UFO Hunters are idiots!

[Checkmate]

No way. Blackened text = aliens. You've convinced me completely. There's no other explanation. NONE. Flat out PROOF that can NOT be denied. If it's blacked out, it has to be an alien conspiracy.

In fact, with a quick search on Google, I've found TONS of alien proof!

http://thenonist.com/images/par.jpg
http://gigaom.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/vz2.JPG
http://bailoutsleuth.com/ui/pwcc1.png

What's even worse is that I have found UNDENIABLE PROOF that they're even using forums/instant messengers to plot and scheme their evil alien plans.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2604/3718094517_7e39558765.jpg

And here's proof that they use Google in regards to their medical concerns!

http://blogoscoped.com/files/google-health/11.png

THEY'RE EVERYWHERE! Quick! Someone hook me up with a tinfoil hat!!!



Man, aliens are just so super awesomely smart. They can convince anyone and everyone to black out text relating to them (because, naturally, any blackened out text = aliens no matter what), and they have Super Science(tm!) technology that lets them get photographed ALL the time, but it makes it so that every single photo is always blurry! Even if it's taken with bad ass cameras in this high definition age where practically everyone has a self-focusing high quality camera in their pocket.

Aliens are real.

This all proves it.

 

[byron lomax]

I've had an interest in UFOs since childhood, and although it remains an area of interest for me, I'm pretty doubtful that we've really been "visited". I think it's right to have a sceptical attitude, but not a dismissive one - some cases, such as Cash-Landrum, Shag Harbour, the Yukon "mothership", even Rendelshem Forest - show that the phenomenon is worth taking seriously, though I agree there's never really been any concrete proof of aliens. If they are aliens at all, of course...

One of my favourite current UFO researchers in Paul Kimball - he adopts such a level-headed attitude and still shows how the subject should be taken with interest (and in doing so of course takes a lot of scorn from both true believers and hardcore debunkers). His blog, The Other Side of Truth (http://redstarfilms.blogspot.com/) is well worth a read, especially the archives.

I do think the paranoid conspiracy culture that has grown around the phenomenon, to such an extent that the two now seem inseperable, is unfortunate. As Jacques Vallee said, in response to claims of a vast shadowy conspiracy hiding proof of alien life from the rest of the world: "who takes out the garbage?"

 

[Zachary Smith]

On the subject of the blacked-out documents that Friedman shows during lectures: Is there a better visual aid to demonstrate the ridiculous amount of government secrecy surrounding UFOs?

Last year I was doing some work on my family tree and requested a few documents from the government about my grandfather. He worked for the military during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Every single document I got back from them had large swathes of blacked out text.

SO OH MY GOD MY GRANDFATHER IS AN ALIEN!!! AIYEEE! BLACKED OUT TEXT IS ABSOLUTE PROOF! OMG OMG OMG! ALIENS ARE REAL!!! <wags his hands in the air as he runs around in circles>

There's not enough emoticons to express that kind of stupidity.

At least you recognize your own stupidity.

 

[Checkmate]

No. It's more that you're incapable of recognizing yours.

Or would you care to explain to me why blacked out text is absolute proof of an alien conspiracy only when it applies to certain documents. And that when you see blacked out text on any other documents, that's honky dory?

I'll give you a hint: You can't explain it because it's bullshit. There's numerous reasons for them to black out text. My personal favorite theory is that they do it solely to fuck with you clowns.

Oh, and who, exactly, is responsible for blacking out all these documents? It must be the highest top secret agent in the world! I mean, he clearly knows everything about the conspiracy in order to black out even the most microscopic of clues in every single document that gets released! And it can't possibly be more than one or two people as there's no way possible for them to coordinate that well on the sheer bulk of the documents being processed and sent out. I mean, this is the government we're talking about. We know how talented they are at being professional and competent in everything they do. And no one ever leaks anything anywhere to anyone. Because they're that hardcore. Especially since they've obviously been doing an all but flawless job since at least the Roswell incident!

Conspiracy nuts are nuts regardless of the conspiracy. Sorry to hear that you're one of them.

 

[Zachary Smith]

No. It's more that you're incapable of recognizing yours.

Or would you care to explain to me why blacked out text is absolute proof of an alien conspiracy only when it applies to certain documents. And that when you see blacked out text on any other documents, that's honky dory?

Blacked out text is absolute proof ONLY that there is information underneath the darkened areas that SOMEONE didn't want others to see. That's all. It doesn't prove an "alien conspiracy" in the least. Rather, what it DOES do is raise QUESTIONS--primarily it raises the question of why, IF there is "nothing" to these "stories" and they are all easily explained away as mis-identifications, hoaxes etc. WHAT is there to KEEP secret? Why is so much information about "nothing" on a "non-issue" being withheld?

Dude, the blacked out text PROVES nothing. It RAISES questions.

I'll give you a hint: You can't explain it because it's bullshit. There's numerous reasons for them to black out text. My personal favorite theory is that they do it solely to fuck with you clowns.

What sense is there in them MAKING more headaches for themselves by "fucking with" people? Never mind the possible legal implications that come from tampering with official records just to "fuck with" folks? There MAY well be very good reasons for the large swathes of blacked out information in these records, none of which might pertain to UFOs. However the IMPLICIT and OBVIOUS conclusion is that there is information contained therein that the government DOES NOT WANT KNOWN and, by virtue of the fact that not ALL the information is being released--THEY DEFINITELY KNOW more than they're telling.

Oh, and who, exactly, is responsible for blacking out all these documents? It must be the highest top secret agent in the world! I mean, he clearly knows everything about the conspiracy in order to black out even the most microscopic of clues in every single document that gets released! And it can't possibly be more than one or two people as there's no way possible for them to coordinate that well on the sheer bulk of the documents being processed and sent out. I mean, this is the government we're talking about. We know how talented they are at being professional and competent in everything they do. And no one ever leaks anything anywhere to anyone. Because they're that hardcore. Especially since they've obviously been doing an all but flawless job since at least the Roswell incident!

Conspiracy nuts are nuts regardless of the conspiracy. Sorry to hear that you're one of them.

Actually, I'm NOT a "conspiracy nut". I hung that hat up a long time ago when I realized Oswald DID act alone and the Warren Report was essentially on the money.

It doesn't take a genius to recognize that not ALL the questions on the subject of UFOs that CAN be answered by the government ARE being answered. If they were, there'd be no blacked out sections in the documents, would there?

Your strident and knee-jerk reaction is one of hostility and perhaps even fear. You don't express yourself as either a reasonable or REASONED person in your responses and, really, it's kind of sad that you don't seem aware that you're operating from EXACTLY the kind of reactionary position you decry when you point the finger at "conspiracy nuts".

BTW, grow up some, dude. You come off as decidedly immature.

 

[Checkmate]

Blacked out text is absolute proof ONLY that there is information underneath the darkened areas that SOMEONE didn't want others to see.

I'll be succinct in replying to this: Duh.

That's all. It doesn't prove an "alien conspiracy" in the least. Rather, what it DOES do is raise QUESTIONS--primarily it raises the question of why, IF there is "nothing" to these "stories" and they are all easily explained away as mis-identifications, hoaxes etc. WHAT is there to KEEP secret? Why is so much information about "nothing" on a "non-issue" being withheld?

Why is anything classified secret? Or right, because it's a secret. I mean, obviously if it's not about an alien conspiracy, it can't POSSIBLY be about anything else. That's what you're saying here, isn't it? It's either A or B. A = Alien Conspiracy, B = Bullshit To Cover Up Alien Conspiracy.

Dude, the blacked out text PROVES nothing. It RAISES questions.

That has fuck all to do with aliens.

What sense is there in them MAKING more headaches for themselves by "fucking with" people?

Yeah, because whether they were doing it or not (and I seriously doubt they were/are -- like I said, just a personal theory that might better be called a desperate wish), you nutjobs would totally stop annoying them about it. Am I right or am I right?

It doesn't take a genius to recognize that not ALL the questions on the subject of UFOs that CAN be answered by the government ARE being answered. If they were, there'd be no blacked out sections in the documents, would there?

Maybe -- just maybe -- the blackened out text has absolutely nothing to do with an alien conspiracy, but has everything to do with the actual top-secret projects (or whatever else) the nutjobs are confusing as part of the alien conspiracy.

Or what, do you expect the government to add notes to their blackened out texts? "Sorry, we're blacking this out because it relates to our Human Cloning/Biological Weapon/Super Soldier Formula/Whatever experiments we were doing at the time, not some kind of alien coverup. Our bad."

Your strident and knee-jerk reaction is one of hostility and perhaps even fear.

No. It's a knee-jerk reaction to voluntary mental retardation. You say something stupid, you deserve to be mocked for it. It's a personal philosophy.

BTW, grow up some, dude. You come off as decidedly immature.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't give a fuck about what a "former" conspiracy nutjob thinks of me.

 

[Zachary Smith]

^^

I'm going to guess that you are under 23 years old, aren't you? I wonder if you're old enough to drive, given the way you behave.

 

[Lookingglassman]

These guys will never get to the bottom of the "truth". They are wasting their time. I have worked for the US govt for 16 years and I know how ruthless and dirty they are. You guys would be surprised at some of the things that go on that are illegal, but the govt dont care because who is going to hold them accountable?

Something like secret alien technology will NEVER come to the light. Hell smaller secrets than this are still secret. For instance: I attended two secret briefs once on something that is widely reported in books, magazines and articles. What is printed is entirely wrong and I laugh whenever I read about it because I know the real deal and have seen the evidence, yet the media keeps reporting it as if they know what it is. It is not really a super duper great secret, but it just goes to show you how a little secret can be kept from the public for decades and the same "facts" that are wrong will be reported over and over again.

 

[bigdaddy]

They actually aren't. They will never prove a damn thing because people will see what they want to see, either for or against alien UFOs.

They actually are.

UFOs and aliens would be painfully easy to prove if they were real. Especially if, as the crackpots say, they've been coming to hang out with us for thousands of years. Kind of odd that after thousands of years there hasn't been a single piece of actual evidence supporting them.

And no, blurry photos of a dim light in the distance and blackened text from government papers isn't evidence.

"Absence of Proof = Absolute Proof, OMG!" That seems to be the mantra of those idiots.

And what do you consider proof?

Once again you prove my point, people will see whatever they want. There could be an alien crashing into NYC and come out and say "Hi" and people still wouldn't believe it.

 

[Bad Bishop]

These guys will never get to the bottom of the "truth". They are wasting their time. I have worked for the US govt for 16 years and I know how ruthless and dirty they are. You guys would be surprised at some of the things that go on that are illegal, but the govt dont care because who is going to hold them accountable?

You're right. Where there is secrecy there is no accountability. But what would you suggest for UFO researchers? Should they just abandon all their work?

 

[Zachary Smith]

These guys will never get to the bottom of the "truth". They are wasting their time. I have worked for the US govt for 16 years and I know how ruthless and dirty they are. You guys would be surprised at some of the things that go on that are illegal, but the govt dont care because who is going to hold them accountable?

Something like secret alien technology will NEVER come to the light. Hell smaller secrets than this are still secret. For instance: I attended two secret briefs once on something that is widely reported in books, magazines and articles. What is printed is entirely wrong and I laugh whenever I read about it because I know the real deal and have seen the evidence, yet the media keeps reporting it as if they know what it is. It is not really a super duper great secret, but it just goes to show you how a little secret can be kept from the public for decades and the same "facts" that are wrong will be reported over and over again.

You realize, of course, that your continued insistence that you "banished" a "demon" from your sight by invoking the name of "Jesus Christ" invalidates you as a reliable witness in EVERY capacity on any subject, don't you?

 

[Lindley]

Blacked out text is absolute proof ONLY that there is information underneath the darkened areas that SOMEONE didn't want others to see. That's all. It doesn't prove an "alien conspiracy" in the least. Rather, what it DOES do is raise QUESTIONS--primarily it raises the question of why, IF there is "nothing" to these "stories" and they are all easily explained away as mis-identifications, hoaxes etc. WHAT is there to KEEP secret? Why is so much information about "nothing" on a "non-issue" being withheld?

Without knowing the nature of the documents, my guess would be that the blacked-out portions would relate to specific sensor capabilities or operational patterns related to the acquisition of said data. Such information could well still be considered classified.

Technical details which could be used to effectively counter sensor capabilities are one of many examples of information which needs to be classified, but is not necessarily going to be fascinating to the average American just *because* it's classified.

 

[Zachary Smith]

Blacked out text is absolute proof ONLY that there is information underneath the darkened areas that SOMEONE didn't want others to see. That's all. It doesn't prove an "alien conspiracy" in the least. Rather, what it DOES do is raise QUESTIONS--primarily it raises the question of why, IF there is "nothing" to these "stories" and they are all easily explained away as mis-identifications, hoaxes etc. WHAT is there to KEEP secret? Why is so much information about "nothing" on a "non-issue" being withheld?

Without knowing the nature of the documents, my guess would be that the blacked-out portions would relate to specific sensor capabilities or operational patterns related to the acquisition of said data. Such information could well still be considered classified.

Technical details which could be used to effectively counter sensor capabilities are one of many examples of information which needs to be classified, but is not necessarily going to be fascinating to the average American just *because* it's classified.

You could well be right, too. The fact that information IS being with-held, however valid the reason might be, is fuel for speculation that something revelatory or ground-breaking is being held back. It CREATES suspicion instead of relieving doubt. Further, in many cases reports which containing black-out information appear otherwise totally innocuous. They're NOT concerned with someone trespassing on or near Military R&D sites or have any sensible or obvious tell-tale clues as to why sections are blocked out. Some yahoo in a rural place sees something unusual, makes a report and later on some UFO investigator requests the material and wholesale chunks are blotted out. What, if there is NOTHING at the heart of the matter, is being concealed?

I'll grant the likely by FAR the majority of blacked out material is over-protection of meaningless details. I recall reading a report that the FBI "spied" on a concert given by John Lennon in the early 1970's, recorded and CLASSIFIED as "Top Secret" the SONG LYRICS he sang, which were available on the back of the album. I would suspect that the government knows VERY little more than the general population about the issue of UFOs (with all due apologizes to our dear friend Checkmate). But, regardless, they DO know MORE than they say. Whether there is anything interesting there or their secretive behavior is purely procedural in nature is subject for speculation. Contrary to wild claims otherwise, I'm NOT a "conspiracy" nut. It's just inescapable the government DOES KNOW more than they allow out. The fact that information is being withheld demonstrates that. NO two ways about it. It is also true and probably likely that WHAT they hold back is mundane indeed but is DOES create an environment ripe for suspicion and speculation.

 

[Nardpuncher]

I read somewhere that since Area 51 is really just a testing ground for experimental aircraft, when people started saying that they were seeing UFOs and all that the Air Force was more than happy to let them go ahead and thnk that then go around telling people they've seen the SR-71 or stealth bomber.
Also, Dennis Miller had a funny retort for when people say they wanted to go into Are 51 but were denied entry and thought this was proof of a cover-up. He said "What?! You think you walk up to any other government installation and they give you slippers and a glass of champagne?!"

 

[Nardpuncher]

I wouldn't bring up Stanton Friedman if you wanted to maintain any crediblity.

Spare me your unsolicited guidance. I've read three of Friedman's books and I've also attended one of his lectures. I am very familiar with his career and the respect he enjoys within his field.

I went to one of his free lectures at the University Of Winnipeg in about 1996 and he'd show documents that he'd requested from the government but that had large parts blacked out as proof of a conspiracy. His photos at the end were so laughable I though he was pulling our legs and was soon going to show more believable photos.

I'm sorry I wasn't there to see you take him down a peg. Tell me that you stood up and spoke, picking apart every one of his arguments and exhibits. That is what you did at the lecture, right? That would have been something to see!

And no...I don't car one little bit if he's a nuclear physicist. He's always sure to mention that as though it matters.

But it does matter, because the professional credentials of UFO investigators are always under close scrutiny.

It would be easy to attack Friedman's competence if he were a simple elementary school teacher or car salesman who investigated UFOs during his free time. If Friedman's experience as a nuclear physicist doesn't give him any credibility, then what would?

Here's something--Friedman never earned his Ph.D because he wanted to go to work immediately after college. Is this a problem?

On the subject of the blacked-out documents that Friedman shows during lectures--seriously, is there a better visual aid that demonstrates the ridiculous amount of government secrecy surrounding UFOs?

Please tell me how being a nuclear physicist matters. I know it means he knows a lot about the atom and can probably do some diifcult calculus, but really...what does it have to do with UFOs? And hwat about the hundreds if not thousands of scientists that will have nothing to do with something like UFOs?
And he's well respected in his field you say? Do you mean the field of ufologists? You must do better than that.

 

[QuasarVM]

I wouldn't bring up Stanton Friedman if you wanted to maintain any crediblity.

Spare me your unsolicited guidance. I've read three of Friedman's books and I've also attended one of his lectures. I am very familiar with his career and the respect he enjoys within his field.


I'm sorry I wasn't there to see you take him down a peg. Tell me that you stood up and spoke, picking apart every one of his arguments and exhibits. That is what you did at the lecture, right? That would have been something to see!

And no...I don't car one little bit if he's a nuclear physicist. He's always sure to mention that as though it matters.

But it does matter, because the professional credentials of UFO investigators are always under close scrutiny.

It would be easy to attack Friedman's competence if he were a simple elementary school teacher or car salesman who investigated UFOs during his free time. If Friedman's experience as a nuclear physicist doesn't give him any credibility, then what would?

Here's something--Friedman never earned his Ph.D because he wanted to go to work immediately after college. Is this a problem?

On the subject of the blacked-out documents that Friedman shows during lectures--seriously, is there a better visual aid that demonstrates the ridiculous amount of government secrecy surrounding UFOs?

Please tell me how being a nuclear physicist matters. I know it means he knows a lot about the atom and can probably do some diifcult calculus, but really...what does it have to do with UFOs? And hwat about the hundreds if not thousands of scientists that will have nothing to do with something like UFOs?
And he's well respected in his field you say? Do you mean the field of ufologists? You must do better than that.

If you think Friedman is a "Kool Aid Drinker" you are sadly mistaken. He's been one of the most intelligent and objective researchers in the field. He has pursued those who have made incredible claims and determined their veracity.

He's never been afraid to point out frauds -- even when others have perpetuated their fraudulent claims.

Stanton Friedman is intelligent and has been objective all along on the subject of UFOs. And he's never said ALL UFOs are alien spacecraft...but he does believe SOME COULD be. These are some of the cases that NO ONE has been able to adequately explain -- and there are a good handful of those.

By the way, the burden of proof that some are NOT ETs is just as much on the so-called intellectual nay-sayers as it is on those making the claims of ET. That's something that continually is conveniently forgotten and overlooked. "No it isn't" is not a scientific or measurable repudiation of the original claims.

To attack Stanton Friedman for bothering to research UFOs is silly. By your logic, if we'd never said "Hey what is that bacteria?" we'd never have developed penicillin...or pasteurization.

UFOs are worth researching and studying and they always will be. I really don't understand this almost militaristic aversion to those who bother to look.

I'm a skeptic, but out of all the claims, it only takes ONE real and verifiable visitation to become a history making monumental event.

 

[Unicron]

UFOs and aliens would be painfully easy to prove if they were real. Especially if, as the crackpots say, they've been coming to hang out with us for thousands of years. Kind of odd that after thousands of years there hasn't been a single piece of actual evidence supporting them.

* shrugs *

I'm not so sure of that, although I do tend to be very skeptical of the UFO phenomenon and I agree that there should be more meat on the bones of the theories, so to speak. That being said, many of the people who do see something they consider unidentified (and which they don't automatically assume must be aliens, just unknown) aren't looking for odd things and don't have the best equipment to get more than blurry stuff that's difficult to identify. It just happens. As others have said, what qualifies as valid proof for you?

I'm not convinced yet, personally. I think we'd probably either scare intelligent beings away or send them into fits of laughter. I tend to agree with Zachary when it comes to blacked out text; it certainly doesn't prove a conspiracy, but neither is it logical to think that the government would be completely honest with us if they had recovered alien technology or did know that we were being regularly visited. In that event, I fully believe they'd be as secretive and discreet as possible. I probably would.

 

[Zachary Smith]

^^

I've read a number of Stanton Friedman's books and come away from each one with the ever more reinforced opinion that he is an intellectual snob and holds in contempt anyone who doesn't agree with his reasoning. His texts are littered with little jibes about modern culture and pithy quips about such things as aliens being reluctant to contact us outright because there is no evidence of "intelligent" life on Earth by virtue of nation making war on nation and a LOT of other moralizing scattered about which has nothing to do one way or another with the issue of UFOs.

That said, it's hard really to find much WRONG with Friedman's reasoning in his books. But he doesn't offer much in the way of evidence. He more tries to make his perspective seem more reasonable than any alternative. My opinion is that his best work has been concerning the so-called Majestic-12 papers. He's done tons of research on that subject; one which I had signed off as a hoax a long time ago. Friedman's work on the MJ-12 documents has rekindled my interest in the subject and, while I consider it FAR more likely to be a hoax than truth, the sheer complexity involved in orchestrating a hoax of that magnitude and such subtle detail (including such facts as finding a 15 minute window of opportunity for two people to have met 50 years ago) boggles the mind. Friedman's work on the MJ-12 material has me convinced at present that either the documents ARE real (which is hard to accept) OR that some elements of the government, for reasons I can't conceive, were actively involved in the creation of the hoax. There are simply too many well-oiled variables involved with time-tables and opportunities (or NOT) for meetings and such for the MJ-12 documents to be the work of anything less than VERY VERY bright professional disinformation specialists or they are real. Arrogant and snobbish though he may be, Friedman has made a strong case in this regard.

 

[QuasarVM]

^^

I've read a number of Stanton Friedman's books and come away from each one with the ever more reinforced opinion that he is an intellectual snob and holds in contempt anyone who doesn't agree with his reasoning. His texts are littered with little jibes about modern culture and pithy quips about such things as aliens being reluctant to contact us outright because there is no evidence of "intelligent" life on Earth by virtue of nation making war on nation and a LOT of other moralizing scattered about which has nothing to do one way or another with the issue of UFOs.

That said, it's hard really to find much WRONG with Friedman's reasoning in his books. But he doesn't offer much in the way of evidence. He more tries to make his perspective seem more reasonable than any alternative. My opinion is that his best work has been concerning the so-called Majestic-12 papers. He's done tons of research on that subject; one which I had signed off as a hoax a long time ago. Friedman's work on the MJ-12 documents has rekindled my interest in the subject and, while I consider it FAR more likely to be a hoax than truth, the sheer complexity involved in orchestrating a hoax of that magnitude and such subtle detail (including such facts as finding a 15 minute window of opportunity for two people to have met 50 years ago) boggles the mind. Friedman's work on the MJ-12 material has me convinced at present that either the documents ARE real (which is hard to accept) OR that some elements of the government, for reasons I can't conceive, were actively involved in the creation of the hoax. There are simply too many well-oiled variables involved with time-tables and opportunities (or NOT) for meetings and such for the MJ-12 documents to be the work of anything less than VERY VERY bright professional disinformation specialists or they are real. Arrogant and snobbish though he may be, Friedman has made a strong case in this regard.

Very few people in the scientific community are missing the arrogance gene from what I have been able to ascertain. It's not unique to Friedman by a longshot.

The thing is, if MJ-12 proves to conclusively be a hoax Friedman will be the first one out there shouting to the world that it is.

That's the kind of guy he is. He's not going to try to convince people of something he hasn't confirmed -- or has no proof of. He's not a fraud...and he's trying to find the evidence and proof out there if it exists. There's not a thing wrong with looking under the rock to see what's there -- if anything.

Case in point: Bob Lazar. Everyone and his mother was ready to jump (and DID jump) on the Bob Lazar bandwagon (and that's where a lot of the Area 51 claims came from since he was claiming to have "reverse engineered" an alien craft there) but Friedman was one of the main ones tracing all his claims of where Lazar worked; his education; etc. and found him to be a fraud.

I can't tell you how many UFO documentaries came out AFTER Lazard was proven to be a fraud and yet there he was lying on camera making ridiculous claims that Friedman has proven to be fraudulent.

So, that's just one example...there are others.

Friedman is an objective researcher.

 

[Lookingglassman]

Bad Bishop - I got no problem with UFO researchers who are legitmately trying to find out info, even though it is a waste of time. They will never get real proof except some grainy pictures or films that are out of focus. They will never get anything decent from the govt and no aliens are going to land in their back yards and pose for pictures with them so in the end they are chasing the unattainable.

I do have a problem with these morons on UFO hunters who think they are Billy Bad Ass when it comes to confronting the US govt. They spent an entire episode running around a fence line trying to determine if there was a secret base or not. Anyone with half a brain is going to realize you aint getting nowhere near that base and even if you somehow do manage to sneak on to it, whatever is secret is most likely deep underground where you aint going to get to it. I'm pretty sure the govt is laughing at them. If they ever got too close I'm sure they would meet with an "accident".