DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

[Kegg]

Sorry, I'm still a bit snobby about science. My experience in secondary school was that the smartest people chose sciences, geography (the lazy man's science ) or languages in the Leaving, while all the idiots went with the business subjects. I knew the financial crisis was coming well in advance of everyone else.

Funny, barely passed business or languages also. Strength was humanities and all - English, History, Classics, Music, the like.

The writing in the episode is good, and that speech is one of the highlights of the whole series, but I just can't get over how much I dislike Paul Baillargeon's score.

Haven't seen the episode in years so I don't remember the score at all, so that opinion might change. Only really good DS9 score I can think of from this period would be the building tension of "In the Pale Moonlight", which had better smackdown whatever VOY and B5 episodes dare challenge it.

STWOM is good, and I'd rate it higher if something had come of it, but for the next two and a bit years Shmully's feelings for Seven are used almost exclusively as comic relief, and that hurts the episode for me. It also that that annoying subplot where Neelix babysits a drunk.

Point on Neelix, but how the writers botched D/7 (culminating, of course, in "Renaissance Man") really undescores how well it was served by this episode for me.

 

[TheGodBen]

Funny, my strengths where English...

Sorry, I'm just enjoying the irony there.

EDIT: Bugger, you fixed it.

"What would Socrates say if he was on TV today?"

I don't know, but I'd imagine it would be in ancient Greek.

"What's going on? Why do I have this small black thing clipped to my robe? Why did that woman put all that power on my face? How is the sun shining indoors?"

Just don't ask me what the hell is on the elemental table, or what the elemental table is, exactly (it's something scientists use for their magic incantations, right?). Or to do long division, for that matter.

What about polynomial long division? That's hours of fun. Minus the fun.

Haven't seen the episode in years so I don't remember the score at all, so that opinion might change. Only really good DS9 score I can think of from this period would be the building tension of "In the Pale Moonlight", which had better smackdown whatever VOY and B5 episodes dare challenge it.

Most people like the score of AR-558, it just seems to be me that dislikes it. As for Pale Moonlight, that was scored by David Bell who many people dislike for his trademark droning sound, but I loved his work on DS9. I think that his scores were the signature pieces of the Dominion War and gave DS9 its own sound in episodes like Rocks and Shoals, Sacrifice of Angels, Statistical Probabilities, Treachery Faith and the Great River, Taking Into the Wind and others. Unfortunately he used many of the same musical ideas on Voyager where I felt they didn't work, so I don't like his work there. But on DS9 I'd rank the composers like this: Bell > McCarthy > Chattaway > Baillargeon.

Point on Neelix, but how the writers botched D/7 (culminating, of course, in "Renaissance Man") really undescores how well it was served by this episode for me.

I think that D/7 had great chemistry but I don't think they should have hooked up, it would have been better if Shmully had a Crossfire moment where he learned to put his feelings behind him. But using the most sympathetic character on the show's emotional turmoil as comedy was all wrong, so I don't think they should have had him fall for her at all.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

I'm not the world's greatest "shipper" anyway, but I never had much interest in D/7, or really Anyone/7. I still think Denara Pel ought to have stayed on as the Doctor's significant other/colleague.

Sykonee, re this "special occasion", is this something to do with the mid-point of the show? But, then again, Season 1 was only 19 episodes, so... I'm confused!

 

[Kegg]

Funny, my strengths where English...

Sorry, I'm just enjoying the irony there.

EDIT: Bugger, you fixed it.

Yup. My English triumphed over my adversity, which is a dim, foggy notion of how grammar and sentence structure works (like the elemental table, magic is involved.)

That and I figured it was a tad rambling and self-indulgent, which is typical of everything I write.

I don't know, but I'd imagine it would be in ancient Greek.

Koine Greek, at least, so maybe some students would get it. Heaven forbid we got Herodotus and his goddamn Asian Minor Greek.

Anyway, the humour came from it being a key question for Religious Education. It would have made sense in the Classical Studies exam, maybe (not that Greek philosophy was taught much), but this would be like a speculative chemistry question in a physics exam, or asking you to write a French poem for Spanish. It just sticks out in my mind because I want to know what in god's name the question writer was thinking when they actually came up with that, but then, I did enter that course with no preparation and on a whim (and still aced it, for some reason. A whim > twelve years of Irish. Ouch.)

But on DS9 I'd rank the composers like this: Bell > McCarthy > Chattaway > Baillargeon.

Yeah, there's just something Bell was able to do, even within the constraints of the post-TNG S4 Berman era, that was rather memorable. It's his use of strings, IMHO. Was never a fan of McCarthy, though his DS9 theme is what I'd consider his best work for Trek.

if Shmully had a Crossfire moment where he learned to put his feelings behind him. But using the most sympathetic character on the show's emotional turmoil as comedy was all wrong, so I don't think they should have had him fall for her at all.

Yeah, agreed, but in "Something..." it's bittersweet, and hence works. The odder argument (I've seen this) is people who consider that episode a ripoff of "Lifesigns", the episode where he hooks up with the Vidiian Doctor. I partly see the point - romance episode for the Doctor which ends with a nice little moment in the French diner - but it's really, really stretching it.

Oh well. Changing tack here, "The Changing Face of Evil" just felt a trifle too melodramatic at the time - I just felt that the DS9 writers had realised the Dominion had lost their edge and menace, and rather than portray a war where one side may be unequivocally losing, they needed to artificially ratchet up the tension by inserting a new alien race, who proceed to kick ass. It was oh, so very Lensman, and DS9 should be above E.E. Doc Smith shenangians, I say.

 

[Kai Winn]

i greatly disliked the The Siege of AR-558. star trek is much about how humans have advanced their ethics, conquered hunger, diseases, social divides, even greed. and here we are again, it's still perfectly agreeable to throw away hundreds of lives for the greater good, which is a cellphone tower in outer space. the sacrifice of live is being justified, even glorified.

 

[TheGodBen]

That and I figured it was a tad rambling and self-indulgent, which is typical of everything I write.

Don't let that hold you back, I managed over 100,000 views from it.

Yeah, there's just something Bell was able to do, even within the constraints of the post-TNG S4 Berman era, that was rather memorable. It's his use of strings, IMHO. Was never a fan of McCarthy, though his DS9 theme is what I'd consider his best work for Trek.

I think that McCarthy was good but Berman effectively neutered him. Some of his early work on TNG was great, but there he was overshadowed by Ron Jones, and when the reigns were finally lifted in the later seasons of Enterprise he had trouble getting back into the groove of things. I'm a big fan of his score for Generations though, it may not have been as epic as some of the other movie scores, but I think he struck the right balance of adventure and emotion for what Picard was going through in that movie.

And you're quite right in saying that his theme for DS9 was his best work on Trek.

Yeah, agreed, but in "Something..." it's bittersweet, and hence works. The odder argument (I've seen this) is people who consider that episode a ripoff of "Lifesigns", the episode where he hooks up with the Vidiian Doctor. I partly see the point - romance episode for the Doctor which ends with a nice little moment in the French diner - but it's really, really stretching it.

I don't see it either. Lifesigns was one of those "loved and lost" stories whereas STWOM was about unrequited love. They're not the same thing at all as far as I'm concerned.

Oh well. Changing tack here, "The Changing Face of Evil" just felt a trifle too melodramatic at the time - I just felt that the DS9 writers had realised the Dominion had lost their edge and menace, and rather than portray a war where one side may be unequivocally losing, they needed to artificially ratchet up the tension by inserting a new alien race, who proceed to kick ass. It was oh, so very Lensman, and DS9 should be above E.E. Doc Smith shenangians, I say.

It worked for me, but that's because I see the Breen more as a catalyst for Damar's rebellion against the Dominion than as a foe for the Federation. They also brought us the story about Worf challenging Gowron and the irony of Kira teaching Cardassians how to be terrorists. So even though the Breen are faceless goons that aren't interesting in their own right, their effect on the established order of things is what made the final chapter good for me.

i greatly disliked the The Siege of AR-558. star trek is much about how humans have advanced their ethics, conquered hunger, diseases, social divides, even greed. and here we are again, it's still perfectly agreeable to throw away hundreds of lives for the greater good, which is a cellphone tower in outer space. the sacrifice of live is being justified, even glorified.

What would you have them do, give the communication post back to the Dominion and potentially extend the war by several months, or even years? Millions more would die that way, and many of them could be civilians. Starfleet wasn't fighting for AR-558 because they enjoyed killing Dominion troops, they were doing it to try and save lives on both sides of the war in the long run.

I'll let Ira Behr explain it:

A lot of people didn't want us to do the episode, and a lot of people were unhappy it was being developed. But I felt that we needed to do it. War sucks. War is intolerable. War is painful, and good people die. You win, but you still lose. And we needed to show that as uncompromisingly as possible. War isn't just exploding ships and special effects.

People died gruesome deaths in the battles in That Way of the Warrior, Call to Arms and Sacrifice of Angels, but nobody cared because we were all too focused on how awesome it looked. So I'm very glad this episode exists not to glorify war, as you claimed, but to show us why we must do everything we can to prevent war.

 

[Sykonee]

Goodness, how this thread has taken a life of its own! It's been nearly four pages since I did the last Week; DS9's first season took a mere five pages to wrap up.

Sykonee, re this "special occasion", is this something to do with the mid-point of the show? But, then again, Season 1 was only 19 episodes, so... I'm confused!

Indeed right. Well, actually, I don't know if Return To Grace is the Absolute Middle of DS9 (oh God, I still have some Calculus terminology stuck in my head), but it's the middle episode of the middle season, which is good enough for me. That means we're about half-way done! But, considering folks are making predictions that are four years away tells me I better get crackin' on this again. So...

Week 19: (Ending 02.05.96)
B5 - Voices Of Authority (Airdate 02.01.96)
DS9 - Return To Grace (Airdate 02.05.96)
VOY - Meld (Airdate 02.05.96)

After all those stand-alones, B5 comes back with more arc stuff -clever, heading into Feb Sweeps and all. However, despite starting out as though we were going to get a big, rollicking adventure in finding the First Ones, VoA turns somewhat straight-forward and predictable. It's entertaining and all, just not exactly gripping. It feels like a lot of stuff is being set up for future episodes, especially so considering the Clarke Conspiracy's now out in the open.

DS9 seems to be the same as well, although more heavy on the character stuff than the arc stuff. It's got the Klingons involved again (hey, remember they were the bad guys now?), the continuing story of Dukat's life, and, um... hmm, that's about it, really. Hey, it's strong character stuff, and shakes up the DS9 universe a little bit more, which is always good. Still, it lacks something the viewer can feel properly attached to, and it's primarily because it's a Dukat episode, who's still a supporting character at this point. There does seem to be the promise of him being more of a player in future shows though, since he now has a 'proper' personal connection to Kira.

It's surprising, then, that VOY actually comes off better than either show, especially so since there isn't any apparent arc stuff. Mind, we've sort of come to expect that from VOY at this point, so you only hope that a stand-alone episode is good. If you're one for a gripping episode of psychological tension and trauma, then you're in for a treat. If not, well, you're still in for a treat. Alright, so it isn't much of a stretch to see Dourif as a mentally-instable killer -hell, we 'just' saw him in a similar role in the last episode of B5 (though technically that was 'two months' ago )- but he pulls it off so well, why should we complain? It's the crux of what happens to Tuvok, though, that's fascinating. We seldom get the opportunity to see Vulcans lose all control of their emotions in such the way we see here, and Russ pulls it off excellently.

Who wins? VOY, by a bit of a squeaker over DS9. B5 was good too, but too focused on moving plot without it being overly eventful, and lacking focus on its characters to make up for it (though Ivanova was plenty entertaining). DS9 seemed to be in the middle of these two, doing a Character Episode within an Arc Episode without going full-out with an Event Episode. VOY, in simply being a strong Character Episode, is able to effectively hold your attention with a striking dilemma.

But we're all winners for such a solid week of TV.

Weekly Winner
VOY

Next:
DS9 - Sons Of Mogh
VOY - Dreadnought
B5 - Dust To Dust

 

[Harvey]

Meld is particularly good, especially for Star Trek: Voyager. And, it eventually does become a seed in the overarching Seska-arc of season two, but I assume you already know that.

Voices of Authority does what it needs to do, but the most memorable thing about it is the music, which will be adapted into the season five theme.

As for the true mid-point of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, I suspect the shortened length of the first season fouls up the math a little bit there. But, close enough.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Not sure if I've ever seen Meld. I liked Suder in Basics though, so I'll have to check it out at some point. I enjoyed both Voices of Authority and Return to Grace a lot. The B5 episode is both a lot of fun and significant to the arc (very significant). I like the little Zack Allen arc they've got going on as well. I don't really have any complaints about the episode. I'd give DS9 the edge this week, however. Perhaps the main reason why I like RtG is that it actually does something interesting with the plot developments introduced in The Way of the Warrior. Alas, this won't happen again till the season finale, but I can hardly take that out on this episode. It was interesting to see Kira and Dukat forced by circumstances to be allies and I really like the guerrilla Dukat introduced in this episode. Also, it features Ziyal, who is turning out to be one of my favourite recurring characters. The best episode of the middle part of Season 4.

 

[Sykonee]

Meld is particularly good, especially for Star Trek: Voyager. And, it eventually does become a seed in the overarching Seska-arc of season two, but I assume you already know that.

Well, I know that, but 'we' didn't back then, now did we.

 

[Tomalak]

Season 4 was strong for the first 2/3, so that might be a battle, but the season went off the rails for the final third and has only 1 clear victory for Voyager: Living Witness v The Rekoning.

I like Living Witness, I think it's probably one of the better Voyager episodes, but I must be one of the only people who loves The Reckoning. I was always a fan of the Prophets-Pah Wraiths stories, and anything that gives Jake something to do is fine by me. The best part is Louise Fletcher. For me, Winn was one of DS9's best characters, and I think her character arc is fantastic. What's her motivation here? Is she showing compassion by saving Jake and Kira, something Sisko couldn't do, or could she simply not stand the Emissary's piety as he showed up the Kai once again? I love it.

 

[Harvey]

Meld is particularly good, especially for Star Trek: Voyager. And, it eventually does become a seed in the overarching Seska-arc of season two, but I assume you already know that.

Well, I know that, but 'we' didn't back then, now did we.

Well, back then 'we' had some faith left that a character like Suder would not be forgotten about at the end of the episode. Like, say, the entire Equinox crew. Or poor Joe Carey. Oh, happier days.

But, yes.

 

[Kegg]

I had assumed Suder would be forgotten about. I also thought he was sort of an conveinent contrivance - having abandoned the idea of using the Maquis as any sort of real identity, the fact they don't background check much has provided us with an easy way to slip in traitors - like Seska - and lunatics - like Suder - who typically would never be part of a regular crew.

Besides, Harvey, what about the Borg baby? One scene with Janeway holding it and it's never seen again. I remember the joking on this forum that Janeway probably ate it. Good days.

All that said, yeah, "Meld", one of VOY's best. Dourif gets a lot of justified props here, but Tim Russ really was fantastic here as Tuvok - easily VOY's most underutilised actor.

 

[Harvey]

The Borg baby was several seasons later, though, when we were deep into the territory of abandoning nearly all recurring members of the crew. "Meld" is in season two, when guys like Hogan and Samantha Wildman were still around, an actual arc (Seska) was still going on, and people like Joe Carey weren't a long-distant memory.

Later on, any arc was limited to a few episodes, the recurring cast was mostly forgotten (which is why I brought up the poor Equinox crew), and the show was barely living up to its premise.

 

[Kegg]

The Borg baby was several seasons later, though, when we were deep into the territory of abandoning nearly all recurring members of the crew.

Granted, but it was jarring because the Borg children were by themselves a rare example of an arc in VOY at that point. They're established, remain mostly consistent, and the fates of all of them make sense in the end. 'Sept for the baby who vanishes like that.

 

[Harvey]

That's true. Icheb ends up being the rare recurring character who continues to be around in the later seasons. Still, I'd argue that the earlier seasons (mainly seasons 1-3) were the strongest when it came to continuity, involving arcs and recurring characters. At the time, it wasn't hard to believe that an opened-ended story like Meld would be revisited down the line.

Honestly, the writers could have just killed the damned baby, milked it for some sentimentality, and moved on. But they didn't even go that far.

 

[Tomalak]

The baby was always going to be unsustainable, so either you don't introduce it in the first place, or you kill it off in the episode.

 

[Kegg]

Or, failing that, when they wrote the kids beside Icheb off the episode, a line about them taking the baby with them (and other references to the baby in dialogue - maybe Ensign Nobody is taking care of it.)

But, yeah. VOY took simply the most thoughtless, nonsensical approach, because hey, why not?

 

[DevilEyes]

You're not at the middle of the show yet. Since DS9 has 176 episodes (counting the two-parters as two episodes and three-parter as three episodes), the actual middle of the show is episode 88, i.e. 4.16 - Bar Association.

 

[Kai Winn]

But we're all winners for such a solid week of TV.

Weekly Winner
VOY

Next:
DS9 - Sons Of Mogh
VOY - Dreadnought
B5 - Dust To Dust

wow. although i favour voyager in almost any case, i didn't believe meld would make it, none of my favourites. i thought dreadnought is a safe bet for voy again, but when i looked the b5 episode up, i was in for a shock. that's the story of g'kars revelation, probably the key episode of the whole of b5, and its single finest one. rotten luck for voy, dreadnought beats worf's dysfunctional family any time. never mind, death wish is coming up.