The Final Frontier vs. Star Trek XI

[Shazam!]

For Spock not to shoot him, I think childhood friend would suffice.

Also, if making Sybok Spock's brother was the only logical reason Spock didn't pull the trigger, they should/could have just changed the script so that Spock weren't in that position in the first place. Not a hard task to do I reckon.

And they could change the script to not include red matter. It's just a plot device. At least the one in TFF provides something for Leonard Nimoy to work with as an actor and isn't just a special effect.

 

[AxelFoley]

For Spock not to shoot him, I think childhood friend would suffice.

Also, if making Sybok Spock's brother was the only logical reason Spock didn't pull the trigger, they should/could have just changed the script so that Spock weren't in that position in the first place. Not a hard task to do I reckon.

And they could change the script to not include rad matter. It's just a plot device. At least the one in TFF provides something for Leonard Nimoy to work with as an actor and isn't just a special effect.

Not arguing about the red matter stuff.

I'm actually on your side here, I prefer TFF. Loved the character moments.

 

[Shazam!]

LOL I just think of all the things to dislike about TFF, Sybok being Spock's brother is somewhere near the bottom.

 

[Cyke101]

LOL I just think of all the things to dislike TFF frontier, Sybok being Spock's brother is somewhere near the bottom.

My one big complaint about Sybok is that he didn't really add anything to Spock's character whatsoever. Spock is the same man before we meet Sybok and after Sybok's death. One thing that I wished was explored in MUCH, MUCH more detail was Spock's allegiances between family and crew and just how would a living creature of logic would handle such a thing.

Compare Sybok to, say, David Marcus. Marcus may not be the most memorable of characters, but he had enough of an impact to change Kirk's character, even three films after his death. For me, at least, the problem isn't that Spock had a brother, it's just that despite being the center of the film, very little was done to Spock in the process.

 

[Mysterion]

Remember the line on the STV posters about them having to install seat-belts in the theaters? That was to keep people from leaving before the movie was over.

STXI is a much better movie in my opinion.

 

[JarodRussell]

LOL I just think of all the things to dislike TFF frontier, Sybok being Spock's brother is somewhere near the bottom.

My one big complaint about Sybok is that he didn't really add anything to Spock's character whatsoever. Spock is the same man before we meet Sybok and after Sybok's death. One thing that I wished was explored in MUCH, MUCH more detail was Spock's allegiances between family and crew and just how would a living creature of logic would handle such a thing.

Compare Sybok to, say, David Marcus. Marcus may not be the most memorable of characters, but he had enough of an impact to change Kirk's character, even three films after his death. For me, at least, the problem isn't that Spock had a brother, it's just that despite being the center of the film, very little was done to Spock in the process.

Interesting. Yet you love the new movie, although Spock Prime's presence - just as Sybok's -has no effect at all on the character development of Kirk or Spock. Nor does Nero have any effect. Especially funny is that when Nero destroys Vulcan, an nuSpock is about to quit Starfleet (which would have been an actual development), Spock Prime prevents him from doing so.

When he gets promoted to Captain, Kirk is still the same guy who tried to hit at Uhura at the bar, the same rebellious kid who stole a car. The only difference is that people applaud him for ignoring the rules, because instead of destroying a car for nothing, he saved the world. But his character didn't develop at all.

Spock. At the beginning we see young Spock being mocked, and he gets crazy and beats the shit out of the kid. 25 years later, nothing changed. Kirk mocks him, and Spock beats the crap out of him. When he decides to join the Enterprise again, he is just as emotionally unstable as at the beginning of the movie. Would somebody provoke him, he would again lose control.

When you think about it, not a single character in that movie goes through an arc. Nero, not a chance. Uhura, not a bit. McCoy, nothing. Pike, nada.

 

[Cyke101]

LOL I just think of all the things to dislike TFF frontier, Sybok being Spock's brother is somewhere near the bottom.

My one big complaint about Sybok is that he didn't really add anything to Spock's character whatsoever. Spock is the same man before we meet Sybok and after Sybok's death. One thing that I wished was explored in MUCH, MUCH more detail was Spock's allegiances between family and crew and just how would a living creature of logic would handle such a thing.

Compare Sybok to, say, David Marcus. Marcus may not be the most memorable of characters, but he had enough of an impact to change Kirk's character, even three films after his death. For me, at least, the problem isn't that Spock had a brother, it's just that despite being the center of the film, very little was done to Spock in the process.

Interesting. Yet you love the new movie, although Spock Prime's presence - just as Sybok's -has no effect at all on the character development of Kirk or Spock. Nor does Nero have any effect. Especially funny is that when Nero destroys Vulcan, an nuSpock is about to quit Starfleet (which would have been an actual development), Spock Prime prevents him from doing so.

Wouldn't you say those are actually some pretty major events? It seems that nuKirk and nuSpock wouldn't have been friends, nor would either of them really mature, without Spock Prime's help. nuSpock wouldn't have become a hero avenging Vulcan's death, he'd probably die with the rest of the gathered fleet. nuKirk would still be marooned. And nuKirk stops being a cocky ahole and really starts to assert his leadership potential (really, Kirk offering to save Nero is a very Shatner thing to do, and the opposite of "fuck-you-nuKirk), while nuSpock stops being such a dick and even backs up his former rival. And while yes, having nuSpock quit Starfleet would be one form of development, that's not the ONLY form of development -- nuSpock had to tone down his inner anger and arrogance in order to continue. That's major, major change right there, one that's plotted out for the future.

I have to ask: just what does character development mean to you? In all my acting and writing classes (screenwriting and creative lit), we're taught to map out every change a character undergoes to see what changes occurred and how the character will ultimately turn out. You can map each character beat for nuKirk and nuSpock. If you graphed it, you'd pretty much see that Spock Prime was in the middle of both personality shifts.

For Sybok, if you charted his, one could argue that it started when they entered the nebula surrounding Sha Ka Ree, but not for Spock. Sybok's biggest change when he realizes that "God" isn't real, but you can't map Spock. When Spock saves Kirk, it echoes to the beginning of the film, basically back to square one.

Compare that to Kirk in the beginning of TUC who makes some really racist comments against the Klingons in David's memory, but plot out his change, you'll see that through dinner, assassination, etc, that he offers peace in David's memory. A complete shift from the beginning.

So, a complete shift in nuKirk, nuSpock, TFF-Sybok, TUC Kirk: where's TFF Spock? There isn't really any for TFF-Spock, but in its defense, it's meant not to be a vehicle for Spock but rather about the chemistry between Kirk, Spock, and McCoy (I doubt the dynamic between the three of them was majorly changed b/c of that movie, however).

Even then, Sybok doesn't really need the beats, does he? As long as he changes Spock in some way -- we never even saw Spock grieve for his brother's death, whereas we see Sarek fear for Kirk and McCoy, two men he barely knows compared to his sons, in TUC.

As for Nero, while he didn't have any real character beats, he was THE major factor in changing Kirk from the dashing walking stack of books to the crude walking stack of books. He didn't have any beats, but he definitely steered Kirk down a 22 year path.

Pretty much every critically acclaimed Trek film has had the characters change in some way --Kirk vs. age in TWOK, Picard learning to overcome his grudges in FC, for example, but the key component there is that there's some sort of inner change.

(of course, it's not the only criteria -- Nemesis was critically reviled, but no one can deny the crew's inner change at the end. We can probably write up maps for Data and Picard, and maybe Riker and Worf, to find out)

When he gets promoted to Captain, Kirk is still the same guy who tried to hit at Uhura at the bar, the same rebellious kid who stole a car. The only difference is that people applaud him for ignoring the rules, because instead of destroying a car for nothing, he saved the world. But his character didn't develop at all.

I would argue that Kirk started taking his duties far more responsibly and that the potential that Pike saw was eventually realized. The fact that Kirk hit on Uhura is irrelevant, that Kirk graduated in three years is itself a feat.

Correction: that Kirk hit on Uhura was pretty relevant -- it humbled the HELL out of him. Had he not been beaten up, would he have joined Starfleet? Probably not.

I can't believe we're still on Kirk's case about stealing a corvette. It's not like he would ever steal the Enterprise, blow her up, get court-martialed, and then get applauded (a standing ovation, even!) for ignoring the rules, saving the world in the process...

Spock. At the beginning we see young Spock being mocked, and he gets crazy and beats the shit out of the kid. 25 years later, nothing changed. Kirk mocks him, and Spock beats the crap out of him. When he decides to join the Enterprise again, he is just as emotionally unstable as at the beginning of the movie. Would somebody provoke him, he would again lose control.

That one and only time when he was emotionally compromised. When he returned to duty, he not only (grudgingly) worked with the crew on the plan to save Earth, he also swallowed his pride in offering to be Kirk's second in command, a far cry from the drill sergeant instructor we saw at the beginning. We didn't even see nuSpock fly into a fury on the Narada -- rather, he was focused enough to do a mindmeld, and according to Spock Prime, Tuvok, etc, you need quite a bit of discipline to do a mindmeld.

But I ask you, did we see anything in TUC or Unification where Spock is outright affected by Sybok at all? Ever? Amanda Grayson had many, many more references to her credit than Sybok ever did, even after TFF.

I understand that you hate Star Trek XI. I won't convince you to like it. But to say there's no such thing as character development in the film, regardless of execution, is a tad far-fetched. You can say the execution sucks and that's fine by me; I'm saying that the change actually there. As for TFF, it could have been the perfect vehicle to be a character-driven Trek film, but it wasn't, it was a plot-driven flick instead (not that there's anything wrong with that, either).

 

[number6]

My one big complaint about Sybok is that he didn't really add anything to Spock's character whatsoever. Spock is the same man before we meet Sybok and after Sybok's death. One thing that I wished was explored in MUCH, MUCH more detail was Spock's allegiances between family and crew and just how would a living creature of logic would handle such a thing.

Compare Sybok to, say, David Marcus. Marcus may not be the most memorable of characters, but he had enough of an impact to change Kirk's character, even three films after his death. For me, at least, the problem isn't that Spock had a brother, it's just that despite being the center of the film, very little was done to Spock in the process.

Interesting. Yet you love the new movie, although Spock Prime's presence - just as Sybok's -has no effect at all on the character development of Kirk or Spock. Nor does Nero have any effect. Especially funny is that when Nero destroys Vulcan, an nuSpock is about to quit Starfleet (which would have been an actual development), Spock Prime prevents him from doing so.

Wouldn't you say those are actually some pretty major events? It seems that nuKirk and nuSpock wouldn't have been friends, nor would either of them really mature, without Spock Prime's help. nuSpock wouldn't have become a hero avenging Vulcan's death, he'd probably die with the rest of the gathered fleet. nuKirk would still be marooned. And nuKirk stops being a cocky ahole and really starts to assert his leadership potential (really, Kirk offering to save Nero is a very Shatner thing to do, and the opposite of "fuck-you-nuKirk), while nuSpock stops being such a dick and even backs up his former rival. And while yes, having nuSpock quit Starfleet would be one form of development, that's not the ONLY form of development -- nuSpock had to tone down his inner anger and arrogance in order to continue. That's major, major change right there, one that's plotted out for the future.

I have to ask: just what does character development mean to you? In all my acting and writing classes (screenwriting and creative lit), we're taught to map out every change a character undergoes to see what changes occurred and how the character will ultimately turn out. You can map each character beat for nuKirk and nuSpock. If you graphed it, you'd pretty much see that Spock Prime was in the middle of both personality shifts.

For Sybok, if you charted his, one could argue that it started when they entered the nebula surrounding Sha Ka Ree, but not for Spock. Sybok's biggest change when he realizes that "God" isn't real, but you can't map Spock. When Spock saves Kirk, it echoes to the beginning of the film, basically back to square one.

Compare that to Kirk in the beginning of TUC who makes some really racist comments against the Klingons in David's memory, but plot out his change, you'll see that through dinner, assassination, etc, that he offers peace in David's memory. A complete shift from the beginning.

So, a complete shift in nuKirk, nuSpock, TFF-Sybok, TUC Kirk: where's TFF Spock? There isn't really any for TFF-Spock, but in its defense, it's meant not to be a vehicle for Spock but rather about the chemistry between Kirk, Spock, and McCoy (I doubt the dynamic between the three of them was majorly changed b/c of that movie, however).

Even then, Sybok doesn't really need the beats, does he? As long as he changes Spock in some way -- we never even saw Spock grieve for his brother's death, whereas we see Sarek fear for Kirk and McCoy, two men he barely knows compared to his sons, in TUC.

As for Nero, while he didn't have any real character beats, he was THE major factor in changing Kirk from the dashing walking stack of books to the crude walking stack of books. He didn't have any beats, but he definitely steered Kirk down a 22 year path.

Pretty much every critically acclaimed Trek film has had the characters change in some way --Kirk vs. age in TWOK, Picard learning to overcome his grudges in FC, for example, but the key component there is that there's some sort of inner change.

(of course, it's not the only criteria -- Nemesis was critically reviled, but no one can deny the crew's inner change at the end. We can probably write up maps for Data and Picard, and maybe Riker and Worf, to find out)

When he gets promoted to Captain, Kirk is still the same guy who tried to hit at Uhura at the bar, the same rebellious kid who stole a car. The only difference is that people applaud him for ignoring the rules, because instead of destroying a car for nothing, he saved the world. But his character didn't develop at all.

I would argue that Kirk started taking his duties far more responsibly and that the potential that Pike saw was eventually realized. The fact that Kirk hit on Uhura is irrelevant, that Kirk graduated in three years is itself a feat.

Correction: that Kirk hit on Uhura was pretty relevant -- it humbled the HELL out of him. Had he not been beaten up, would he have joined Starfleet? Probably not.

I can't believe we're still on Kirk's case about stealing a corvette. It's not like he would ever steal the Enterprise, blow her up, get court-martialed, and then get applauded (a standing ovation, even!) for ignoring the rules, saving the world in the process...

Spock. At the beginning we see young Spock being mocked, and he gets crazy and beats the shit out of the kid. 25 years later, nothing changed. Kirk mocks him, and Spock beats the crap out of him. When he decides to join the Enterprise again, he is just as emotionally unstable as at the beginning of the movie. Would somebody provoke him, he would again lose control.

That one and only time when he was emotionally compromised. When he returned to duty, he not only (grudgingly) worked with the crew on the plan to save Earth, he also swallowed his pride in offering to be Kirk's second in command, a far cry from the drill sergeant instructor we saw at the beginning. We didn't even see nuSpock fly into a fury on the Narada -- rather, he was focused enough to do a mindmeld, and according to Spock Prime, Tuvok, etc, you need quite a bit of discipline to do a mindmeld.

But I ask you, did we see anything in TUC or Unification where Spock is outright affected by Sybok at all? Ever? Amanda Grayson had many, many more references to her credit than Sybok ever did, even after TFF.

I understand that you hate Star Trek XI. I won't convince you to like it. But to say there's no such thing as character development in the film, regardless of execution, is a tad far-fetched. You can say the execution sucks and that's fine by me; I'm saying that the change actually there. As for TFF, it could have been the perfect vehicle to be a character-driven Trek film, but it wasn't, it was a plot-driven flick instead (not that there's anything wrong with that, either).

Well said!

 

[Amaris]

I love Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, and had always considered it my favorite Trek movie, until I saw Star Trek XI, which took over as number one position and has remained there. So, Star Trek XI.

Oh, and brilliant post by Cyke101.

J.

 

[Cyke101]

Thanks, guys That post left me pooped!

But I just want to point out that I don't want to put down or ridicule anyone's love for TFF (it was the film that introduced me to Trek in the first place!). Everyone can like what they want to like, and that's cool by me. TFF definitely has some moments of redemption and it's surely not the worst that Trek has to offer. I'm just saying why I myself preferred XI over TFF, that's all.

 

[Shazam!]

And nuKirk stops being a cocky ahole and really starts to assert his leadership potential (really, Kirk offering to save Nero is a very Shatner thing to do, and the opposite of "fuck-you-nuKirk), while nuSpock stops being such a dick and even backs up his former rival. And while yes, having nuSpock quit Starfleet would be one form of development, that's not the ONLY form of development -- nuSpock had to tone down his inner anger and arrogance in order to continue. That's major, major change right there, one that's plotted out for the future.

Kirk offering to save Nero is Shatner-esque? Even after he killed his dad and thousands of Starfleet personel and destroyed Vulcan?

I guess Kruge caught him on a bad day when Kirk kicked him off a cliff for getting someone else to kill his son...

 

[Bones2]

When Kirk kicked Kruge off a cliff, wasn't that after trying to help him up? Maybe I remember wrong.

But then, that's very different from endangering your ship to pointlessly fire at someone who's dead anyway.

 

[Shazam!]

When Kirk kicked Kruge off a cliff, wasn't that after trying to help him up? Maybe I remember wrong.

Oh yeah : (

However,

And nuKirk stops being a cocky ahole and really starts to assert his leadership potential (really, Kirk offering to save Nero is a very Shatner thing to do, and the opposite of "fuck-you-nuKirk), while nuSpock stops being such a dick and even backs up his former rival.

Didn't nuSpock disagree with Kirk about saving Nero and that's why they blew him up?

 

[Yeoman Randi]

No, they blew up Nero because Nero refused their help and said, "i'd rather die a thousand times (or something like that) than be helped by you.

 

[Shazam!]

Fair enough. I'm probably just remembering it wrong as I did with Star Trek III.

 

[JarodRussell]

Kirk had no other choice than to kill Kruge. When Kirk tried to help him, Kruge grabbed his leg and tried to pull him over the cliff. That's self defense.

What Kirk did in the new movie was playing judge, jury and executioner.

 

[Cyke101]

What Kirk did in the new movie was playing judge, jury and executioner.

However, as Yeoman Rancid pointed out, Kirk gave Nero a choice, something a jury and executioner definitely do not offer other than, say, giving a blindfold. In this case, Nero was like Kruge, the black hole like the cliff, and the full weapons spread like Shatner's boot (and no one doubts the power of Shatner's boot! That's why he drop-kicks all the time.)

 

[Kirk Only]

Star Trek. Anyone who cares more for Star Trek V: The Final Frontier is still nursing sour grapes over Abrams' take on the franchise. Shatner's film has laughable special effects, several broad misfires at comedy, and a rickety premise. What it could have been is irrelevant in this case.

Which was not Shatner's fault. It is a shame what Paramount did to his script and story.

 

[Harvey]

Yes, it's a shame what Paramount did to the film. There's a lovely making-of book written by his daughter about the production that goes to great lengths describing each step of the filmmaking process that went into it, and offers plenty of detail as to what it could have been.

But that doesn't change the final product one bit. And that final product is a mess.

 

[CaptainStoner]

I try not to polarize with it comes to my Trek movies.

This.

With STXI being so fresh, it's a harder call. I don't share the hate for STV ~ light humor was often a staple in TOS, something some fans forget.

It's a harder call than I thought coming into the thread. STV has impact in places - I'm thinking of McCoy's scene with his Father, but also Spock's performance overall (I mean Nimoy's performance...), and there really was no such dramatic impact in STXI except for the opening scene - best opening ever -

I don't hate STXI, either, there is a lot to like, but as a real Trek film, with both goofy moments and strong dramatic impact, I think STV has ingredients STXI is lacking. Especially when I think of the lack of impact with the destruction of Vulcan. STXI is too light overall. There's nothing to dig into.

I'm going to go against the grain here, and pick STV, because although it is a weaker TOS film, it's got the goods that STXI frankly doesn't have, be it due to writing, or acting.