DS9 relaunch - incomplete?

[langdonboom]

If the decision had been made to continue the story right away, then the Ascendant plot would've been shaped to fit that timeline; but since the decision's been made to jump forward, it stands to reason that the Ascendant plot would be shaped to fit that timeline instead.

Here's an interesting question that I wonder if you have any insight into:

Are these decisions being made based on what's best for the narrative (in terms of fidelity to what's come before, overall quality of storytelling, etc) or are other publishing realities the driving force (such as the commercial viability of the DS9 relaunch at this point, the desire to catch DS9 up to post-Destiny storylines and thus keep them 'involved', etc), requiring a little bit of "creativity" to flesh out the story under these external circumstances? Naturally, my assumption is the latter - and not that I totally disagree that the benefits won't outweigh the drawbacks, but let's call it what it is, if in fact that's why this jump decision has been made.

 

[JD]

Ok, I think part of the problem here is that you're assuming everything has been planned out in advance, and based on what several authors (and possibly the editors too) have said that is not the case. While they do have a basic idea of where they want things go with the storyline, they always leave it mostly open, so that new ideas can be brought in by the different authors without messing anything up.

As much as I've been enjoying this debate, I'm gonna have to stop now because pretty much anything I can think of to say at this point is getting to detailed to post here without breaking the no story ideas rule.

 

[Christopher]

My implication is that from what we DO know, mostly from Opaka's encounter but also from the input of the Evoq in Rising Son, they appear to be "back" and on the warpath now that they are again in "this neck of the woods." To me this implies some kind of immediate (or at least sooner than 5 years, remember this is what we're talking about) action about to take place in this story.

Your interesting analogy about Hitler/Poland seemed to project a bit more onto the story than what we've been given in the actual narrative, as I read it, namely an assumption that they're not in a position to take any action - that was what I tried to express in my previous post.

Hitler took plenty of actions before invading Poland. It's not like he was sitting idle for six years. For that matter, he took plenty of actions to become head of the Nazi Party and eventually rise to Chancellor of Germany. My point is that an action like this, something along the lines of an interstellar war or conquest or crusade, is not going to be a single event but a whole complex process, one event building on another building on another until you finally get a payoff on a galactic scale. Even if the Ascendants begin to take action immediately, that doesn't mean the ultimate point of crisis will be anywhere near immediate.

I mean, look at the Dominion War. The Founders began keeping an eye on the Alpha Quadrant early in the second season of DS9 (approximately), but it took more than three and a half more years of observation, infiltration, manipulation, and gradual escalation before they began the war in earnest.

I suppose we just disagree on the "needs of the narrative" -- clearly I felt after reading the past few DS9 books that something was imminent, you and others do not.

No, I'm saying that even if the people writing those books intended it to be imminent, it can nonetheless be reworked to fit the new story timing. Authors rework their plans all the time. Just because something was initially set up one way doesn't mean it can't be revised into some other form. Heck, TNG: "Conspiracy" was originally supposed to lead into the introduction of the Borg. Data was originally supposed to be capable of emotion. Plans change. Things established in earlier works get reinterpreted later on. That's just part of how writing happens.

As for "events with an independent existence" I'm sure as a veteran Trek author you recognize the need for any story to at least remain consistent unto itself, in terms of character behavior as well as narrative events -- in this way once something is established, it does have a degree of independent existence.

Sure, you want to create the impression of consistency as much as possible, but there are ways to change your plans while still making them seem reasonably consistent. It's just a matter of reinterpreting what's been shown before, revealing that it didn't mean what it initially seemed to mean. Sometimes it's awkward, sometimes it requires cheating a bit, but it happens all the time, especially in a long-running shared universe with many different creators contributing to it.

Here's an interesting question that I wonder if you have any insight into:

Are these decisions being made based on what's best for the narrative (in terms of fidelity to what's come before, overall quality of storytelling, etc) or are other publishing realities the driving force (such as the commercial viability of the DS9 relaunch at this point, the desire to catch DS9 up to post-Destiny storylines and thus keep them 'involved', etc), requiring a little bit of "creativity" to flesh out the story under these external circumstances? Naturally, my assumption is the latter - and not that I totally disagree that the benefits won't outweigh the drawbacks, but let's call it what it is, if in fact that's why this jump decision has been made.

I'm sure the decisions are being based on both those factors. It's not about choosing between them, but about balancing them. Of course you want to serve the narrative to the best of your ability, but you can't ignore publishing realities either.

In this case, I think it's a false dichotomy. There were valid narrative arguments in favor of both keeping DS9 where it was and moving it forward. Ultimately it was a judgment call, and Margaret's judgment was different from Marco's. It's as simple as that.

 

[langdonboom]

Hitler took plenty of actions before invading Poland... My point is that an action like this, something along the lines of an interstellar war or conquest or crusade, is not going to be a single event but a whole complex process, one event building on another building on another until you finally get a payoff on a galactic scale... I mean, look at the Dominion War. The Founders began keeping an eye on the Alpha Quadrant early in the second season of DS9 (approximately), but it took more than three and a half more years of observation, infiltration, manipulation, and gradual escalation before they began the war in earnest.

I'm afraid you have to cherry pick certain events in the DS9R books to get this to fit such a WW2 analogy, but its a good one if you disregard certain things. To me, one of those major thing is the re-discovery/appearance of the Evoq. Now the mirror universe storyline took us away from that for a bit, but in story-time not an objectionably long time. Though to me this and the shift of the wormhole in the Idran system is more like (to use different World War as an example) the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand, which set a series of events rapidly in motion to start a war, as opposed to your Hitler build-up analogy.

But that's my take and you do a very good job articulating yours. Much appreciated.

Also, let me say again -- all I'm really hoping for here is some development, some "next steps" in the story - not a huge galactic payoff all at once in the very next book. The concern I have is that this storyline will be ignored or delayed due to more 'current' concerns, the Borg/Caeliar or Typhon stories (which I also do want to get to! Just not at the expense of the great stuff that's come before). That is the major issue for me. Not that it all get wrapped up next book.

I suppose we just disagree on the "needs of the narrative" -- clearly I felt after reading the past few DS9 books that something was imminent, you and others do not.

No, I'm saying that even if the people writing those books intended it to be imminent, it can nonetheless be reworked to fit the new story timing. Authors rework their plans all the time....That's just part of how writing happens.

Of course, that is well understood. These things happen, and sometimes external pressures make for better art than what you'd come up with under a total 'free' situation. Here's hoping that's what we get, and not the opposite possibility, which can also happen. For the record, since DRG3 wrote Olympus Descending I tend to think he'll be able to at least keep those elements alive in some fashion, if he's allowed to.

As for "events with an independent existence" I'm sure as a veteran Trek author you recognize the need for any story to at least remain consistent unto itself, in terms of character behavior as well as narrative events -- in this way once something is established, it does have a degree of independent existence.

Sure, you want to create the impression of consistency as much as possible, but there are ways to change your plans while still making them seem reasonably consistent. It's just a matter of reinterpreting what's been shown before, revealing that it didn't mean what it initially seemed to mean. Sometimes it's awkward, sometimes it requires cheating a bit, but it happens all the time, especially in a long-running shared universe with many different creators contributing to it.

Sure, in the improv theater world they call that saying "yes, and" -- you take what's been established, whatever it may be, or whatever the original speaker intended it to be, treat it as real and build on it from there as you will. I've seen amazing pieces created this way amongst groups of people who have no idea what's going on in the other people's heads. Just listening and responding and building. The flip side of that is that if you put something out there, others can't ignore it or deny it or else you risk destroying the illusion of the reality you're building. The devil is in the detail of just how much I or you think has been established and what that then implies regarding certain story lines.

So I don't envy DRG3 and whomever else will have to walk this tightrope, but as I've said before, I have not really been anything less than entertained and often totally moved and blown away by the relaunch and post-Nemesis Trek books and I expect that to continue. (but that doesn't mean I can't chat amiably about a few concerns with everybody, right?)

Here's an interesting question that I wonder if you have any insight into:

Are these decisions being made based on what's best for the narrative...or ... other publishing realities

I'm sure the decisions are being based on both those factors. It's not about choosing between them, but about balancing them. Of course you want to serve the narrative to the best of your ability, but you can't ignore publishing realities either.

In this case, I think it's a false dichotomy. There were valid narrative arguments in favor of both keeping DS9 where it was and moving it forward. Ultimately it was a judgment call, and Margaret's judgment was different from Marco's. It's as simple as that.

False dichotomy or not, I appreciate the delicate balancing act that you all have to perform with these factors, and I doubly appreciate your thoughtful replies. Thank you!

 

[David R. George III]

...you'll just have to wait and see.

Fair enough. Though if you're worried about affecting sales one way or the other -- at least with me you can rest assured I'm in for a penny, in for a pound as far as the Pocket books 24th century Trek books.

I'm not concerned that anything I post on TrekBBS will adversely impact sales. And it's certainly good to hear that you intend to continue reading the ongoing Deep Space Nine story. There are, however, several reasons for me not to reveal too much about what I intend to write. As the book hasn't yet been completed, any number of details might change between outline and publication, on either the writing, editing, or even the vetting side. Moreover, I wouldn't want to constrict the creative process by promising to deliver something I then wanted to change. Most important, why would I want to convey such information in this manner (posting on a BBS), when the whole point of my writing this story is to convery the information by way of an actual novel?

It will be disappointing to find out some of those storylines I cited above won't get resolved or only get "Full Circle"'d but regardless I'm excited for the Typhon pact story lines as-is, and I've dealt with worse disappointments in my life (I guess...)

Here's the thing. I can virtually guarantee that with respect to any ongoing storyline, in any literary series--or in any sort of artistic series, for that matter--no single tale will resolve all plots. Really, isn't the point of having a series to keep readers interested? And isn't one of the best ways to do that to leave them wanting more?

Also, from a practical standpoint, no matter what I (and other Star Trek writers) come up with for the DSN storyline, there's simply no reasonable expectation that I (and they) will succeed in pleasing every reader. But I will strive to pen the best possible novel I can, and to produce the best possible DSN stories I can. In so doing, I'm hopeful that I can please many readers.

Consider me waiting and seeing.

I like your attitude!

Maybe DRG3 prefers his readers to get their surprises reading the book instead of advance spoilers on a BBS?

Indeed, Ian, I cannot argue this point.

I'm not worried about the five year jump because I remember reading DRG3's books "The 34th Rule" and "Mission Gamma I: Twilight". You can not describe the guy's writing style as 'breif'. Assuming the editors are generous with word limits I could see him telling a coherent story that spans the five years in one book. Really; it's quite the oppourunity -- most Trek books aren't allowed to explore years at a time.

While absolutely true that I could write a novel spanning five years--and in fact have done so--I should point out that Rough Beasts of Empire is a Typhon Pact novel.

I guess, though, that I haven't really heard anything about the new DS9 book. Is it confined to the post-Borg time period? Even if that were true I'd still put in a vote of confidence that he could weave in alot of information and glimpses into the lost years.

To this point, we've revealed little about the Typhon Pact series.

IMO Pocket would be stupid to just ignore the five years between the stories, or to skip the stories that have been set up before the jump. I know a new editor is taking over, and we are jumping ahead, but that doesn't mean that they are going to ignore what has made DS9 DS9. Sure they might pull Full Circle and tie them all up in one book, but unless someone involved tells me, there is no way I'm going to believe they will ignore all of the ongoing stories.

The writers who are penning the Typhon Pact series are, to the degree necessary, familiar with the ongoing Deep Space Nine storylines. You can trust that any DSN characters and plots will be utilized with all that came before in mind.

My apologies, I was not looking for anything like plot specifics of anything spoilery at all! The last thing I'd want to do is to deprive myself of the joy of reading these books.

I was more just looking for an answer to the question "will there be any addressing/furthering of the DS9 storylines, specifically the ascendants/dominion plots that were left dangling at the end of Soul Key, or will they just be skipped over or minimized in order to bring DS9 up to "the present"?" Just looking for a yes or no, if possible. But no details as to how (if so), please!

I apologise again if I seemed to be asking for privilidged information. But perhaps that gap will not be adressed? In any case I am excited to read the Typhon pact storylines having greatly enjoyed everything leading up to it.

No need for apologies. Anybody can ask anything they like; I will answer those questions I can.

So far as you wondering "will there be any addressing/furthering of the DS9 storylines, specifically the ascendants/dominion plots that were left dangling at the end of Soul Key, or will they just be skipped over or minimized in order to bring DS9 up to "the present"?"...well, as I've already indicated, I'll have to pass on offering even a yes or a no at this point. I can promise that, with respect to Deep Space Nine, there are often surprises.

 

[langdonboom]

David,

Thanks so much for your reply. I completely understand your position and respect your need for some confidentiality.

why would I want to convey such information in this manner (posting on a BBS), when the whole point of my writing this story is to convery the information by way of an actual novel?

Here's the thing. I can virtually guarantee that with respect to any ongoing storyline, in any literary series--or in any sort of artistic series, for that matter--no single tale will resolve all plots. Really, isn't the point of having a series to keep readers interested? And isn't one of the best ways to do that to leave them wanting more?

...Indeed, Ian, I cannot argue this point.

I just want to re-iterate that all I was hoping for was a very general "yes, this book will further stories x, y, or z in some fashion/address what's happened across five years" or "no, we will have to get to that in a later book" and nothing like anything beyond what might be on the back of the book once published. However, I do understand very well your desire to keep certain freedoms until the final product is completed - I actually had assumed that, given the numerous delays, that this books was at a late stage already, but I see I was mistaken, and I of course understand with so much lead time before it actually comes out the desire to stay non-committal on even the most general of details. I certainly would not want to deny myself (or anybody else) the pleasure of reading your story once published!

Nor was I expecting (or desiring) all plots to be resolved in your next book or books, simply advanced, addressed, used as material for further storytelling, as opposed to disregarded or shelved for other stories. You have also explained well why you wouldn't want to even give this information, and I appreciate that.

I still maintain my feeling (prejudice?) that in story-logic, some of the aforementioned plot threads would be a bit difficult to believably 'explain' as not having moved forward in this large a time span, but as you have all collectively and consistently impressed me with the post-Nemesis/Relaunch novels, I feel safe in your hands (as well as other Trek authors) and will stay tuned for whatever comes...

But I will strive to pen the best possible novel I can, and to produce the best possible DSN stories I can.

Of this I have no doubt!

While absolutely true that I could write a novel spanning five years--and in fact have done so--I should point out that Rough Beasts of Empire is a Typhon Pact novel.

...The writers who are penning the Typhon Pact series are, to the degree necessary, familiar with the ongoing Deep Space Nine storylines. You can trust that any DSN characters and plots will be utilized with all that came before in mind

That comes rather close to telling! And it basically answers my original question... Thanks again for the reply.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I just want to re-iterate that all I was hoping for was a very general "yes, this book will further stories x, y, or z in some fashion/address what's happened across five years" or "no, we will have to get to that in a later book" and nothing like anything beyond what might be on the back of the book once published.

If you read the author notes in "Crucible: Kirk", you'll see how that book underwent a major rethink before it was finished.

Also, dare I recall LA Graf's "The Janus Gate" trilogy, very little of which even resembled the blurb that remained printed on the three covers.

Sometimes I think we know too much already. We get pictures of action figure prototypes several years before they appear in shops - or even worse, before the figures get cancelled. And there was a certain magic of hunting for a new Star Trek novel when all you knew was a title, and maaaaaybe an author, from a one-line mention in "Locus".

I actually had assumed that, given the numerous delays, that this books was at a late stage already

Numerous delays?

This mini-series has had delays?

 

[langdonboom]

Numerous delays?

This mini-series has had delays?

Forgive my hyperbole, numerous is probably over-stating the case, or else I'm completely remembering wrong, but I thought I had heard that the publishing date had been pushed back at least once.

In any case, I tend to agree we have access to too much - I am not a spoiler kind of guy at all, seems to me to rob the reader of the very joy they get from the show/book/movie itself. But I do tend to read the back of the book or general synopsis to see what exactly the basic story is before I buy or commit to reading a series or book. Though at this point, I will pretty much read any Trek novel set in the familiar environs of TNG, DS9, Voyager or Titan, regardless of specific plot. BUT as I've exhaustively expressed - I would have been happy to know for certain that the Ascendants/Dominion storylines are not getting short shrift, even if I am looking forward to the galaxy-wide fall-out from the Typhon pact.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I would have been happy to know for certain that the Ascendants/Dominion storylines are not getting short shrift

In the great tapestry which is Star Trek, there are very few sections that get permanent "short shrift". I cannot imagine that the Ascendants storyline will never be addressed, and with so much on my "to read" pile I couldn't get to for ages even if it came out yesterday.

 

[DEWLine]

One thing's for sure after seeing all of this hullaballo written out of late: when "Season Ten" finally kicks off, it certainly won't be ignored hereabouts!

 

[David R. George III]

^ We're skipping straight to "Season Fourteen."

 

[Arix]

Wow! I disappear for a month, and come back to find that not only has my thread continued, but its been very busy!

I finally went out and bought The Soul Key, and finished reading it, just the other day, and seeing as it ended on SUCH a cliffhanger (Iliana really is a fantastic character!) I thought I'd come and see how this thread was doing.

Kudos to langdonboom - our thoughts are totally in sync! Everything you said, is pretty much exactly what I would have said - so now I already have the answers to all the questions I would have posed.

Thankyou also to Christopher and DRG3 for commenting! I still get a bit of a thrill visiting here, and actually talking to the amazing authors who write the books I love!

I am now less upset/annoyed about the jump to 'Season 14' - I know that the events following on from The Soul Key will not be ignored. It is now simply a matter of whether they will be addressed in Rough Beasts of Empire, or in later novels - for the record, I'm not actually asking, I know DRG3 can't tell me (if he even knows, which he might not).

In fact, after reading The Soul Key, I can see how this issue could be addressed.

Spoiler Alert -

As we know, Warpath left us on a hell of a cliffhanger. Then when Fearful Symmetry came along, it both gave us Iliana's backstory AND moved ahead with the events immediately following on from Warpath. And then, with The Soul Key, it jumped back again to fill in the blanks in Iliana's story between her part Fearful Symmetry through Warpath and Kira's part of Fearful Symmetry.

SO it seems fairly reasonable that, even if the Ascendants aren't addressed directly in Rough Beasts of Empire, it could still hint to the events that happened - which would then be outlined in flashback form in the next book(s).

Whatever happens though, I know I'll be happy :P Now I'm just eagerly (and impatiently) awaiting the Typhon Pact series!

 

[mackula]

Whatever happens though, I know I'll be happy :P Now I'm just eagerly (and impatiently) awaiting the Typhon Pact series!

Couldn't have said it better myself.

The stories are in more than capable hands & minds.