DS9 relaunch - incomplete?

[langdonboom]

Though if you're worried about affecting sales one way or the other .

Huh?

Maybe DRG3 prefers his readers to get their surprises reading the book instead of advance spoilers on a BBS?

Oh perhaps I wasn't being clear! My apologies, I was not looking for anything like plot specifics of anything spoilery at all! The last thing I'd want to do is to deprive myself of the joy of reading these books.

I was more just looking for an answer to the question "will there be any addressing/furthering of the DS9 storylines, specifically the ascendants/dominion plots that were left dangling at the end of Soul Key, or will they just be skipped over or minimized in order to bring DS9 up to "the present"?" Just looking for a yes or no, if possible. But no details as to how (if so), please!

I apologise again if I seemed to be asking for privilidged information. But perhaps that gap will not be adressed? In any case I am excited to read the Typhon pact storylines having greatly enjoyed everything leading up to it.

 

[Therin of Andor]

^Agreed. IMO Pocket would be stupid to just ignore the five years between the stories, or to skip the stories that have been set up before the jump.

And yet... for several years we had posters complaining, "DS9 is lagging further and further behind. When is it going to be allowed to catch up with the rest of the 24th century novels?"

 

[Steve Roby]

Two different groups. No hypocrisy, no mass change of opinion, just two different groups of people wanting different things.

For that matter, I don't remember any of the people who wanted DS9 to catch up saying they wanted to leave a bunch of ongoing plotlines unresolved in order to catch up.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think Therin was saying there was any hypocrisy or mass change of opinion, merely pointing out that there are different points of view on the issue of whether or not to jump DS9 forward, that there are valid arguments in favor of both approaches, so neither one is intrinsically wrong.

 

[BrotherBenny]

I don't think Therin was saying there was any hypocrisy or mass change of opinion, merely pointing out that there are different points of view on the issue of whether or not to jump DS9 forward, that there are valid arguments in favor of both approaches, so neither one is intrinsically wrong.

The Mirror Universe arc, while good, did seem to turn a few people off the DS9 relaunch and it may have been in part responsible for the editorial decision to jump DS9 ahead to the Typhon Pact to keep it fresh.

A poster mentioned in another thread some time ago that Peter David's (and his editor's) intention of jumping New Frontier ahead three years was done to keep things fresh and to bring that series in line with the rest of the 24th century books. PAD hasn't yet covered those three years but there's no reason why he won't at some point, though I will have to refresh my memory on what was involved at some point. I've probably read 200 books since the NF jump.

There are still huge tracts of unexplored time in the trek mythos, several years in the lost era between "Generations" and TNG, and even between Beneath the Raptor's Wing and "The Cage". Star Trek is inherently incomplete, and that's what the novels are for...to fill in the gaps and tell fantastic stories.

 

[langdonboom]

For what its worth, my feeling is that if all the major stories had been resolved, I wouldn't mind a big leap in time at all. You know: "THREE YEARS LATER..." That would be cool.

Then it would be more a matter of enjoying seeing what's new and up and running. But things being left the way they were, we had these great ominous "big storm coming" kind of hints (the changeling planet, the Ascendants, the Evoq, Sisko's child, the Ghemor/Emissary thing, and more) and inferences about something BIG about to go down with the Prophets and the Ascendants that have been laid out very skillfully over the course of multiple novels and have served to build up an expectation of some kind of major event - leaving all THAT behind just to catch up to the other (admittedly great) storylines would to me represent a great opportunity lost. I mean it would be a serious case of leaving us hanging! Not the same thing as filling in back-story and other time line 'gaps', which would be fine ala what the "Lost Years" and other novels have done. I don't need to know what Sisko had for breakfast from 2379-2380, but I do wanna know if the Ohalu prophecies come true, etc., etc.

Though I am also very interested in seeing what it was like for DS9 during the Destiny series, and in generally having the major Treks over-lap more (I know, not everybody reads every iteration of the 24th C. Trek, but its so rewarding when they intermix, even cursorily) and not have DS9 just seemingly exist in its own universe. It would just be a shame (broken record alert) to see these great set-ups be sacrificed for the sake of unity. As it is, we had to take Dax's few hints and expressions of a desire for something more than her DS9 duties in the DS9 novels and kind of "fill in the gaps" ourselves as to her eventual path as seen in Destiny. Now, that worked, in my opinion, and had enough established about her path post-Avatar to make sense and not seem jarring. But it wouldn't be the same for someone in the next DS9 novel to sort of say "Wow, I can't believe we had to beat the Ascendants and then the Borg back to back like that, and now this Typhon thing! Oh well..." and have that be the end of it.

Come on Pocket Books new editors! Don't let us down!

 

[Christopher]

Then it would be more a matter of enjoying seeing what's new and up and running. But things being left the way they were, we had these great ominous "big storm coming" kind of hints (the changeling planet, the Ascendants, the Evoq, Sisko's child, the Ghemor/Emissary thing, and more) and inferences about something BIG about to go down with the Prophets and the Ascendants that have been laid out very skillfully over the course of multiple novels and have served to build up an expectation of some kind of major event - leaving all THAT behind just to catch up to the other (admittedly great) storylines would to me represent a great opportunity lost.

As has been ably pointed out in previous threads, there's nothing about the Ascendant/Eav'oq storyline or the Dominion storyline that requires an immediate resolution. Indeed, arguably much of the post-finale DS9 series has been about revisiting plot threads that were dormant for years -- the "Conspiracy" parasites, Opaka, the various missing Orbs, the Orb fragment from "The Storyteller," etc. There's no reason why the pending storylines in DS9 couldn't be structured so that things don't build to a climax until 2381 or '82. After all, it's not like this is a real universe running by itself and we'll miss stuff if we're not paying attention. The writers can easily restructure the storyline so that the payoff comes when they want it to come.

 

[langdonboom]

Then it would be more a matter of enjoying seeing what's new and up and running. But things being left the way they were, we had these great ominous "big storm coming" kind of hints (the changeling planet, the Ascendants, the Evoq, Sisko's child, the Ghemor/Emissary thing, and more) and inferences about something BIG about to go down with the Prophets and the Ascendants that have been laid out very skillfully over the course of multiple novels and have served to build up an expectation of some kind of major event - leaving all THAT behind just to catch up to the other (admittedly great) storylines would to me represent a great opportunity lost.

As has been ably pointed out in previous threads, there's nothing about the Ascendant/Eav'oq storyline or the Dominion storyline that requires an immediate resolution. Indeed, arguably much of the post-finale DS9 series has been about revisiting plot threads that were dormant for years -- the "Conspiracy" parasites, Opaka, the various missing Orbs, the Orb fragment from "The Storyteller," etc. There's no reason why the pending storylines in DS9 couldn't be structured so that things don't build to a climax until 2381 or '82. After all, it's not like this is a real universe running by itself and we'll miss stuff if we're not paying attention. The writers can easily restructure the storyline so that the payoff comes when they want it to come.

I apologize for not having read those previous threads, I am new to these boards after having just caught up on the past 9 years worth of relaunch books in about 2 years!

But as to your comment, I don't know if I agree that there's nothing about those storylines that requires an immediate resolution, but of course crafty storytelling could perhaps address certain audience objections if a large span of time had to be skipped. To me there seem to be more than a few major threads set-up here that do seem to imply something going to happen sooner than five years, and beg for, if not resolution, at least addressing and furthering, but of course if well written anything is possible.

And also of course its not a real universe (did you really have to remind me?) but certain real-world requirements of publishing might tend to impose a bit higher degree of suspension of disbelief on careful readers than in a perfect scenario where schedules and business realities drive certain things. And so be it. As you say, the writers could treat it skillfully and find a way to make it work. I do believe the saying "the greater the limits, the greater the art".

But between the current state of the Dominion (what is that giant dead planet? Where did all the changelings go?), the immediate impact of the Evoq returning to the galaxy on the Bajorans (which was sort of skimmed over upon Opaka's return to Bajor) and the return of the war-minded Ascendants (did they go away for thousands of years just to reveal themselves to Opaka... and then disappear for 4 years or so? I guess I could buy that, but it would be a real tease!) and Ghemor saying "I am the fire!", it seems like it will take some seriously fancy justifications to make this all seem natural and unforced if not followed up on in a time frame longer than a year or two. Things like the parasites and the fate of Opaka and the orb fragment (though I loved how they all were handled) were long since left hanging, not one or two books ago, and therefore don't seem to me to have had the same momentum in terms of begging for resolution.

But I promise you I will be there for whatever comes. I have not been generally let down by a Pocket post-relaunch book so far and the mind-blowing factor has been consistently and unbelievably high so consider me spoiled...
​

 

[apenpaap]

After all, it's not like this is a real universe running by itself and we'll miss stuff if we're not paying attention.

BLASPHEMY!!!

 

[JD]

But between the current state of the Dominion (what is that giant dead planet? Where did all the changelings go?), the immediate impact of the Evoq returning to the galaxy on the Bajorans (which was sort of skimmed over upon Opaka's return to Bajor) and the return of the war-minded Ascendants (did they go away for thousands of years just to reveal themselves to Opaka... and then disappear for 4 years or so? I guess I could buy that, but it would be a real tease!) and Ghemor saying "I am the fire!", it seems like it will take some seriously fancy justifications to make this all seem natural and unforced if not followed up on in a time frame longer than a year or two.
​

I can see plenty of reasons why those threads don't need to be addressed immediately, time wise.
First off, I don't remember the giant dead planet, and all we know about the Changelings is that they left and since we don't know what direction they were going in or where they were headed there is no way to say how long it will take to find them. IMO everything that we really need to know about the Eav'oq ATM we already know, so I really don't see anything that must be addressed right this moment. Sure the Bajorans still haven't really dealt with them, but that's the kind of thing that can easily be dealt with in the past tense. As for the Ascendants, all that was established was that they were gathering, there was nothing established about how long it will take for that to happen. So I really don't see any problem with waiting until The Rough Beasts of Empire, or maybe even a book or two after it (if the series even stays post Destiny, right now we don't even know if that will be the case) to deal with these issues.

 

[Thrawn]

^ I agree. I actually made a whole thread about this earlier:

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=103181

The jist of it: I actually think taking some time before continuing makes MORE sense than immediate follow-ups for most of the plots right now.

 

[langdonboom]

I don't remember the giant dead planet, and all we know about the Changelings is that they left and since we don't know what direction they were going in or where they were headed there is no way to say how long it will take to find them. IMO everything that we really need to know about the Eav'oq ATM we already know, so I really don't see anything that must be addressed right this moment. Sure the Bajorans still haven't really dealt with them, but that's the kind of thing that can easily be dealt with in the past tense. As for the Ascendants, all that was established was that they were gathering, there was nothing established about how long it will take for that to happen. So I really don't see any problem with waiting until The Rough Beasts of Empire, or maybe even a book or two after it (if the series even stays post Destiny, right now we don't even know if that will be the case) to deal with these issues.

Hey, I'm willing to go with the flow, of course, but I obviously totally disagree, especially because I remember the giant changeling planet. I suppose if we forget about certain carefully laid plot threads, then we'll all be okay no matter what!

But if you recall, the giant dead planet that made the changelings all take off may or may not have been some kind of Changeling god which was a huge part of the whole Taran'atar-visits-the-female-Changeling thing as well as the Laas/Odo becoming the 'entire' dominion storyline.

Sure, the Ascendants were gathering, and then at the end of Soul Key Iliana Gehmor has her badass one-liner "I am the fire" which seems to portend dangerous things to come.

To me, also, the re-emergence of the Evoq from their seclusion and the re-alignment of the Idran system does seem to be a spark that could/should ignite whatever the Ascendants are interested in doing, now that the Evoq are visible again, after so many years, sooner than 5 years later. It feels like a cocked gun to me, and I wanna see it go off!

And since I'm listing my personal desires, I also really want to see how the faith of the Bajorans is affected by the Evoq being the Prophet's 'other children' and we only got a tiny taste of that since it was first proposed. It can be handled any way the editors/authors want, but its still my desire to see it fleshed out to its fullest extent, rather than summarized. But perhaps this is a case of an embarrassment of riches in terms of plot possibilities, and something will have to give.

AND we've also not yet mentioned here the Even Odd's mysterious encounter that ended the Soul Key. I agree we don't need to know "right this second" any of this stuff, but a big 5 year gap without anything happening on these issues still seems like a stretch to me (though of course, I'm ready to be blown away again if in fact this has to happen but can be done cleverly...)

As with all things, clearly there are varying opinions, and granted whatever we write here will have very little impact on what actually happens (despite the wonderful presence here of some of the great Trek authors directly involved), but I for one feel primed and led into some meaty pay-off territory, nevermind everything that's happened with the Caeliar/Borg since last we saw DS9, which I am also highly curious to see the effects of.

Disagree as we may, I am glad to be able to chat with some fellow enthusiasts (and the authors!) who clearly care as much as I do about what happens with these stories, even if we don't feel the same way about the direction we want it to go. Thanks, guys.

 

[langdonboom]

^ I agree. I actually made a whole thread about this earlier:

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=103181

The jist of it: I actually think taking some time before continuing makes MORE sense than immediate follow-ups for most of the plots right now.

Thrawn,

Hey, I just read your other thread's opening post -- great stuff! You make a lot of good points. And at the risk of doubling the chats on this topic, I actually do agree with you about most of those storylines.... Cardasia, Trill, Vaughn, Ezri, Shar, Mirror Universe, Bajor/Federation -- I am totally on board with these stories being done enough for a jump. But as you can tell from my non-stop harping on it, I do think that the Evoq, Dominion/Changling god, Sisko (the Avatar at least), Ghemor/Emissary and Taran'atar stories (some of which your original post leaves out) ended on enough of a cliffhanger that going "FIVE YEARS LATER" would be doing them a storytelling disservice, at best. To me these storylines are dangling, not the same as what happened to Sulu between ST V and IV, or what happens between Beneath the Raptor's Wing and "The Cage", etc (Mr. Bennett). These are dangling set-ups that tantalized the audience with "oooh! what's going to happen now?", as opposed to just being gaps in the total history of Star Trek.

To me the main drawbacks of the jump is the fact that we have two choices -- either to have the events hinted at here played "off screen" as it were, and we pick up on our heroes years after such seemingly important events, which would be disappointing, but it would be better to my sense of 'story world logic' than the other option, which is to have none of the things I quoted above result in any major developments (again, in story logic) occur due to them, leaving our heroes essentially unchanged because no major plot was advanced in this story world on these counts - for instance, does Odo just not care about what that giant changling planet is and do nothing on it for 5 years? Big audience objection, to me. Does the Ghemor/Emissary just sorta chill out for a while after learning her 'purpose'? Does Taran'atar take 5 years to respond to the Even Odd's distress signal? And the big daddy of them all, do the Ascendants just let the Evoq, who are now back in our space/time (clearly they weren't hiding just for fun) and the Bajorans, who they seemingly feel are infidels who must die due to their worshop of the Prophets, enjoy their lives for 5 years while DS9 deals with the Borg and Typhon Pact? Again -- maybe, but it isn't optimal to my sense of the stories as set-up so far.

But with that said, November 2010 can't get here fast enough either way! I might actually have to read some non-Trek books for a change... or maybe get into SCE? Haven't tried them yet.

 

[happydave]

I'm not worried about the five year jump because I remember reading DRG3's books "The 34th Rule" and "Mission Gamma I: Twilight". You can not describe the guy's writing style as 'breif'. Assuming the editors are generous with word limits I could see him telling a coherent story that spans the five years in one book. Really; it's quite the oppourunity -- most Trek books aren't allowed to explore years at a time.

I do really like the fact he's writing Rough Beasts of Empire due to the way Twilight was written. When I started reading Twilight it infuriated me with it's slow pacing. I just wanted to go visit the Gamma Quadrant and the characters were all hanging around DS9 waiting. But after a bit I finally grasped that the book was slightly different in pace to what I expected and I ended up loving its detail.

So now when he's listed as the author for Beasts he's probably going to give us a decent amount of small details in regards to the missing years. It should be good.

 

[DS9Continuing]

Well, I'd be careful about that kind of speculation, just in case. "He could" can often become "he will," which can then become "he promised," which only leads to disappointment and bad feelings if he actually, you know... doesn't.

As for what comes after The Soul Key, I had myself a big brainstorming session lately, and then definitely plenty of stories that could make what I'm choosing to think of as season 10, without it necessarily involving the Ascendants. In fact, one of my ideas leads us into a major confrontation with Section 31 instead. I can't say more without breaking the rules, although my fingers are just itching to type it.

 

[JD]

But if you recall, the giant dead planet that made the changelings all take off may or may not have been some kind of Changeling god which was a huge part of the whole Taran'atar-visits-the-female-Changeling thing as well as the Laas/Odo becoming the 'entire' dominion storyline.

Ok, that's what I thought. But I still don't see where we need to see every moment of Odo and Laas looking for the other Founders and/or changing the Dominion.

Sure, the Ascendants were gathering, and then at the end of Soul Key Iliana Gehmor has her badass one-liner "I am the fire" which seems to portend dangerous things to come.

Yeah, but we still don't know exactly what these things are or how long it will take. All we know is that they are pissed about the Bajorans or Eav'oq.

To me, also, the re-emergence of the Evoq from their seclusion and the re-alignment of the Idran system does seem to be a spark that could/should ignite whatever the Ascendants are interested in doing, now that the Evoq are visible again, after so many years, sooner than 5 years later. It feels like a cocked gun to me, and I wanna see it go off!

Yeah, but the Ascendants have to get to a position where they could be a threat first.

And since I'm listing my personal desires, I also really want to see how the faith of the Bajorans is affected by the Evoq being the Prophet's 'other children' and we only got a tiny taste of that since it was first proposed. It can be handled any way the editors/authors want, but its still my desire to see it fleshed out to its fullest extent, rather than summarized. But perhaps this is a case of an embarrassment of riches in terms of plot possibilities, and something will have to give.

I really don't see where we need to see every second of this. Just because we jump ahead 5 years doesn't mean they won't still be learning about each other. In fact I think this is the kind of thing that could almost work better in small flash backes instead of happening in real time for multiple books.

AND we've also not yet mentioned here the Even Odd's mysterious encounter that ended the Soul Key. I agree we don't need to know "right this second" any of this stuff, but a big 5 year gap without anything happening on these issues still seems like a stretch to me (though of course, I'm ready to be blown away again if in fact this has to happen but can be done cleverly...)

Once again, flashbacks.
Now I'm not trying to change your mind, I understand that probably won't happen. I'm just trying to explain my thinking behind what I've been saying.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, but the Ascendants have to get to a position where they could be a threat first.

Right. Hitler became Chancellor of Germany six years before he invaded Poland. It takes time to build up to something that big.

 

[langdonboom]

But if you recall, the giant dead planet....

Ok, that's what I thought. But I still don't see where we need to see every moment of Odo and Laas looking for the other Founders and/or changing the Dominion.

Definitely we don't need to see every minute, nor is that what I'm saying I want. Its just that this is a major development to a major aspect of the DS9 world - to leave us hanging across five years with it is pushing it I think. But again, perhaps some good writing could pick up after so much time and surprise me, and I hope so. I just don't want it minimized or worse, ignored for the greater good of bringing DS9 up to date (which I am also all for, as I said before - I hate that DS9 should exist in a vacuum [caution: incidental space pun]). Even flashbacks would seem to me to be skimping on what "could be" with such a rich development having just occurred. AND the mystery of what that planet/God seems to beg a lot of immediate questions...

Yeah, but we still don't know exactly what these things are or how long it will take. All we know is that they are pissed about the Bajorans or Eav'oq. Yeah, but the Ascendants have to get to a position where they could be a threat first.

Well, my contention is that with the way the Ascendant we've met was speaking, now that they are back in this part of the galaxy, it wouldn't be consistent with their established character to do nothing for five years. Who knows based on what we've seen what kind of threat they already are? They're clearly technologically advanced. Seems to me they're in a position right "now".

[re: Bajorans/Evoq]I really don't see where we need to see every second of this. Just because we jump ahead 5 years doesn't mean they won't still be learning about each other. In fact I think this is the kind of thing that could almost work better in small flash backes instead of happening in real time for multiple books.

Again, I'm not at all asking for "every second" in this or any story. I do hope we get to see the immediate aftermath of their discovery and Opaka's contact with them, which would seem, again, within the established reality of this story and the characters as written, to be required to provoke a dramatic response, especially on the heels of the Ohalu prophecy turmoil within the Bajoran faith. Anything less risks straining my sense of in-story consistency. So I feel set up to see these 'very next moments' after where we left off, not every single moment of the five year gap.

Once again, flashbacks.
Now I'm not trying to change your mind, I understand that probably won't happen. I'm just trying to explain my thinking behind what I've been saying.

I know you're not (and neither am I!), I just love having this discussion with everybody here, so please, don't worry! I appreciate the level of thought that's gone into these answers.

So basically for me I don't see flashbacks as doing justice to such "present tense" dramatic developments as these specific ones (others such as Vaughn, Cardassia, and more would seem to be okay given their state of basic resolution). But as I said before, there might just be an embarrassment of riches in terms of story threads left untied up and realistically we just won't be able to flesh them all out as either originally intended, or personally desirable!

Yeah, but the Ascendants have to get to a position where they could be a threat first.

Right. Hitler became Chancellor of Germany six years before he invaded Poland. It takes time to build up to something that big.

That's an interesting analogy, though it doesn't seem to be a really comfortable fit with the Ascendants. We don't know how big "that big" needs to be, nor if this one Ascendant who Opaka had contact with was a scout, or a leader who needs to raise an army, or what. For all we know the Ascendants are just waiting around the block to hear that the Evoq are back, and can gather immediately.

But hey, I can and have "played along" with so much in Star Trek that for one reason or another had to be less than seamless, so just 'sell' it to me well, and I will do the rest!

 

[Christopher]

That's an interesting analogy, though it doesn't seem to be a really comfortable fit with the Ascendants. We don't know how big "that big" needs to be, nor if this one Ascendant who Opaka had contact with was a scout, or a leader who needs to raise an army, or what. For all we know the Ascendants are just waiting around the block to hear that the Evoq are back, and can gather immediately.

Except, again, it's not like these are events that have an independent existence. That's not going to be the case if it's not what the authors and editors decide will be the case. If the decision had been made to continue the story right away, then the Ascendant plot would've been shaped to fit that timeline; but since the decision's been made to jump forward, it stands to reason that the Ascendant plot would be shaped to fit that timeline instead. So "for all we know" is not really a meaningful statement here. The way it unfolds will be shaped by the needs of the narrative. It's not like the books will "miss" something if they fail to cover a particular year, because the pace at which the events unfold will be determined by the choice of how to tell the story.

 

[langdonboom]

That's an interesting analogy, though it doesn't seem to be a really comfortable fit with the Ascendants. We don't know how big "that big" needs to be, nor if this one Ascendant who Opaka had contact with was a scout, or a leader who needs to raise an army, or what. For all we know the Ascendants are just waiting around the block to hear that the Evoq are back, and can gather immediately.

Except, again, it's not like these are events that have an independent existence. That's not going to be the case if it's not what the authors and editors decide will be the case. If the decision had been made to continue the story right away, then the Ascendant plot would've been shaped to fit that timeline; but since the decision's been made to jump forward, it stands to reason that the Ascendant plot would be shaped to fit that timeline instead. So "for all we know" is not really a meaningful statement here. The way it unfolds will be shaped by the needs of the narrative. It's not like the books will "miss" something if they fail to cover a particular year, because the pace at which the events unfold will be determined by the choice of how to tell the story.

You're right, and "for all we know" was an imprecise choice of words. My implication is that from what we DO know, mostly from Opaka's encounter but also from the input of the Evoq in Rising Son, they appear to be "back" and on the warpath now that they are again in "this neck of the woods." To me this implies some kind of immediate (or at least sooner than 5 years, remember this is what we're talking about) action about to take place in this story.

Your interesting analogy about Hitler/Poland seemed to project a bit more onto the story than what we've been given in the actual narrative, as I read it, namely an assumption that they're not in a position to take any action - that was what I tried to express in my previous post.

I suppose we just disagree on the "needs of the narrative" -- clearly I felt after reading the past few DS9 books that something was imminent, you and others do not. But from the behavior as depicted in the novels of the Ascendants, and the "trigger event" of the Evoq returning to this reality in the Gamma Quadrant, I feel like I've been led here, and deliberately (and gratefully!)

As for "events with an independent existence" I'm sure as a veteran Trek author you recognize the need for any story to at least remain consistent unto itself, in terms of character behavior as well as narrative events -- in this way once something is established, it does have a degree of independent existence.

At bottom, we just disagree with what that might be in this case.