The Scarlet Witch

[Silvercrest]

So she gets back with Viz and they find a doner. What's Simon up to these days?

Yeah, Simon! Give 'er the old "ion stream"!

They don't call him Wonder Man for nothing, you know....

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Why are Marvel writers always doing such awful things to this poor character?

Ever read Women in Refrigerators by Gail Simone?

Sometimes bad people kill women.

I know we'd all love to live in a world where every woman is an invulnerable powerhouse, master of all martial arts, skilled in all known fields of human endeavour, who never fails at anything and is admired by both men and women for her flawless physical beauty and magnificent soul - basically an average episode of Dollhouse - but sometimes bad people still kill women.

Um, read the website. No one is arguing for the Feminazi strawman you've created. Drama is made of bad things happening to protagonists, and their loved ones - that's a given. But the entire point of Women In Refrigerators is that in comics a disproportionate number of superheroine characters (as opposed to superhero characters, who also often have misery heaped upon their heads) are brutually treated - raped, maimed, dismembered and depowered for long periods of time, or permanently. Read the letter Simone wrote to her colleagues and read their responses before you go assuming some reactionary treatise. Read it, and then come back here and explain how it isn't true.

 

[Hermiod]

Um, read the website. No one is arguing for the Feminazi strawman you've created. Drama is made of bad things happening to protagonists, and their loved ones - that's a given. But the entire point of Women In Refrigerators is that in comics a disproportionate number of superheroine characters (as opposed to superhero characters, who also often have misery heaped upon their heads) are brutually treated - raped, maimed, dismembered and depowered for long periods of time, or permanently. Read the letter Simone wrote to her colleagues and read their responses before you go assuming some reactionary treatise. Read it, and then come back here and explain how it isn't true.

I've read it before, more than once. It's a misnamed. It should be Sidekicks in Refrigerators. The vast majority of popular superheroes are male and a lot of them have female sidekicks, a lot of them have male sidekicks too - like Jason Todd or Harry Osborn.

It isn't just sidekicks, though - Superman is depowered weekly by his enemies. He doesn't just lose his powers, either, but he becomes as weak as a kitten. I will bet you that Superman has been depowered more times than every single female superpowered individual in comics put together - and the current TV version of him and other heroes like Green Arrow are just whipping boys watching on while Tess Mercer orgasm murders another man.

The reason the sidekicks get this treatment ? The villains can't always get to the main hero, so they go for the easy target. They're cowards, that comes with the whole "bad person" thing.

The best example is The Killing Joke. People moan about The Joker shooting Barbara Gordon in the spine but forget why he did it, they ignore what he tried to do to her father because it's inconvenient to their argument. And what happened next ? Barbara becomes Oracle and does more good sitting in her wheelchair than she ever did as Batgirl. Oracle saved Metropolis, not Batgirl.

At the end of the day, Wanda Maximoff is guilty of a worse atrocity than anything your average sidekick refrigerator stuffing villain has ever been, she's guilty of something even her dad couldn't have dreamed of. But her kids died, so I guess that makes making mutantkind almost extinct okay.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Isn't the titular woman a girlfriend and not a sidekick? An while there have been some female sidekicks (Hawkgirl, the Wasp) working with major male heroes, they dont seem that numerous. The list at the WIR sites looks to be a mix of big name heroes, girlfriends, supporting characters and minor heroes.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Um, read the website. No one is arguing for the Feminazi strawman you've created. Drama is made of bad things happening to protagonists, and their loved ones - that's a given. But the entire point of Women In Refrigerators is that in comics a disproportionate number of superheroine characters (as opposed to superhero characters, who also often have misery heaped upon their heads) are brutually treated - raped, maimed, dismembered and depowered for long periods of time, or permanently. Read the letter Simone wrote to her colleagues and read their responses before you go assuming some reactionary treatise. Read it, and then come back here and explain how it isn't true.

I've read it before, more than once. It's a misnamed. It should be Sidekicks in Refrigerators.

I am by no means a comprehensive reader of comics so you may be right. As I said, in any fiction, bad things happen to protagonists and their loved ones, such is the nature of drama. Simone has provided a list of the female heroes who have been raped, maimed, dismembered and depowered for long periods of time, or permanently. Why don't you put together the list of the male characters who have been treated in similar ways and show how it should be more appropriately named Sidekicks in Refrigerators. Considering that Simone asked for her colleagues merely to comment on her list, without in any accusing anyone of anything - I'm sure she and the people who responded to her, not to mention the many people who have since written about Women in Refrigerators, would be very interested to see such a list. And since this seems to be a subject of great concern to you, considering numerous posts you've made over the years, I could see where it would be a satisfying exercise for you too.

It isn't just sidekicks, though - Superman is depowered weekly by his enemies. He doesn't just lose his powers, either, but he becomes as weak as a kitten. I will bet you that Superman has been depowered more times than every single female superpowered individual in comics put together

And how long does he stay depowered? Because Simone's point has to do with the loss of powers for significant periods of time. Doesn't Supes usually return to full power within the arc or shortly thereafter?

- and the current TV version of him and other heroes like Green Arrow are just whipping boys watching on while Tess Mercer orgasm murders another man.

If you say so. I really don't know what you're talking about.

The reason the sidekicks get this treatment ? The villains can't always get to the main hero, so they go for the easy target. They're cowards, that comes with the whole "bad person" thing.

The best example is The Killing Joke. People moan about The Joker shooting Barbara Gordon in the spine but forget why he did it, they ignore what he tried to do to her father because it's inconvenient to their argument. And what happened next ? Barbara becomes Oracle and does more good sitting in her wheelchair than she ever did as Batgirl. Oracle saved Metropolis, not Batgirl.

From Gojirob's contribution of the link to tvtropes:

Examples for this trope should not include every major misfortune of a female character in a story, and especially not tragedies among a mostly-female cast. In some cases the narrative in question actually benefits from the maiming or death, as in the case of Gwen Stacy's death or Barbara Gordon's rebirth as Oracle. This trope comes into play when the woman in question is not just killed, but devalued in some fundamental way (note how many of these characters die in the kitchen after attempting to stand side by side with their male counterparts). In other words a cheap, gruesome, often sexually humiliating death which serves no purpose other than to motivate a male character and is just as quickly forgotten in future story arcs. Also note that the character need not die to qualify; many female superheroes end up raped, traumatized, mutilated, brainwashed or psychologically scarred in ways rarely visited upon male superheroes.

 

[Hermiod]

Isn't the titular woman a girlfriend and not a sidekick? An while there have been some female sidekicks (Hawkgirl, the Wasp) working with major male heroes, they dont seem that numerous. The list at the WIR sites looks to be a mix of big name heroes, girlfriends, supporting characters and minor heroes.

It's generally the sidekicks who get it the worst.

If we're talking about heroic characters in general then the whole WIR argument just gets less convincing. As I said, Superman gets depowered every week, Spider-Man's whole life has been a disaster, the Hulk is forced to live a life of misery, constantly on the run (compare that to his similarly powered cousin), Iron Man has lost everything he has worked for more than once and so on and so on.

 

[Hermiod]

I am by no means a comprehensive reader of comics so you may be right. As I said, in any fiction, bad things happen to protagonists and their loved ones, such is the nature of drama. Simone has provided a list of the female heroes who have been raped, maimed, dismembered and depowered for long periods of time, or permanently. Why don't you put together the list of the male characters who have been treated in similar ways and show how it should be more appropriately named Sidekicks in Refrigerators. Considering that Simone asked for her colleagues merely to comment on her list, without in any accusing anyone of anything - I'm sure she and the people who responded to her, not to mention the many people who have since written about Women in Refrigerators, would be very interested to see such a list. And since this seems to be a subject of great concern to you, considering numerous posts you've made over the years, I could see where it would be a satisfying exercise for you too.

Unfortunately, the result of those numerous posts is that I am more convinced than ever that feminism is not about equality. Feminists rarely care when the inequalities of this world harm men and will even go to great lengths to deny that such harm even exists. As such, Simone's view has gone unchallenged for so long I doubt she would even consider an argument against it.

I will put it as simply as this - the portrayal of men in the media is such that if I was a father of a girl I would be extremely selective about the media I allowed her to consume for fear that she will end up hating me and, much worse, she will have her expectations of men so badly distorted that she will have trouble relating to them for the rest of her life.

And if I had a boy instead ? Well, I would feel sorry for him. No amount of censoring his TV viewing will help him.

And how long does he stay depowered? Because Simone's point has to do with the loss of powers for significant periods of time. Doesn't Supes usually return to full power within the arc or shortly thereafter?

Usually, but it's the effect the depowering has on him that is the point. He comes not just an ordinary person, but weak. Weak enough that anyone can do whatever they like to him and he has to be saved by someone else. Recently, Ms. Marvel did not lose her powers, but had to stop using them because they were killing her. What happened ? She still fought admirably alongside Spider-Man and he ended up so impressed he asked her out on a date!

Given that I can think of a least one occasion where pretty much every major male superhero character has lost their powers, I don't think depowering is disproportionate at all. This is one area I really don't think has anything to do with gender. Depowering is a crutch used by bad writers.

If you say so. I really don't know what you're talking about.

Smallville's replacement Lex Luthor is his former right hand woman Tess Mercer. Her dialogue often makes it very clear that she has a distinct issue with men, but worse than that nearly all of the people she has killed, often with her bare hands, have been male.

This came to a head when she fought and killed one man by repeatedly stomping on his head until blood splattered all over the windows in her office. More disturbing than that was the visibly pleasurable reaction she was having, even licking her lips. I've dubbed this the "Orgasm Murder" scene because that's exactly what it looks like - and this is in a supposedly family friendly show.

To top that off, the only normal person who has been seen to be her equal in a fight ? Lois Lane - a woman.

From Gojirob's contribution of the link to tvtropes:

Okay, point conceeded. However, while what the Joker did to Barbara was an horrific assault on her, it was just as horrific for her father - just indirect. For any father, no injury to him could possibly be as bad as seeing something like that happen to his child.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Unfortunately, the result of those numerous posts is that I am more convinced than ever that feminism is not about equality. Feminists rarely care when the inequalities of this world harm men and will even go to great lengths to deny that such harm even exists. As such, Simone's view has gone unchallenged for so long I doubt she would even consider an argument against it.

I think that's an unfair assessment of Simone, who presented her information in a completely unconfrontational way. I also think that's a misuse of the term feminist. Radical academic feminists are a tiny group of people who have little influence on the way most women think or the way the world works and it's unfair to blanket everyone who thinks of themselves as feminists with being like them.

I will put it as simply as this - the portrayal of men in the media is such that if I was a father of a girl I would be extremely selective about the media I allowed her to consume for fear that she will end up hating me and, much worse, she will have her expectations of men so badly distorted that she will have trouble relating to them for the rest of her life.

And if I had a boy instead ? Well, I would feel sorry for him. No amount of censoring his TV viewing will help him.

Not to be too harsh, but if a daughter's opinion of men or a son's opinnion of himself is capable of being formed by anything DC comics or television has to say - then her/ his father hasn't done his job as a parent.

If you say so. I really don't know what you're talking about.

Smallville's replacement Lex Luthor is his former right hand woman Tess Mercer. Her dialogue often makes it very clear that she has a distinct issue with men, but worse than that nearly all of the people she has killed, often with her bare hands, have been male.

This came to a head when she fought and killed one man by repeatedly stomping on his head until blood splattered all over the windows in her office. More disturbing than that was the visibly pleasurable reaction she was having, even licking her lips. I've dubbed this the "Orgasm Murder" scene because that's exactly what it looks like - and this is in a supposedly family friendly show.

To top that off, the only normal person who has been seen to be her equal in a fight ? Lois Lane - a woman.

I'm sorry, but I'm not following your issue. This is one example. One example from a show that has had dozens upon dozens of storylines in which guys fight guys as physical equals, and women get knocked unconscious twice an episode. I'm not saying Smallville is misogynistic because of these storylines - they're standard cheap soap opera fare. So to have you claiming horrible feminist subversion because of one character seems out of proportion.

Does that sounds like a bad character? Sure. For a variety of reasons (though that follows my general opinion of Smallville). But I don't really follow how it proves that Gail Simone's questions about how women have been treated in comics are unfair or incorrect.

From Gojirob's contribution of the link to tvtropes:

Okay, point conceeded. However, while what the Joker did to Barbara was an horrific assault on her, it was just as horrific for her father - just indirect. For any father, no injury to him could possibly be as bad as seeing something like that happen to his child.

The point is that the story was about it being horrible for Jim, while what happened was a physical violation visited upon Barbara - who then disappears from the story. We see Jim recover himself out of his mental fortitude, we see him being heroic after his horror - and we never even know what happens to Barbara. Her maiming and sexual humiliation (and implied rape) were just plot fodder, and whether she had the heroic qualities to recover or not was entirely immaterial to the story. That's the problem.

But her rebirth as Oracle is a major triumph for comics in the modern age. Someone finally did ask how she recovered, and in writing that story one of the best new heroes in some time was created. Comics are nowhere near what they used to be like when it came to female characters, and they are far more equitable when it comes to spreading the horrific misery around. I posted the link to Women in Refrigerators because a lot of people don't know about it - and they are fair questions being asked, and fair in the context of this character. And at least they are just questions, as opposed to accusations. I think Simone deserves credit for that. Are there other good questions to be asked about the way in which comics are written and how they treat characters of different groups? Sure. Kudos to you for asking them. To me it's better to think about some of this stuff critically than to just absorb the stories - it leads to better stories in the long run. Oracle's story being a good example.

 

[exodus]

From Gojirob's contribution of the link to tvtropes:

Examples for this trope should not include every major misfortune of a female character in a story, and especially not tragedies among a mostly-female cast. In some cases the narrative in question actually benefits from the maiming or death, as in the case of Gwen Stacy's death or Barbara Gordon's rebirth as Oracle. This trope comes into play when the woman in question is not just killed, but devalued in some fundamental way (note how many of these characters die in the kitchen after attempting to stand side by side with their male counterparts). In other words a cheap, gruesome, often sexually humiliating death which serves no purpose other than to motivate a male character and is just as quickly forgotten in future story arcs. Also note that the character need not die to qualify; many female superheroes end up raped, traumatized, mutilated, brainwashed or psychologically scarred in ways rarely visited upon male superheroes.

I'm going to disagree.

Off the top of my head I can name few male superheros this has happened too.

Havok
Chamber
Speedball
Spawn
Wolverine (Seriously, how could we forget the Weapon X project did ALL of that to him.)

To give a few examples.

 

[Hermiod]

I think that's an unfair assessment of Simone, who presented her information in a completely unconfrontational way. I also think that's a misuse of the term feminist. Radical academic feminists are a tiny group of people who have little influence on the way most women think or the way the world works and it's unfair to blanket everyone who thinks of themselves as feminists with being like them.

Why present it at all ? Why go to the trouble of setting up a website just to present a list ? Is anyone denying that women got short shrift in the media for decades ? I'm certainly not.

My argument is that in some sort of misguided attempt to correct for that, everywhere you look men are presented as weak, incompetent morons who'll do anything for a glimpse of a woman naked or evil monsters who rape and murder any woman who gets in their way while every show is packed with Mary Sues who can do no wrong.

Not to be too harsh, but if a daughter's opinion of men or a son's opinnion of himself is capable of being formed by anything DC comics or television has to say - then her/ his father hasn't done his job as a parent.

Kids learn a lot from the media around them. Not everything, but it's highly influential. Whether they read a Twilight book or listen to Beyonce telling them to not to trust men until they "put a ring on it", its inevitable that it's going to have an effect.

I'm sorry, but I'm not following your issue. This is one example. One example from a show that has had dozens upon dozens of storylines in which guys fight guys as physical equals, and women get knocked unconscious twice an episode. I'm not saying Smallville is misogynistic because of these storylines - they're standard cheap soap opera fare. So to have you claiming horrible feminist subversion because of one character seems out of proportion.

Does that sounds like a bad character? Sure. For a variety of reasons (though that follows my general opinion of Smallville). But I don't really follow how it proves that Gail Simone's questions about how women have been treated in comics are unfair or incorrect.

It doesn't, nor was it meant to. You merely stated that you didn't know what I was talking about so I was attempting to fill you in. Smallville is probably number two, however, on the list of worst offenders when it comes to the stereotyped portrayal of men I mention and Mary Sue nature of its female characters. The only show that's worse in that regard is the aforementioned Dollhouse.

The point is that the story was about it being horrible for Jim, while what happened was a physical violation visited upon Barbara - who then disappears from the story. We see Jim recover himself out of his mental fortitude, we see him being heroic after his horror - and we never even know what happens to Barbara. Her maiming and sexual humiliation (and implied rape) were just plot fodder, and whether she had the heroic qualities to recover or not was entirely immaterial to the story. That's the problem.

To be fair, that's largely because the tale outside of the flashbacks is told from Jim's point of view and shortly afterwards he is kidnapped. We don't see what happens to Barbara afterwards because he doesn't.

Now, I will say that I have only ever read the story as a trade paperback so I do not know if Batman stories that followed it followed Barbara's injuries up. However, Barbara was hardly the only member of the Bat family to suffer spinal injuries around that time, now was she ?

But her rebirth as Oracle is a major triumph for comics in the modern age. Someone finally did ask how she recovered, and in writing that story one of the best new heroes in some time was created. Comics are nowhere near what they used to be like when it came to female characters, and they are far more equitable when it comes to spreading the horrific misery around. I posted the link to Women in Refrigerators because a lot of people don't know about it - and they are fair questions being asked, and fair in the context of this character. And at least they are just questions, as opposed to accusations. I think Simone deserves credit for that. Are there other good questions to be asked about the way in which comics are written and how they treat characters of different groups? Sure. Kudos to you for asking them. To me it's better to think about some of this stuff critically than to just absorb the stories - it leads to better stories in the long run. Oracle's story being a good example.

Yes, I do have questions to ask. I want to know why we have to overcompensate so dramatically. Never have I asked for female characters to be portrayed as being as weak and incompetent as male characters are to compensate.

It comes to something when the best example I can use of what I'd like to see is an episode of the Twilight Zone from 1962. Watch "To Serve Man", watch how the lead character Chambers and his colleague Pat (a woman) behave towards each other. They're both competent professionals and they treat each other as such with none of the standard TV sexual tension, and in the end it is Pat who translates the book. If that was being remade today, Pat would be a gorgeous woman - probably a single mother who juggles her career and family - in charge of the project who belittles the geeky math nerd Chambers who ends up getting eaten. They wouldn't be so subtle as to not show it at the end either.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Why present it at all ? Why go to the trouble of setting up a website just to present a list ? Is anyone denying that women got short shrift in the media for decades ? I'm certainly not.

When Simone put this list together she was concerned about the state of comics at that time. Her point was that it was actively happening and she was curious as to whether her colleagues - the people actively writing this material - were aware of the trend. There's nothing unfair about saying to the people you work with - hey, I noticed this. Am I seeing something that's not there? What do you think? Because that's all she did.

My argument is that in some sort of misguided attempt to correct for that, everywhere you look men are presented as weak, incompetent morons who'll do anything for a glimpse of a woman naked or evil monsters who rape and murder any woman who gets in their way while every show is packed with Mary Sues who can do no wrong.

You've made the charge but you've only shown one example of a villain you think was portrayed inappropriately. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that you haven't proven your case. In what stories are men presented as weak, incompetent morons, while perfect female Mary Sues do no wrong?

Kids learn a lot from the media around them. Not everything, but it's highly influential. Whether they read a Twilight book or listen to Beyonce telling them to not to trust men until they "put a ring on it", its inevitable that it's going to have an effect.

How about they read Harry Potter, Percy Jackson and the Olympians, Artemis Fowl, Eragon - all tremendously popular books where the main characters are male. How about they listen to Sexy Chick where the value of a woman has to do with how her booty moves? And this line stated in between the lines "I'm trying to find a way to describe this girl that isn't disrespectful."

PS - Beyonce's song has nothing to do with not trusting a man unless he commits to you. It has to do with not letting an ex give you trouble when you move on. There's nothing in it that is disrespectful to a man.

But my point is, kids are inundated by media and a parent's responsiblity is to give them context and teach them values. That is the deciding factor in a child's opinion of the opposite sex and themselves, and if it isn't then they have piss poor parents.

The point is that the story was about it being horrible for Jim, while what happened was a physical violation visited upon Barbara - who then disappears from the story. We see Jim recover himself out of his mental fortitude, we see him being heroic after his horror - and we never even know what happens to Barbara. Her maiming and sexual humiliation (and implied rape) were just plot fodder, and whether she had the heroic qualities to recover or not was entirely immaterial to the story. That's the problem.

To be fair, that's largely because the tale outside of the flashbacks is told from Jim's point of view and shortly afterwards he is kidnapped. We don't see what happens to Barbara afterwards because he doesn't.

No, the story is told in third person omniscient. The author chose to show us what happens to Jim and not what happens to Barbara. It's not like the story had to be told one way - the author chose.

Now, I will say that I have only ever read the story as a trade paperback so I do not know if Batman stories that followed it followed Barbara's injuries up. However, Barbara was hardly the only member of the Bat family to suffer spinal injuries around that time, now was she ?

She was the only one who was taken completely unawares, shown as not defending herself at all, stripped naked and photographed, and then had those photographs shown to her loved ones, wasn't she?

Yes, I do have questions to ask. I want to know why we have to overcompensate so dramatically. Never have I asked for female characters to be portrayed as being as weak and incompetent as male characters are to compensate.

And I don't believe anyone has asked that male charactes be shown as weak and incompetent to compensate for females' strength either. I think you have an tendency whenever a woman (other than your much cherished Ms. Marvel) is shown to be the central hero of piece to claim that the male characters involved have been shortchanged and somehow denigrated while ignoring how often male characters are shown to be the central heroes while female characters are secondary, weaker, or forgotten in the course of a story.

It comes to something when the best example I can use of what I'd like to see is an episode of the Twilight Zone from 1962. Watch "To Serve Man", watch how the lead character Chambers and his colleague Pat (a woman) behave towards each other. They're both competent professionals and they treat each other as such with none of the standard TV sexual tension, and in the end it is Pat who translates the book. If that was being remade today, Pat would be a gorgeous woman - probably a single mother who juggles her career and family - in charge of the project who belittles the geeky math nerd Chambers who ends up getting eaten. They wouldn't be so subtle as to not show it at the end either.

Well, that's an interesting theoretical that does nothing to prove your claim that male characters are routinely shown to be weak and incompetent while female Mary Sues are overrunning the superhero genre. Because last time I counted 95% of titles still revolve around male characters. Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Iron Man, and Hulk all have had multiple movies made (in which female characters have been shown to be cannon fodder (Rachel Dawes), shallow and stupid as well as physically unable (Lois Lane), idealized and useless love interests (Mary Jane, Pepper and Betty)while Wonder Woman can't even make it to the screen once. I can't speak to Smallville - it's a crappy show that I quit watching after season 2 because all of its characters were wildly ridiculous. Never saw Dollhouse, but it's hardly shocking that Joss Whedon produced a tale about an ass-kicking petite female. He's one producer out of thousands.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Isn't the titular woman a girlfriend and not a sidekick? An while there have been some female sidekicks (Hawkgirl, the Wasp) working with major male heroes, they dont seem that numerous. The list at the WIR sites looks to be a mix of big name heroes, girlfriends, supporting characters and minor heroes.

It's generally the sidekicks who get it the worst.

Not sure what you mean. Sidekicks get what worst? Depowered? Killed? injured? Bucky and Jason Todd were killed (but guess who's back). Other than the what sidekick to a major character has been killed? Kid Flash and Dick Graysom were promoted to the "majors". Speedy and Aqualad left sidekick status behind years ago. The idea of a "sidekick" has pretty much faded from the genre anyway.

If we're talking about heroic characters in general then the whole WIR argument just gets less convincing. As I said, Superman gets depowered every week, Spider-Man's whole life has been a disaster, the Hulk is forced to live a life of misery, constantly on the run (compare that to his similarly powered cousin), Iron Man has lost everything he has worked for more than once and so on and so on.

I agree that including a major character like Wonder Woman on the list is misleading because she will go through the same up and downs as any male hero. Thats the nature of the serial format.

 

[Davros]

She's guilty of a worse crime against humanity than even her father could imagine.

Her greatest crime was against homosuperior, not humanity.

Mutant supremacy is the future!

 

[Hermiod]

When Simone put this list together she was concerned about the state of comics at that time. Her point was that it was actively happening and she was curious as to whether her colleagues - the people actively writing this material - were aware of the trend. There's nothing unfair about saying to the people you work with - hey, I noticed this. Am I seeing something that's not there? What do you think? Because that's all she did.

I find the whole business somewhat self-serving on Simone's part.

You've made the charge but you've only shown one example of a villain you think was portrayed inappropriately. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that you haven't proven your case. In what stories are men presented as weak, incompetent morons, while perfect female Mary Sues do no wrong?

As I said, I described Tess Mercer because you asked. I have posted numerous times, as you well know, discussing my Wimps and Monsters theory as it relates to various shows - Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Lost being the two most obvious examples. Heroes (depowering anyone ? Peter Petrelli wrote the book on that), Stargate Atlantis, even Battlestar Galactica.

Even 24's Jack Bauer was marginalised during of its most recent season in favour of a female version of the character. The second half of the season almost felt like Sutherland had some movie he was shooting and couldn't be around half the time.

How about they read Harry Potter, Percy Jackson and the Olympians, Artemis Fowl, Eragon - all tremendously popular books where the main characters are male.

Where the title character is male, maybe. For every Harry Potter there's a Hermione.

How about they listen to Sexy Chick where the value of a woman has to do with how her booty moves? And this line stated in between the lines "I'm trying to find a way to describe this girl that isn't disrespectful."

I have no idea who you are talking about, but I'm going to guess this is some rap lyric. I have never claimed to like rap music or its mysoginistic lyrics.

No, the story is told in third person omniscient. The author chose to show us what happens to Jim and not what happens to Barbara. It's not like the story had to be told one way - the author chose.

Just like the authors of modern films and television choose not to portray their male characters in the same positive light as their female ones.

She was the only one who was taken completely unawares, shown as not defending herself at all, stripped naked and photographed, and then had those photographs shown to her loved ones, wasn't she?

As I said, that is almost as great an injury to her father as it is to her.

And I don't believe anyone has asked that male charactes be shown as weak and incompetent to compensate for females' strength either. I think you have an tendency whenever a woman (other than your much cherished Ms. Marvel) is shown to be the central hero of piece to claim that the male characters involved have been shortchanged and somehow denigrated while ignoring how often male characters are shown to be the central heroes while female characters are secondary, weaker, or forgotten in the course of a story.

Interesting that you cite Ms. Marvel. Yes, Carol's my number two comic book character. What you ignore, however, is the fact that I'm also a huge fan of Jessica Jones, Spider-Woman, She Hulk and many other superheroines. It does not upset me when Wonder Man or Luke Cage or even Spider-Man is portrayed as a secondary character in their stories because that's what they are. What I would object to is seeing Spidey and co portrayed as less competent, less intelligent and less of a hero just because they are around such a superheroine. Spider-Man and Ms. Marvel have been teaming up a lot lately and nobody could be happier but me. In fact, when Ms. Marvel needed help she called Spider-Man up.

Generally, in Marvel comics at least, I don't see that their superheroines are portrayed as sidekicks and secondary characters. Sure, not many superheroines get their own books but unfortunately that's just the market. All I can do is buy Ms. Marvel and Spider-Woman every month.

Well, that's an interesting theoretical that does nothing to prove your claim that male characters are routinely shown to be weak and incompetent while female Mary Sues are overrunning the superhero genre. Because last time I counted 95% of titles still revolve around male characters. Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Iron Man, and Hulk all have had multiple movies made (in which female characters have been shown to be cannon fodder (Rachel Dawes), shallow and stupid as well as physically unable (Lois Lane), idealized and useless love interests (Mary Jane, Pepper and Betty)while Wonder Woman can't even make it to the screen once. I can't speak to Smallville - it's a crappy show that I quit watching after season 2 because all of its characters were wildly ridiculous. Never saw Dollhouse, but it's hardly shocking that Joss Whedon produced a tale about an ass-kicking petite female. He's one producer out of thousands.

Whedon's a TV Trope all on his own.

Lois may not be her husband's physical equal but who is ? She is, however, better at other things than Clark. She's a better journalist than Clark, her investigative mind is superior to his.

I'm surprised you criticise Pepper - Tony Stark would not be able to exist without her, especially in his current situation.

To be frank, I am glad no Wonder Woman movie has been made. It's obvious that any script will fall back to the "Man's World" nonsense that has held the character back since her inception. It's certainly something to be grateful for that Joss Whedon is no longer involved. I can't imagine that casting the most beautiful woman in the world is easy, either.

 

[Hermiod]

Not sure what you mean. Sidekicks get what worst? Depowered? Killed? injured? Bucky and Jason Todd were killed (but guess who's back). Other than the what sidekick to a major character has been killed? Kid Flash and Dick Graysom were promoted to the "majors". Speedy and Aqualad left sidekick status behind years ago. The idea of a "sidekick" has pretty much faded from the genre anyway.

Many of the characters on the list are secondary characters who were killed or injured for the effect it would have on the primary character. Why did the Joker do what he did to Jason Todd, Jim Gordon and Barbara Gordon ? Because he wanted to get to them ? He could kill any of them any time he wanted to. No, he did it to get to Batman. Like it or not, Batgirl was Batman's sidekick, just like Robin was. In fact, she's the worst kind of sidekick - just take a male hero and stick "girl" in her name somewhere.

It all comes back to what I said right at the start, sometimes bad people kill women.

And sometimes bad people who happen to be women depower 99% of the world's mutants and leave them to die just because of their childish daddy issues.

I agree that including a major character like Wonder Woman on the list is misleading because she will go through the same up and downs as any male hero. Thats the nature of the serial format.

Including many of the women on the list is misleading for the same reason.

 

[Nick Ryder]

I think ol' Witchy gets the sour end of the stick because she some how became popular when I think she basically started out life as "just another mutant."

 

[Hermiod]

I think ol' Witchy gets the sour end of the stick because she some how became popular when I think she basically started out life as "just another mutant."

She gets the sour end of the stick because she's a bloody boring character with poorly defined powers and no real personality of her own.

I'm biased, sure, but Ms. Marvel gets more character development in one issue than Wanda gets in a decade.