The Final Frontier vs. Star Trek XI

[Myasishchev]

I can't wrap my head around Star Trek fans objecting to action-adventure on principle.

I don't think people are rejecting the idea 'on principle' but rather that they flat out just didn't find it to be a particularly good film regardless of genre.

Ah, but your main criticism of it so far is it isn't trying to be a sci-fi film and isn't dealing with serious sci-fi ideas.

Saying it sucks because it's a bad action & adventure movie, rather than simply because it's an action & adventure movie, is another matter entirely.

You have to take into account the opportunity cost of not making a science fictiony movie they would've been more comfortable with and enjoyed more.

And I know this sounds facetious, but I'm actually pretty serious. Bad episodes/movies/whatever of a franchise sting doubly, because not only have you watched crap, but you've been deprived of the possibility of something good being made from much the same material.

Now, personally, I loved the new movie. But I still think that decrying a lost opportunity remains a fair criticism of any film--I just think people who think that about ST11 are wrong.

 

[Myasishchev]

Having Sybok as Spock's half-brother was a bad move, an old childhood friend or adversary perhaps would have been better. Sarek was married to a Vulcan princess - I was unaware that royal families existed on Vulcan, and their babies were delivered by priestesses with tons of make-up and BIG hair - didn't ring true with what we knew of Spock and his parents.

The incidentals (royalty, big hair, giving birth in a cave) I'm with you on. Especially the cave. I've gone under the assumption that unlike McCoy's flashback, this is completely metaphorical. I mean, he's a Vulcan, yeah, but dude was just born.

I didn't have a problem with Spock having a brother. I won't recapitulate my arguments here, but it stands to reason that Sarek had reproduced prior to Spock, with someone other than Amanda Grayson.

 

[Bill Morris]

I saw TTF once and took it as an insult. I took the reboot as an insult, too, and haven't seen it.

 

[I am not Spock]

Alternate universe or no, XI treats the TOS characters with more respect than TFF.

Despite some nice Kirk/Spock/McCoy bits in TFF, and some good acting (especially DeForrest in the 'secret pain' scene); the film treats Scotty, Chekov, and Uhura like comedic simpletons. The edict by Paramount to up the humour, due to the success of TVH, was a mistake. Because most of the humour in IV worked because of the 'fish out of water' time travel premise.

Also, effects wise. XI had ILM. V had freaking Bran Ferren! LOL!

 

[Amaris]

^ The McCoy scene in TFF still gets me to this day.


J.

 

[JarodRussell]

Alternate universe or no, XI treats the TOS characters with more respect than TFF.

Despite some nice Kirk/Spock/McCoy bits in TFF, and some good acting (especially DeForrest in the 'secret pain' scene); the film treats Scotty, Chekov, and Uhura like comedic simpletons.

I thought that Scotty and Chekov were even worse comedic simpletons in the new movie.

 

[Cyke101]

Alternate universe or no, XI treats the TOS characters with more respect than TFF.

Despite some nice Kirk/Spock/McCoy bits in TFF, and some good acting (especially DeForrest in the 'secret pain' scene); the film treats Scotty, Chekov, and Uhura like comedic simpletons.

I thought that Scotty and Chekov were even worse comedic simpletons in the new movie.

Scotty, I'd agree with you (but I still blame TFF for setting him down that road). Scotty's one of my complaints about the film. The water tank scene? Utterly superfluous.

For Chekov, though, I can forgive him running down the halls yelling "I can do dat!" simply because, well, he did do dat. Even with only 10 min. on screen, he contributed more to a film than his character ever did in previous movies. If he failed to save Kirk and Sulu, or if he failed to calculate the correct course, Earth would have been destroyed. He was as crucial to the mission as the rest of our heroes.

 

[JarodRussell]

For Chekov, though, I can forgive him running down the halls yelling "I can do dat!" simply because, well, he did do dat. Even with only 10 min. on screen, he contributed more to a film than his character ever did in previous movies. If he failed to save Kirk and Sulu, or if he failed to calculate the correct course, Earth would have been destroyed. He was as crucial to the mission as the rest of our heroes.

I don't agree with that. Alone his scenes in TWOK are worth far more. In TVH, he becomes the focus of attention for quite a while. In TUC, he's First Officer when Spock is in command, leading the investigations aboard the ship, finding the evidence.

You listed technicalities that he was involved in, I'm talking about "character moments" (and I'm aware that this could be a rather vague term, I don't think I know a better one). And I'm aware that his role in TUC was reduced to less character moments and more technicalities, compared to TWOK or TVH.

 

[Cyke101]

For Chekov, though, I can forgive him running down the halls yelling "I can do dat!" simply because, well, he did do dat. Even with only 10 min. on screen, he contributed more to a film than his character ever did in previous movies. If he failed to save Kirk and Sulu, or if he failed to calculate the correct course, Earth would have been destroyed. He was as crucial to the mission as the rest of our heroes.

I don't agree with that. Alone his scenes in TWOK are worth far more. In TVH, he becomes the focus of attention for quite a while. In TUC, he leads the investigations aboard the ship.

You listed technicalities that he was involved in, I'm talking about character moments.

I disagree with this, too. We all love TWOK, but really, Captain Terrell basically served the same purpose as Chekov, and became the highest-ranking redshirt in the process (in that, Terrell still would have tricked the Enterprise, betrayed the crew, and reveal Khan's plot -- and just like Chekov, he even resisted in the end. The only difference between Terrell and Chekov is that Chekov lived). On top of that, someone else on the Enterprise was doing Chekov's duties at tactical before he recovered for the climax (which curiously happened before in TMP as well).

In TVH, his mission and capture was really just one played up for laughs (albeit more convincingly than "I can do dat!"). But even then, Uhura brought back the nuclear goods. (and how is this a "characte rmoment?" His capture was a plot device). He was largely played for laughs and in hindsight, didn't really contribute much to the mission aside from being Uhura's sidekick.

And finally, in TUC, while he lead investigations, he was wrong a number of times (the kitchen phaser and the boots come to mind)... Spock and Scotty unveiled more clues (and outrank him), with Spock leading the investigation himself. No one would ever question Chekov's dedication to the ship (I certainly won't), but again, he was played up both for chuckles and exposition.

But I don't really think of, say, his saving Kirk and Sulu as a technical moment. He wasn't in a position to save them. He actually had to get into that position when the crisis came. He stepped up to bat and delivered. And when the crew was coming up with their final gambit, they turned to Chekov to contribute and not an older veteran from the same department.

Chekov isn't exactly cut from Shakespearean cloth in XI, but he did a heck of a lot more than be a victim or comic fodder or an obligatory character.

 

[DWF]

I felt that Chekov was the comic relief character in the new Star Trek movie. However I do think it was a better movie than Star Trek V, Star Trek V has a flawed premise in that you go somewhere and find God. It also felt restrained and nothing changed for the characters, I didn't get that feeling from the new movie.

 

[Cyke101]

I felt that Chekov was the comic relief character in the new Star Trek movie.

As opposed to Scotty, or along with Scotty? I just thought nuScotty had to be toned down or else he'd come across as panicky, something Doohan's Scotty really wasn't (I think?).

Then again, it sucked to be Chekov when he couldn't save Amanda Grayson...

 

[Amaris]

I felt that Chekov was the comic relief character in the new Star Trek movie.

As opposed to Scotty, or along with Scotty? I just thought nuScotty had to be toned down or else he'd come across as panicky, something Doohan's Scotty really wasn't (I think?).

Then again, it sucked to be Chekov when he couldn't save Amanda Grayson...

Scotty was always panicking, at least when Kirk would demand more power/more weapons/faster speed/not blowing up.

J.

 

[Cyke101]

I felt that Chekov was the comic relief character in the new Star Trek movie.

As opposed to Scotty, or along with Scotty? I just thought nuScotty had to be toned down or else he'd come across as panicky, something Doohan's Scotty really wasn't (I think?).

Then again, it sucked to be Chekov when he couldn't save Amanda Grayson...

Scotty was always panicking, at least when Kirk would demand more power/more weapons/faster speed/not blowing up.

J.

Oh, I remember Doohan Scotty gritting his teeth and, while sweating and often saving the day at the last second, wasn't half as manic as Pegg's version. But it could be a youth thing that he eventually grows out, yes? Scotty had to earn the title of Miracle Worker after all, I think.

 

[Bones2]

I think TVH could be as much to blame (if you see it as a blame thing) for making Scotty into comic relief as TFF; "Hello Mr Computer", "Thar be whales". But I don't have an issue with it. A genius engineer Scotsman called Scotty? Playing him for the occasional laugh wouldn't exactly be a silly idea, especially once he got fat.

As for poor Chekov, he got a bit of a rough ride in the films:
TMP: First person we ever see injured by an exploding console, and burns his hand.
TWOK: Ceti Eel in the head. Ouch.
TSFS: Seemed to get some respite here, though his pink outfit was terrible.
TVH: Takes a dive off a boat onto some concrete, nearly ends up a victim of *shudder* 20th century medicine.
TFF: Gets a chance to play the captain, and the ship gets taken over from him. But I imagine by this point, he had a lot of pain to share.
TUC: Got a heck of a headache from some Rommie ale. For a drink that's supposedly illegal, it doesn't half crop up a lot.

I suppose Chekov was the TOS crew's Worf for the films. He always seems to suffer some way in most of the films.

 

[Cyke101]

I think TVH could be as much to blame (if you see it as a blame thing) for making Scotty into comic relief as TFF; "Hello Mr Computer", "Thar be whales". But I don't have an issue with it. A genius engineer Scotsman called Scotty? Playing him for the occasional laugh wouldn't exactly be a silly idea, especially once he got fat.

I suppose you have a point, but TVH was funny

I wonder if there's a sort of disconnect here between TVH/TFF Scotty and Assassin Killer Scotty from TUC. Of course, I'm happy that he and not the Big 3 got to finish him off.

I suppose Chekov was the TOS crew's Worf for the films. He always seems to suffer some way in most of the films.

Ugh, as much as I don't want to agree with you about the Worf/Chekov comparison, you've got one heck of a point.

 

[Amaris]

As opposed to Scotty, or along with Scotty? I just thought nuScotty had to be toned down or else he'd come across as panicky, something Doohan's Scotty really wasn't (I think?).

Then again, it sucked to be Chekov when he couldn't save Amanda Grayson...

Scotty was always panicking, at least when Kirk would demand more power/more weapons/faster speed/not blowing up.

J.

Oh, I remember Doohan Scotty gritting his teeth and, while sweating and often saving the day at the last second, wasn't half as manic as Pegg's version. But it could be a youth thing that he eventually grows out, yes? Scotty had to earn the title of Miracle Worker after all, I think.

That seems a reasonable conclusion. I think many of us have more "vim and vigor" if you will when we're younger, but as we get older and more well seasoned, we become more sobering in our ministrations under pressure.

J.

 

[Kai Winn]

the ff scenes where sybok tries to convert kirk, spock, and bones are amongst the finest of all 11 movies. #11 is out of the question. silly kiddo stuff. i should have left the cinema when young kirk crashed that 300 years old car. capt proton of voyager and his enemy chaotica made more sense than this kirk, nero, and the absurd plot.

 

[Bones2]

the ff scenes where sybok tries to convert kirk, spock, and bones are amongst the finest of all 11 movies. #11 is out of the question. silly kiddo stuff. i should have left the cinema when young kirk crashed that 300 years old car. capt proton of voyager and his enemy chaotica made more sense than this kirk, nero, and the absurd plot.

Excellent points well made. Welcome to the forum.

 

[TeutonicNights]

ST11 for me.
XI may have a few problems, but V fails on basically all levels.

 

[Voyagerian]

Trek XI DOES work, at least for me, and I wasn't born to Trek yesterday myself, and in comparison to V is a better film. That said, I liked the campfire scene, which captured the bond and familiar give-and-take that made The Trio who they are to so many of us. Credit to Loughery and Shatner, and the fellas' performance...I also liked Jim's line at the end 'I lost a brother once...' Sybok, I assume, and the 'God Being' are what Genen was ref'd in the ST Chronology as part of what he considered non-canon in the film...I think, actually, Sybok would fit well in an alternate take a la ST on TOS...and in fanfic.Sha-ka-Ree didn't belong out where it was-not in a pre-TNG era starship of old-scale Warp Nine, that seemed a pretty major 'wince' idea in retrospect-then again, putting Delta-Vega countless L.Y.'s further in didn't make sense either, that was pushing it, I confess(See, I can criticize ST!LOL) but, oh, well...maybe 1701 in V used one of those 'subspace short cuts' that purportedly the NX could have used to arrive at Qo'nos when it did in ''Broken Bow''.....