. Kirk Prime cared deeply for women -- it wasn't shallow to him.
(Although given that "I was just pretending at first but then I wanted it to be more" is pretty much an obligatory line in virtually any TV story where one character feigns romantic interest in another, I don't think one can read too much into any particular use of it.)
We were told in dialogue exactly what it was and what it wasn't:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/11.htm
So in real life, it didn't go beyond dancing and talking -- and yet Kirk was embarrassed about it afterwards. What confuses people is that Helen created a fantasy in Kirk's mind of sweeping her off her feet and making love to her, and fans often misremember that as something that actually happened -- even though the whole point of the scene was that it didn't happen, that it was so wildly different from reality that they'd be sure the neural neutralizer was effective at altering people's minds.
What matters to my point is the context. He'd been programmed to be obsessively in love with Helen, and yet it was easy for him to throw off that programming and return to no-nonsense command mode -- just as he was the one human crewmember who was immune to Mudd's women's seduction and the one person able to shake off the Omicron Ceti III spores, and just as he was able to overcome the Psi 2000 virus and Elaan's love-potion tears by remembering his duty. Kirk was consistently written, especially in the first season, as a man so professional, driven, and serious that he was able to resist desire when no one else could. That's the precise opposite of the stereotype of Kirk as some kind of hormone-crazed man-child ruled by lust above all.
Which, again, supports my point. Even though he was using her, he felt something for her. The stereotypical womanizer is someone who uses and discards women without a thought. Kirk Prime cared deeply for women -- it wasn't shallow to him.
(Although given that "I was just pretending at first but then I wanted it to be more" is pretty much an obligatory line in virtually any TV story where one character feigns romantic interest in another, I don't think one can read too much into any particular use of it.)
Just to step back a few paces (although not *quite* on topic) Data is dead. Yes, we miss him, but that's all part of loving him too - to miss him now that he has gone. If Data is brought back, why not just bring everyone back? Bring back Khan, bring back Yar, bring back Jadzia, bring back Shinzon, bring back everyone. It's only fair. So what if it makes the whole of Star Trek feel meaningless? At least we get our characters back, right? 
I'm all for doing something with B4, whatever comes naturally to the character - although enrolling him in Starfleet and having him serve on a starship would be a completely unoriginal concept. Having Data come back to life through him would just be regurgitating old ideas. I would hope the authors (and the readers) are better than that.
I love Data, but I love good, original storytelling even more, and I hope Data never returns.
I'm all for doing something with B4, whatever comes naturally to the character - although enrolling him in Starfleet and having him serve on a starship would be a completely unoriginal concept. Having Data come back to life through him would just be regurgitating old ideas. I would hope the authors (and the readers) are better than that.
I love Data, but I love good, original storytelling even more, and I hope Data never returns.
Just not Janeway. Please, not Janeway.
Only relative to how unlike the others look to the orginal actors in that he had the benefit of make-up and prosthetics.
Lol!
But I'm worried people aren't taking my comment in the sarcastic tone in which it was meant
No, even without that. Quinto bears a startling resemblance to the young Nimoy. It's been widely commented on. People were noticing it well before he was cast as Spock, and it was a factor in his getting cast, so it's got nothing to do with how he looks in the ears and the haircut.
