How did the Eugenics Wars start?

[Sci]

For the record, the Eugenics Wars duology by Greg Cox establishes that Khan seized power covertly in most of Asia. The governments nominally stayed in place, but he had them sufficiently blackmailed that they all kowtowed to his whims. Most of the civilian populace in Asia were aware of Khan's unofficial control, but the general populace in the West remained ignorant of his influence until after the Eugenics Wars -- which Cox postulates as consisting of the large series of post-Cold War brushfire wars that mostly went ignored in the U.S. -- were over. Which is not all that unrealistic when you consider that most people in the West are ignorant of, for instance, the horrific wars in Central Africa in the past thirty years.

Those were good books, but unfortunately they would only work now if you ignored the lines in ENT about the 30-35 million death toll, Archer's great, great grandfather fighting in North Africa during the conflict (To the best of my knowledge, nothing really happened around that area in the books), and the Augments in the midst of growing thousands of Augment embryos whereas in the books I don't think they were anywhere near to doing that.

I don't think that's true at all. For one thing, the books had a huge death toll -- it's just that the deaths were perceived in the U.S. as being the result of brushfire wars rather than part of a larger pattern. (And the idea that that many deaths could go unnoticed in the U.S. isn't that unrealistic when you consider that 4 million people have died in the Second Congolese War without most in the U.S. really noticing; American ethnocentrism can blind people to a lot of things.)

And Cox's books also referred to the U.S. Armed Forces as eventually getting involved; there's nothing inconsistent there with the idea of Archer's great-grandfather fighting with them in Northern Africa. (Also, bear in mind that there's no particular reason to presume that Archer's great-grandfather was fighting for the U.S. military in the Eugenics Wars.)

I don't think the Cox books ever established anything one way or the other about whether or not the Augments were in the midst of growing future Augment embryos.

 

[EJA]

I admit it's been a while since I last read the books, but I'm pretty sure it was said that Khan hadn't even begun creating new Augments when he was overthrown. Nothing was said about the other supermen, but it just seems unlikely to me.

 

[sojourner]

^ I stopped reading when he introduced Jamie Sommers. That kind of thing really kills books for me.

Sorry Greg, it's not personal. I hated the scene in the Galactic Senate with the "E.T.'s" as well.

 

[Sci]

I admit it's been a while since I last read the books, but I'm pretty sure it was said that Khan hadn't even begun creating new Augments when he was overthrown. Nothing was said about the other supermen, but it just seems unlikely to me.

Hm. Can't say I remember that.

Still, as I recall, the ENT episodes didn't specifically say that the embryos stored at Cold Station 12 were being created by the Augments as they were overthrown, just that they were left over from the Eugenics Wars. One could interpret those embryos as being left over from an alternate Project Chrysalis site.

^ I stopped reading when he introduced Jamie Sommers. That kind of thing really kills books for me.

Sorry Greg, it's not personal. I hated the scene in the Galactic Senate with the "E.T.'s" as well.

The Eugenics Wars duology has a definite playful side to it, and it's not for everyone in that regard.

 

[BrotherBenny]

I liked the books with their fictional conceits like the Equalizer.

I also find it rather easy to believe that a large death toll can go unnoticed by the US. After all, China are very good at that sort of thing, why can't other nations be good at it too?

 

[Greg Cox]

I enjoyed those ENTERPRISE episodes, but I admit I winced a few times . . . for purely personal reasons. Oh well. Being contradicted by a later episode or movie is an occupational hazard . . . .

Glad you liked the books, though.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Also, bear in mind that there's no particular reason to presume that Archer's great-grandfather was fighting for the U.S. military in the Eugenics Wars.

I thought there was. Didn't Archer say that the enemy commander was an Augment soldier?

It's heavily implied, at the very least. If the elder Archer was the Augment, then why would *he* be the one to try to convince the enemy that a school (directly in the line of fire) should be evacuated? That's not something that an Augment would normally do.

Besides, as has already been pointed out, America was never ruled by an Augment, so Archer's ancestors are not likely to *be* Augments.

 

[EJA]

My theory: In 1992 there was a mass outbreak of political/military coups across Asia and the Middle East by Augments. Khan started off as just the ruler of India, but he managed to get the majority of his brethren to acknowledge him as the supreme leader of their race and ally their nations with his to form an empire. There probably would have been some grumblings about this though, and it wouldn't be long before one of Khan's underlings rebelled against his authority and kicked off a major conflict which soon spiralled out of control and engulfed the whole of Khan's empire. The UN would have stepped in to put an end to the carnage, i.e. remove the dangerous, unpredictable supermen from power.

 

[Sci]

Also, bear in mind that there's no particular reason to presume that Archer's great-grandfather was fighting for the U.S. military in the Eugenics Wars.

I thought there was. Didn't Archer say that the enemy commander was an Augment soldier?

Yes, but Memory Alpha doesn't list what army Great-Granddaddy Archer was fighting for. For all we know, he might have been fighting for the British Army, or the French Army, or the Italian Army, or the South African Army, or the Canadian Forces.

It's heavily implied, at the very least. If the elder Archer was the Augment, then why would *he* be the one to try to convince the enemy that a school (directly in the line of fire) should be evacuated? That's not something that an Augment would normally do.

1. We don't know that that's not something an Augment would normally do. We know, at the very least, that Captain Kirk believed that Khan didn't tend to engage in large-scale civilian massacres, for instance.

2. My point was not to say that Great-Granddaddy Archer might have been fighting for an Augment -- my point was that maybe it wasn't the United States Army that was fighting the Augments! It's a bit ethnocentric to just assume that the U.S. must have been the one fighting in Northern Africa on the basis of no evidence, don't you think?

Besides, as has already been pointed out, America was never ruled by an Augment, so Archer's ancestors are not likely to *be* Augments.

Sure. I'm not saying that it couldn't have been the U.S. Army fighting the Augments, I'm saying that we shouldn't assume that it was.

 

[captcalhoun]

Greg Cox's ethnocentrism in thinking that the West is so ethnocentric as to miss a World War under their collectives noses irked me.

i would like to think that the BBC might have noticed and given it some coverage, since they managed to cover Rwanada, Bosnia and Darfur even if American networks didn't/don't.

i really can't buy a war in which 'entire populations were bombed out of existance' as being covert.

 

[Sci]

Greg Cox's ethnocentrism in thinking that the West is so ethnocentric as to miss a World War under their collectives noses irked me.

Um, that's not ethnocentrism, as Cox is a Westerner. That's criticism of the West. One might argue that it is unreasonable criticism of the West, but it's not ethnocentrism. Ethnocentrism is the belief that one's own ethnicity, race, nation, or culture is the "natural" or "default" culture against which all others are measured.

i would like to think that the BBC might have noticed and given it some coverage, since they managed to cover Rwanada, Bosnia and Darfur even if American networks didn't/don't.

i really can't buy a war in which 'entire populations were bombed out of existance' as being covert.

His notion was not that those wars were secret, but that they weren't seen as being particularly important by most people in the West, and that the role of genetically-engineered individuals went unknown by the general populace both because the Augments mostly kept themselves and/or their origins secret and because Western governments did not disseminate the information.

For a real-life comparison, consider the Second Congo War. It raged from 1998 to 2003 and killed 3.9 million people. That's huge. If a war like that broke out in Europe or North America, it would be the center of everyone's news for the entire duration and then for years after. It wasn't a secret. But it was not treated as being all that important in the Western news media -- especially as compared to, say, the 9/11 attacks, which only killed around 3,000 people but monopolized the entire Western news media apparatus for months.

 

[captcalhoun]

well, yeah, because a buncha raggedy-ass religious nuts slammed airliners into two tower blocks in the biggest city in the world's only super-power and slaughtered a few thousand innocent civilians in the most horrific terror attack ever.

compared to a buncha people in a jungle shooting each other.

 

[EJA]

Out of interest, does anyone here reckon that the discrepencies between Cox's EW novels and ENT's 'Augment Trilogy' can be reconciled? I personally find it a bit awkward, but would like to hear some ideas.

 

[Greg Cox]

^ I stopped reading when he introduced Jamie Sommers. That kind of thing really kills books for me.

Sorry Greg, it's not personal. I hated the scene in the Galactic Senate with the "E.T.'s" as well.

No problem. That's definitely a matter of taste.

For what it's worth, there are no cute cameo or in-jokes in the third Khan novel . . . aside from a fleeting reference to Captain Proton.

 

[Sci]

well, yeah, because a buncha raggedy-ass religious nuts slammed airliners into two tower blocks in the biggest city in the world's only super-power and slaughtered a few thousand innocent civilians in the most horrific terror attack ever.

compared to a buncha people in a jungle shooting each other.

So human life becomes less valuable because of where the people happen to be living? Human suffering isn't as important when it's in the Congo as when it's in New York?

I urge you to re-consider your own perceptions of the importance of other cultures and the value of the lives of people from other cultures.

The Second Congo War literally had the largest death toll of any war since World War II. Almost as many people died in the Second Congo War as died in the Holocaust. Think about that.

That the news media in most Western countries virtually ignored it represents a profound ethnocentrism on their part.

 

[Arpy]

^ I agree, but there is a difference between the ramifications of the Second Congo War and Khan's rise to power. Horrible, and shameful, as it was, the war in Africa posed little threat to the West, whereas Khan would have been the greatest threat in history.

 

[Nerys Myk]

His notion was not that those wars were secret, but that they weren't seen as being particularly important by most people in the West, and that the role of genetically-engineered individuals went unknown by the general populace both because the Augments mostly kept themselves and/or their origins secret and because Western governments did not disseminate the information.

Doesn't quite match up to the dialog in "Space Seed"

We offered the world order!

The West would notice such an "offer".

There was the war to end tyranny.Many considered that a noble effort

The implication is that this war was against the Augments. Surely the "many" would incluse Westerners.

From 1992 through 1996,absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world,from Asia through the Middle East

Doesnt sound like a power behind the throne type of guy or someone the West would overlook.

 

[EJA]

If the US could invade Iraq because they thought Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction hidden there, I doubt they would have hesitated to declare war on the Augments.

 

[Sci]

^ I agree, but there is a difference between the ramifications of the Second Congo War and Khan's rise to power. Horrible, and shameful, as it was, the war in Africa posed little threat to the West, whereas Khan would have been the greatest threat in history.

Sure -- but would the general populace in the West realize it?

Remember, like I said, part of the reason the various conflicts in The Eugenics Wars started by Augments went mostly ignored in the West was that they seemed like small brushfire wars started by the end of the Cold War. It took a long time for the U.S. government to piece together the larger picture and realize how big of a threat the Augments actually were.

His notion was not that those wars were secret, but that they weren't seen as being particularly important by most people in the West, and that the role of genetically-engineered individuals went unknown by the general populace both because the Augments mostly kept themselves and/or their origins secret and because Western governments did not disseminate the information.

Doesn't quite match up to the dialog in "Space Seed"

We offered the world order!

The West would notice such an "offer".

Would it? The West barely paid attention to al Qaeda after Osama bin Ladin's declaration of holy war on the U.S. in 1996, and still barely paid attention even after al Qaeda attacked two U.S. embassies and a Navy ship. There were all sorts of indicators that something major was going to happen in the months leading up to 9/11, but while there were whistleblowers trying to get people to pay attention, the higher-ups never put it together.

The idea that Western intelligence is omniscient and would detect any patterns to what look like an unrelated series of local wars is, I think, being far more charitable to those intelligence services than their real-life track records has warranted.

There was the war to end tyranny.Many considered that a noble effort

The implication is that this war was against the Augments. Surely the "many" would incluse Westerners.

1. Why would that many include Westerners?

2. You'll remember that I did say that the U.S. military eventually got involved in the fight against the Augments in the novels. But it took time for them to piece together what had been happening and to then take action.

From 1992 through 1996,absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world,from Asia through the Middle East

Doesnt sound like a power behind the throne type of guy

That's your interpretation, and that's valid, but there's nothing inconsistent in the idea of the absolute ruler of more than a quarter of the world being someone who wants to keep his power unofficial for a while.

or someone the West would overlook.

The West overlooked Osama bin Ladin for years. Our intelligence services are not omniscient.

 

[T'Girl]

i would like to think that the BBC might have noticed and given it some coverage, since they managed to cover Rwanada, Bosnia and Darfur even if American networks didn't/don't.

I've been seeing a lot on Darfur in the news and on cable for years now. America definitely noticed Bosnia. You're completely correct about Rwanda getting a pass, maybe the US media can't figure which side to root for.

If the US could invade Iraq because they thought Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction hidden there, I doubt they would have hesitated to declare war on the Augments.

Perhaps America decided to sit this war out. We don't involve ourselves in every last conflict, Rwanda is a example.