Moore and Braga vs. Orci and Kurtzman -- Who Do You Prefer?

[Kegg]

If I may interject, I'd say Braga and Moore were similarly only held back by the rules of tv censors. Moore pretty much stood aside while DS9 introduced a bisexual character who seemed to be so just for the sake of enticing the viewer, as opposed to being bisexual for a character-driven reason;

Jadzia's fling with the love of a past life did make character sense. Give Moore his own TV show and we get a lot more blatant sexuality than any of the Treks managed - that people would doubtless avow it's better integrated and makes more sense to the characters yadda yadda yadda doesn't make it any less sexy.

Braga not only introduced the concept of sex-for-ratings to Trek (Seven,

Miniskirts, TOS. Let's not have this conversation again, it's worth noting they wore pants like all the men in "The Cage", etc.

As far as Orci & Kurtzman go, let's not pretend that the scene with Zoe Saldana in her underwear did not involve the fact she's in her underwear as a percieved plus. Or how Megan Fox is handled in the Transformers films. And so on.

All well and good, I say, O&K are clearly wizards of the teenage mindset (which I mean in a good way, I'd just wished Transformers had been stupid dumb fun rather than stupid dumb tedium), long may they reign.

 

[M'Sharak]

In the script, yes, but not a scrotum.

And did you listen to the dialogue during that shot?

Agent Simmons: "I am directly beneath..." *upward glance* "...the enemy scrotum."

So...yeah.

I stand corrected.

 

[MvRojo]

If I may interject, I'd say Braga and Moore were similarly only held back by the rules of tv censors. Moore pretty much stood aside while DS9 introduced a bisexual character who seemed to be so just for the sake of enticing the viewer, as opposed to being bisexual for a character-driven reason;

Jadzia's fling with the love of a past life did make character sense. Give Moore his own TV show and we get a lot more blatant sexuality than any of the Treks managed - that people would doubtless avow it's better integrated and makes more sense to the characters yadda yadda yadda doesn't make it any less sexy.

Braga not only introduced the concept of sex-for-ratings to Trek (Seven,

Miniskirts, TOS. Let's not have this conversation again, it's worth noting they wore pants like all the men in "The Cage", etc.

As far as Orci & Kurtzman go, let's not pretend that the scene with Zoe Saldana in her underwear did not involve the fact she's in her underwear as a percieved plus. Or how Megan Fox is handled in the Transformers films. And so on.

All well and good, I say, O&K are clearly wizards of the teenage mindset (which I mean in a good way, I'd just wished Transformers had been stupid dumb fun rather than stupid dumb tedium), long may they reign.

They also got Anna Torv into her underwear in the "Fringe" pilot. I didn't mind, but it is something of a trend for them.

 

[DevilEyes]

Why is it that Moore and Bragga did so consistently well together and so consistently terrible when they wrote alone?

TNG:
"The Defector"
"Sins of the Father"
"Family"
"Redemption" parts 1 and 2
"The First Duty"
"Chain of Command" pt 1
"Tapestry"
"The Pegasus"


DS9:
"The House of Quark"
"Defiant"
"The Die Is Cast"
"For the Cause"
"The Darkness and the Light"
"In The Cards"
"Rocks and Shoals"
"Waltz"
"Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges"
"Tacking into the Wind"
"Dogs of War"

BSG:
Miniseries
"33"
"Kobol's Last Gleaming" pt 1 and 2
"Resurrection Ship" pt 1
"Lay Down Your Burdens" pt 1
"Occupation/Precipice"

Carnivale:
"After the Ball is Over" (ep 2)
"Pick a Number" (ep 6)
"The Day that Was the Day" (S1 finale)

Caprica:
Pilot episode


I'd say that Moore has been consistently good when writing without Braga.

If I may interject, I'd say Braga and Moore were similarly only held back by the rules of tv censors. Moore pretty much stood aside while DS9 introduced a bisexual character who seemed to be so just for the sake of enticing the viewer, as opposed to being bisexual for a character-driven reason;

Jadzia's fling with the love of a past life did make character sense. Give Moore his own TV show and we get a lot more blatant sexuality than any of the Treks managed - that people would doubtless avow it's better integrated and makes more sense to the characters yadda yadda yadda doesn't make it any less sexy.

I believe Cyke101 meant The Intendant. Or at least that's what I'd name as an example of juvenile writing for titillation purposes. Not to mention the Unfortunate Implications (good people = straight people, evil MU counterparts = bisexual or gay).

 

[GhostFaceSaint]

Why is it that Moore and Bragga did so consistently well together and so consistently terrible when they wrote alone?

TNG:
"The Defector"
"Sins of the Father"
"Family"
"Redemption" parts 1 and 2
"The First Duty"
"Chain of Command" pt 1
"Tapestry"
"The Pegasus"


DS9:
"The House of Quark"
"Defiant"
"The Die Is Cast"
"For the Cause"
"The Darkness and the Light"
"In The Cards"
"Rocks and Shoals"
"Waltz"
"Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges"
"Tacking into the Wind"
"Dogs of War"

BSG:
Miniseries
"33"
"Kobol's Last Gleaming" pt 1 and 2
"Resurrection Ship" pt 1
"Lay Down Your Burdens" pt 1
"Occupation/Precipice"

Carnivale:
"After the Ball is Over" (ep 2)
"Pick a Number" (ep 6)
"The Day that Was the Day" (S1 finale)

Caprica:
Pilot episode


I'd say that Moore has been consistently good when writing without Braga.

If I may interject, I'd say Braga and Moore were similarly only held back by the rules of tv censors. Moore pretty much stood aside while DS9 introduced a bisexual character who seemed to be so just for the sake of enticing the viewer, as opposed to being bisexual for a character-driven reason;

Jadzia's fling with the love of a past life did make character sense. Give Moore his own TV show and we get a lot more blatant sexuality than any of the Treks managed - that people would doubtless avow it's better integrated and makes more sense to the characters yadda yadda yadda doesn't make it any less sexy.

I believe Cyke101 meant The Intendant. Or at least that's what I'd name as an example of juvenile writing for titillation purposes. Not to mention the Unfortunate Implications (good people = straight people, evil MU counterparts = bisexual or gay).

Wow, I guess I was just remembering it from the perspective of the Bragga episodes I really disliked, gotta give credit to Moore, hopefully he comes back to do some more Trek in the future.

 

[Kegg]

I believe Cyke101 meant The Intendant. Or at least that's what I'd name as an example of juvenile writing for titillation purposes.

Ah, true. Fun in a goofy sort of way, (Worf telling Garak he's not his type), but definitely juvenile. Whenever people bring up lesbianism in DS9 it's usually regarding Jadzia, which is why I made that jump of an assertion.

Not to mention the Unfortunate Implications (good people = straight people, evil MU counterparts = bisexual or gay).

Quite. Pity there weren't really any gay characters they could make straight in the MU, eh?

They also got Anna Torv into her underwear in the "Fringe" pilot. I didn't mind, but it is something of a trend for them.

I minded, because I felt the explanation was more than a trifle weak. At least the Uhura scene flows rather naturally. Honestly my experience with O&K can boil down to not liking their work generally but finding that Star Trek delivers the sort of entertainment I wanted to find in their other scripts.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Lastly... since when does resurrecting a dying franchise NOT count as doing anything special? If anything, that's something short of a miracle.

The franchise was never really dead, it just took a long time for something to happen. And going back to the original crew is just lazy.

Yet still a better idea than doing a movie based on DS9, VOY or ENT. And they sure as hell weren't going to the TNG well again. A whole new crew set after TNG? No, not gonna happen.

The TOS Crew is Star Trek. Those are the names that will put butts in the seats and money in the bank.

 

[Jeyl]

The TOS Crew is Star Trek. Those are the names that will put butts in the seats and money in the bank.

No.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Braga and Moore.

Despite Generations many weaknesses it at least had a bit of heart coupled with some greater themes and despite issues I have with FC it didn't let action overwhelm the film.

Trek XI has not aged well and feels so empty once the adrenaline dissipates.

 

[Aike]

The TOS Crew is Star Trek. Those are the names that will put butts in the seats and money in the bank.

No.

No? Based on what?

Orci and Kurtzman have said that they from the get go wanted to write a movie featuring the early days of Kirk and Spock.
I am certain that this is the only story Paramount would have green-lit. It´s a business issue, not about canon.

 

[Kegg]

Trek XI has not aged well

What?

It's barely aged at all. Let's at least wait a full year since its release before we talk about how it's 'aged'.

feels so empty once the adrenaline dissipates.

This, perhaps so. I certainly felt both times I've watched it that it gets a little hectic in the final act.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The TOS Crew is Star Trek. Those are the names that will put butts in the seats and money in the bank.

No.

Then why did they have to shoehorn TOS characters into Generations to pass the tourch for the movie audiences?

Not to mention TOS = 6 movies, TNG = 4 movies.

or since Kirk has to get something out of Generations

TOS = 6 1/2 movies

TNG = 3 1/2 movies

 

[Nerys Myk]

The TOS Crew is Star Trek. Those are the names that will put butts in the seats and money in the bank.

No.

Really? Because there are several million dollars that say otherwise. Dollars from people who think "Sisko" makes networking products.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Trek XI has not aged well

What?

It's barely aged at all. Let's at least wait a full year since its release before we talk about how it's 'aged'.

That's my point. Usually the newness of a film doesn't wear off for a little while but in the case of this film it has in just these brief few months.

 

[Jeyl]

Really? Because there are several million dollars that say otherwise. Dollars from people who think "Sisko" makes networking products.

Their loss.

 

[Devon]

If you don't care much for Star Trek, and really never did... why would you pick up a project? I don't know... maybe for a lot of MONEY?

Hey, it worked for Roddenberry eventually.

I find it difficult to believe that anyone would think that this film had any of the dramatic or emtional depth of Star Trek 2.

Guess what? They do. Personally, the opening scene to me in the film had a more emotional impact that the Spock death scene, which was still great. But that's my opinion. I personally don't have any difficulty believing someone would have a preference of one over the other.

Balls, scrotum, it's still a piece of s*** and these two wrote it and loved it.

Did they write a scrotum joke in Star Trek? NOPE. So what should it matter? It doesn't.

I do not want writers like that writing for Star Trek.

I'm sure if you write a letter to the head of Paramount (hur hur, get it?) then they will hold an emergency meeting and decide to get rid of them because you think they "loved" a scrotum line.

They didn't do anything special for the franchise

Right, because of course this film was one of many big blockbuster films in the franchise that everyone and their neighbor liked and this was just "no different?" Yep, nothing special for the franchise at all.

Abrams and his cohorts on the other hand gave us a generic summer blockbuster with "Star Trek" stamped on it.

Yet it still managed to be better than most Star Trek of the past 15 years.

Trek XI has not aged well

What?

It's barely aged at all. Let's at least wait a full year since its release before we talk about how it's 'aged'.

That's my point. Usually the newness of a film doesn't wear off for a little while but in the case of this film it has in just these brief few months.

Perhaps for you personally. But the indication of strong pre-sales would indicate that the film is about to be brand new and welcome with open arms all over again.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Really? Because there are several million dollars that say otherwise. Dollars from people who think "Sisko" makes networking products.

Their loss.

Which supports your argument in what way?

Don;t get me wrong, I love Ds9, but it's characters are not the icons the TOS ones are. Even TNG doesn't resonate the same way TOS does.

 

[Broccoli]

^ Yeah, more people are going to have a better idea who "Captain Kirk and Doctor Spock" are than who "the bald guy and the robot" are.

 

[The Wormhole]

Yet it still managed to be better than most Star Trek of the past 15 years.

Financial success does not equal quality.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yet it still managed to be better than most Star Trek of the past 15 years.

Financial success does not equal quality.

Quaility is subjective. Finacial sucess, not so much.