UFO Hunters are idiots!

[QuasarVM]

I'm pretty sure the govt is laughing at them.

Yeah, the same way they are laughing at everyone else these days...

 

[Nardpuncher]

All right, you got me,Quasar I guess I was anti-science the whole time. Touche!

 

[Zachary Smith]

^^

I've read a number of Stanton Friedman's books and come away from each one with the ever more reinforced opinion that he is an intellectual snob and holds in contempt anyone who doesn't agree with his reasoning. His texts are littered with little jibes about modern culture and pithy quips about such things as aliens being reluctant to contact us outright because there is no evidence of "intelligent" life on Earth by virtue of nation making war on nation and a LOT of other moralizing scattered about which has nothing to do one way or another with the issue of UFOs.

That said, it's hard really to find much WRONG with Friedman's reasoning in his books. But he doesn't offer much in the way of evidence. He more tries to make his perspective seem more reasonable than any alternative. My opinion is that his best work has been concerning the so-called Majestic-12 papers. He's done tons of research on that subject; one which I had signed off as a hoax a long time ago. Friedman's work on the MJ-12 documents has rekindled my interest in the subject and, while I consider it FAR more likely to be a hoax than truth, the sheer complexity involved in orchestrating a hoax of that magnitude and such subtle detail (including such facts as finding a 15 minute window of opportunity for two people to have met 50 years ago) boggles the mind. Friedman's work on the MJ-12 material has me convinced at present that either the documents ARE real (which is hard to accept) OR that some elements of the government, for reasons I can't conceive, were actively involved in the creation of the hoax. There are simply too many well-oiled variables involved with time-tables and opportunities (or NOT) for meetings and such for the MJ-12 documents to be the work of anything less than VERY VERY bright professional disinformation specialists or they are real. Arrogant and snobbish though he may be, Friedman has made a strong case in this regard.

Very few people in the scientific community are missing the arrogance gene from what I have been able to ascertain. It's not unique to Friedman by a longshot.

The thing is, if MJ-12 proves to conclusively be a hoax Friedman will be the first one out there shouting to the world that it is.

That's the kind of guy he is. He's not going to try to convince people of something he hasn't confirmed -- or has no proof of. He's not a fraud...and he's trying to find the evidence and proof out there if it exists. There's not a thing wrong with looking under the rock to see what's there -- if anything.

Case in point: Bob Lazar. Everyone and his mother was ready to jump (and DID jump) on the Bob Lazar bandwagon (and that's where a lot of the Area 51 claims came from since he was claiming to have "reverse engineered" an alien craft there) but Friedman was one of the main ones tracing all his claims of where Lazar worked; his education; etc. and found him to be a fraud.

I can't tell you how many UFO documentaries came out AFTER Lazard was proven to be a fraud and yet there he was lying on camera making ridiculous claims that Friedman has proven to be fraudulent.

So, that's just one example...there are others.

Friedman is an objective researcher.

I agree. He is an objective researcher and, as I said, his work is what convinced me that whatever the truth of the MJ-12 documents, it's more than a simple and transparent hoax perpetrated by a couple guys who wanted to sell a book (Moore and Shandeara?? IIRC). It's either a VERY complicated and sophisticated hoax or the real deal. And I think Friedman would be at the front of the line if he found proof either way. He is a man of integrity, I believe.

That said, you have to admit that the preponderance of leverage in his books is basically to out-argue the opposition and make his contention that UFOs ARE alien visitors seem more likely than any other explanation. For all his research, he has produced precious little evidence to show along side his volumes of well-reasoned but still speculative contentions.

And I do very much wish he'd leave his moralizing at the doorstep. Continually referring to humanity as a "primitive" species when, as far as we know (and God FORBID it be true) we are the SUMMIT of civilization in the universe just smacks of a certain childishness on his part.

 

[QuasarVM]

To attack Stanton Friedman for bothering to research UFOs is silly. By your logic, if we'd never said "Hey what is that bacteria?" we'd never have developed penicillin...or pasteurization.



[/QUOTE]

All right, you got me, I guess I was anti-science the whole time. Touche![/QUOTE]

With regard to you those who attack the investigators for bothering to look into the claims, yes, I would say those people ARE anti-science.

Why should it be any less valid to look into UFOs than it is to look into quantum physics or any other scientific issue?

We have proof other planets exist outside of our own solar system. We've discovered water in various places in space. We assume life exists beyond this solar system and on this planet.

So, why is researching UFOs such a ludicrous notion to some of you?

Oh, I get it...you think if humans didn't create a technology then it couldn't possibly exist, right? And you know exactly what form all extraterrestrial life might take as well?

 

[QuasarVM]

^^

I've read a number of Stanton Friedman's books and come away from each one with the ever more reinforced opinion that he is an intellectual snob and holds in contempt anyone who doesn't agree with his reasoning. His texts are littered with little jibes about modern culture and pithy quips about such things as aliens being reluctant to contact us outright because there is no evidence of "intelligent" life on Earth by virtue of nation making war on nation and a LOT of other moralizing scattered about which has nothing to do one way or another with the issue of UFOs.

That said, it's hard really to find much WRONG with Friedman's reasoning in his books. But he doesn't offer much in the way of evidence. He more tries to make his perspective seem more reasonable than any alternative. My opinion is that his best work has been concerning the so-called Majestic-12 papers. He's done tons of research on that subject; one which I had signed off as a hoax a long time ago. Friedman's work on the MJ-12 documents has rekindled my interest in the subject and, while I consider it FAR more likely to be a hoax than truth, the sheer complexity involved in orchestrating a hoax of that magnitude and such subtle detail (including such facts as finding a 15 minute window of opportunity for two people to have met 50 years ago) boggles the mind. Friedman's work on the MJ-12 material has me convinced at present that either the documents ARE real (which is hard to accept) OR that some elements of the government, for reasons I can't conceive, were actively involved in the creation of the hoax. There are simply too many well-oiled variables involved with time-tables and opportunities (or NOT) for meetings and such for the MJ-12 documents to be the work of anything less than VERY VERY bright professional disinformation specialists or they are real. Arrogant and snobbish though he may be, Friedman has made a strong case in this regard.

Very few people in the scientific community are missing the arrogance gene from what I have been able to ascertain. It's not unique to Friedman by a longshot.

The thing is, if MJ-12 proves to conclusively be a hoax Friedman will be the first one out there shouting to the world that it is.

That's the kind of guy he is. He's not going to try to convince people of something he hasn't confirmed -- or has no proof of. He's not a fraud...and he's trying to find the evidence and proof out there if it exists. There's not a thing wrong with looking under the rock to see what's there -- if anything.

Case in point: Bob Lazar. Everyone and his mother was ready to jump (and DID jump) on the Bob Lazar bandwagon (and that's where a lot of the Area 51 claims came from since he was claiming to have "reverse engineered" an alien craft there) but Friedman was one of the main ones tracing all his claims of where Lazar worked; his education; etc. and found him to be a fraud.

I can't tell you how many UFO documentaries came out AFTER Lazard was proven to be a fraud and yet there he was lying on camera making ridiculous claims that Friedman has proven to be fraudulent.

So, that's just one example...there are others.

Friedman is an objective researcher.

I agree. He is an objective researcher and, as I said, his work is what convinced me that whatever the truth of the MJ-12 documents, it's more than a simple and transparent hoax perpetrated by a couple guys who wanted to sell a book (Moore and Shandeara?? IIRC). It's either a VERY complicated and sophisticated hoax or the real deal. And I think Friedman would be at the front of the line if he found proof either way. He is a man of integrity, I believe.

That said, you have to admit that the preponderance of leverage in his books is basically to out-argue the opposition and make his contention that UFOs ARE alien visitors seem more likely than any other explanation. For all his research, he has produced precious little evidence to show along side his volumes of well-reasoned but still speculative contentions.

And I do very much wish he'd leave his moralizing at the doorstep. Continually referring to humanity as a "primitive" species when, as far as we know (and God FORBID it be true) we are the SUMMIT of civilization in the universe just smacks of a certain childishness on his part.

I don't like the moralizing either...agreed on that one.

Well, his "job" is to prove that some UFOs "are" ET spacecraft since he believes some are. So, that's his never-ending (?) quest...and that of all UFO researchers.

While I cannot officially "believe" or be a "Kool Aid Drinker" until I myself see them with my own eyes, I have just always believed it's foolish to dismiss this possibility out of hand.

I tend to view the universe in a way that allows for the possibility that any potential intelligent life beyond this planet to have different scientific and technical knowledge than we have. So, with this in mind, I think its possible for us to have been visited in the past -- or currently -- or in the future. But like some of you, I need the proof as well. It's not impossible, but I need the proof.

So, I continue to say "never say never". It would would/will not surprise me one bit if a ship DID "land on the White House lawn" -- but then, how would they know to land there?

 

[Lookingglassman]

If there are aliens out there I think they:

1. Dont even know about us.

2. If they do know about us, arent very interested in us to want to stay around and check us out.

The Earth is a tiny planet in the vastness of space and I think an alien race with the technology to cruise through space probably hasnt noticed us yet. Our radio signals have been going out in space for what? 60 years? Those signals are nowhere near other planetary systems and I doubt some alien spacecraft just happened to be cruising along and picked up Howard Stern and follwoed the signal back to earth.

On the other hand, if aliens have visited earth in the past, why hang around it? If they have the power to zip all over the universe, why bother with a bunch of people on a planet that really cant go anywhere or do anything? Put yourself in their place. You are commander of a starship and you come upon a planet of a bunch of aliens who has a BS space program and that is about it. These aliens can send satellites to different planets, but cant yet send themselves to it. They fight amongst themselves and pretty much are self centered. Why hang around checking them out? They have nothing to offer and since I have a starship I can go find other planets with perhaps more interesting life on it.

 

[Nardpuncher]

To attack Stanton Friedman for bothering to research UFOs is silly. By your logic, if we'd never said "Hey what is that bacteria?" we'd never have developed penicillin...or pasteurization.

All right, you got me, I guess I was anti-science the whole time. Touche![/QUOTE]

With regard to you those who attack the investigators for bothering to look into the claims, yes, I would say those people ARE anti-science.

Why should it be any less valid to look into UFOs than it is to look into quantum physics or any other scientific issue?

We have proof other planets exist outside of our own solar system. We've discovered water in various places in space. We assume life exists beyond this solar system and on this planet.

So, why is researching UFOs such a ludicrous notion to some of you?

Oh, I get it...you think if humans didn't create a technology then it couldn't possibly exist, right? And you know exactly what form all extraterrestrial life might take as well?

[/QUOTE]

Wow! Yet again you've got me.
Yes, I do indeed think that if humans didn't create a technology then it doesn't exist. And I also know exactly what form all extraterrestrial life might take as well.

 

[QuasarVM]

If there are aliens out there I think they:

1. Dont even know about us.

2. If they do know about us, arent very interested in us to want to stay around and check us out.

The Earth is a tiny planet in the vastness of space and I think an alien race with the technology to cruise through space probably hasnt noticed us yet. Our radio signals have been going out in space for what? 60 years? Those signals are nowhere near other planetary systems and I doubt some alien spacecraft just happened to be cruising along and picked up Howard Stern and follwoed the signal back to earth.

On the other hand, if aliens have visited earth in the past, why hang around it? If they have the power to zip all over the universe, why bother with a bunch of people on a planet that really cant go anywhere or do anything? Put yourself in their place. You are commander of a starship and you come upon a planet of a bunch of aliens who has a BS space program and that is about it. These aliens can send satellites to different planets, but cant yet send themselves to it. They fight amongst themselves and pretty much are self centered. Why hang around checking them out? They have nothing to offer and since I have a starship I can go find other planets with perhaps more interesting life on it.

Or...playing Devil's advocate...maybe we're just one big experiment and they just come back occasionally to check up on us?

No, I don't truly believe that...just throwing that out there for some of you to chew on...

 

[QuasarVM]

To attack Stanton Friedman for bothering to research UFOs is silly. By your logic, if we'd never said "Hey what is that bacteria?" we'd never have developed penicillin...or pasteurization.

All right, you got me, I guess I was anti-science the whole time. Touche!

With regard to you those who attack the investigators for bothering to look into the claims, yes, I would say those people ARE anti-science.

Why should it be any less valid to look into UFOs than it is to look into quantum physics or any other scientific issue?

We have proof other planets exist outside of our own solar system. We've discovered water in various places in space. We assume life exists beyond this solar system and on this planet.

So, why is researching UFOs such a ludicrous notion to some of you?

Oh, I get it...you think if humans didn't create a technology then it couldn't possibly exist, right? And you know exactly what form all extraterrestrial life might take as well?

[/QUOTE]

Wow! Yet again you've got me.
Yes, I do indeed think that if humans didn't create a technology then it doesn't exist. And I also know exactly what form all extraterrestrial life might take as well.[/QUOTE]

You are being clever...that is unbecoming of a Nardpuncher.

 

[Lookingglassman]

QuasarVM, You brought up a good point. I read how UFO conspriacy theorist think the US govt cut a deal with aliens in exchange for alien tech they will let the aliens experiment on us. Supposedly these aliens inhabit underground bases like the one in Dulce and work side by side with humans.

These people who believe this stuff are nuts.

First why would a race that has the technology to traverse millions of miles need to experiment on us? I'm sure they would have the technology to do what they want without bothering us. Heck we humans have technology to do "virtual surgery" so I dont see why aliens cant do the same thing.

Second If they are here doing experiments, why ask permission from any govt? What are we going to do to stop them? We cant fight them so they can do as they please.

Third, Why would they even bother with people in the USA? If I was an alien who wanted to experiment on humans I would just fly to the jungles of Africa and South America and take people from there. Who would even know or care they are missing?

 

[Zachary Smith]

If there are aliens out there I think they:

1. Dont even know about us.

2. If they do know about us, arent very interested in us to want to stay around and check us out.

The Earth is a tiny planet in the vastness of space and I think an alien race with the technology to cruise through space probably hasnt noticed us yet. Our radio signals have been going out in space for what? 60 years? Those signals are nowhere near other planetary systems and I doubt some alien spacecraft just happened to be cruising along and picked up Howard Stern and follwoed the signal back to earth.

On the other hand, if aliens have visited earth in the past, why hang around it? If they have the power to zip all over the universe, why bother with a bunch of people on a planet that really cant go anywhere or do anything? Put yourself in their place. You are commander of a starship and you come upon a planet of a bunch of aliens who has a BS space program and that is about it. These aliens can send satellites to different planets, but cant yet send themselves to it. They fight amongst themselves and pretty much are self centered. Why hang around checking them out? They have nothing to offer and since I have a starship I can go find other planets with perhaps more interesting life on it.

Any civilization capable of interstellar travel already KNOWS we're here if they're ANYWHERE near us. WE are on the verge of being able to find life-sustaining worlds and probably will be able to find them within the next decade. At the same time we are likely centuries from being able to travel between star-systems.

Any beings leaving their native world would logically be doing it for one of two reasons: they MUST for one reason or another (environmental reasons, over-crowding, whatever) or they are CURIOUS to see what they would find elsewhere. In either case, if they are ANYTHING like us, (.i.e. can survive in an earth-like environment), earth-like worlds WOULD be of obvious interest to them for exactly the same reasons finding other earth-like worlds would be of interest to US--we can LIVE there. Now, if we suppose life-sustaining worlds to be fairly common in the universe, it might just be easier and wiser to avoid those with blossoming civilizations such as ours. If they're NOT so common and there's a compelling reason beyond curiosity for aliens to seek them out, we might be in some trouble.

In either reasonable scenario, a civilization with interstellar capability looking to the stars for planets with an environment to sustain life as we know it, is either looking to FIND us or looking to avoid us, and they KNOW we're here, unless they are just too far away to care.

 

[Lookingglassman]

I wont totally discount some pictures and films. If aliens exist and know about us I can see them flying by to check us out. What I dont believe is they are hanging out with us in secret. The Prime Directive only exist in Star Trek.

I think any real alien contact will be like what happened in "alien nation" Humanoid looking aliens arrive because they are running from something or their planet was messed up and they want to hook up with us.

I just dont buy the whole "US govt is secretly working with aliens" scenario. Aliens aint going to know or care who the "right" govt is to work with. Just like the aliens in "Contact" They sent back the Hitler signal. They didnt know who he was or what he did just that they received a signal from us and returned it to say hello.

 

[QuasarVM]

QuasarVM, You brought up a good point. I read how UFO conspriacy theorist think the US govt cut a deal with aliens in exchange for alien tech they will let the aliens experiment on us. Supposedly these aliens inhabit underground bases like the one in Dulce and work side by side with humans.

These people who believe this stuff are nuts.

First why would a race that has the technology to traverse millions of miles need to experiment on us? I'm sure they would have the technology to do what they want without bothering us. Heck we humans have technology to do "virtual surgery" so I dont see why aliens cant do the same thing.

Second If they are here doing experiments, why ask permission from any govt? What are we going to do to stop them? We cant fight them so they can do as they please.

Third, Why would they even bother with people in the USA? If I was an alien who wanted to experiment on humans I would just fly to the jungles of Africa and South America and take people from there. Who would even know or care they are missing?

All good points, LG!

I think it was Clifford Stone who started all that stuff about the "Dulce facility" -- there were some really bizarre stories that came from him regarding that alledged place.

I don't think aliens would need to make deals with humans...

 

[Lookingglassman]

QuasarVM, That is why I dont buy any of the theories that aliens are working with the US govt. Could the US govt have recovered alien tech? Sure, I'm not going to say they do not, but aliens working side by side with US govt officials? Nope.

 

[Checkmate]

I don't think aliens would need to make deals with humans...

Clearly they have. Someone has to be blackening out all those documents! Unless, hmm, I suppose the aliens could have some kind of super awesome science that lets them beam up every document the government releases, scribble it out with a black magic marker (it's "magic" you see, so they clearly came up with it -- obviously one of the many ways the aliens bribe the government along with microwaves and beer helmets), then beam it down with no one being the wiser.

Yessir.

 

[Zachary Smith]

I don't think aliens would need to make deals with humans...

Clearly they have. Someone has to be blackening out all those documents! Unless, hmm, I suppose the aliens could have some kind of super awesome science that lets them beam up every document the government releases, scribble it out with a black magic marker (it's "magic" you see, so they clearly came up with it -- obviously one of the many ways the aliens bribe the government along with microwaves and beer helmets), then beam it down with no one being the wiser.

Yessir.

You're a TOTAL chuckle-head. Look, dude, if the topic offends your sensibilities so much that all you can do is dribble weak sarcasm like drool from a mangy, rabid pup, maybe you're best off just staying out of the thread. Go play with your X-box or something. You've MADE your point: you don't think censored documents prove anything. Beyond that, you're just embarrassing yourself.

 

[Thespeckledkiwi]

Based on scientific analysis or well the scientific method this is simply a very flimsy theory at best. There is no physical proof that aliens exist. No hard evidence whatsoever. This is simply a theory like the Loch Ness Monster, Big Foot and Atlantis. A theory, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Nardpuncher]

I don't think aliens would need to make deals with humans...

Clearly they have. Someone has to be blackening out all those documents! Unless, hmm, I suppose the aliens could have some kind of super awesome science that lets them beam up every document the government releases, scribble it out with a black magic marker (it's "magic" you see, so they clearly came up with it -- obviously one of the many ways the aliens bribe the government along with microwaves and beer helmets), then beam it down with no one being the wiser.

Yessir.

Well I don't think you're embarrassing yourself.

Sometimes it's best to reply to silliness with some more silliness to show the absurdity.
(Sorry, I should've been quoting Zachary Smith here, but meh)

 

[Zachary Smith]

Based on scientific analysis or well the scientific method this is simply a very flimsy theory at best. There is no physical proof that aliens exist. No hard evidence whatsoever. This is simply a theory like the Loch Ness Monster, Big Foot and Atlantis. A theory, nothing more, nothing less.

Actually there is a quite a fair amount of physical evidence in support of the Big-foot hypothesis--though admittedly no bodies--which is what it will take to convince some hard-core cynics of even the POSSIBILITY of such a creature. Also the Legend of Atlantis almost certainly rises from the destruction of Minoan culture in approx 1500 BC due to the eruption of a huge volcano on the island of Santorini in the Aegean Sea which wiped out an entire people virtually overnight.

 

[LitmusDragon]

Where I grew up in rural southern Ohio there was this particular road where these orange and red lights would hover just above the treelines on summer nights. Sometimes they would hold perfectly still for many hours. They made absolutely no sound.

I trolled through there with a video camera once or twice before I left but could never catch one when I actually had the camera with me.

There was a military airbase nearby so I'm not saying they were aliens, but I don't think they were helicopters either.