DS9 Fans: The Bane of Our Very Existence - Part 9,782

[Thestral]

So, since it looks like that thread won't be re-opened, I did wanna continue the conversation that was happening, since it was going somewhere interesting.

How about putting your money where your mouth is and doing a Poll in the DS9 Forum?

My general stance towards DS9 would probably result in a post with leading questions and the like. Probably better if you did one.

Hmm... unfortunately, I don't know how to do a poll, though I'd be open to it if I did. Any help?

No. They'd have gone over just as well as the Wadi, the Pah-Wraiths (in many circles), the Ferengi (when played for comedy), or Onaya. Better, in some cases.

I gotta disagree here, I'm sure on DS9 they'd have excused every last one of the flaws that they kept pointing out when they were on VOY for the VOY Aliens and they'd sing praises about them and how great their concepts were.

I think you don't understand how critical Niners can be of their own show.

And naturally, had Voyager formed a Delta Federation and the Dominion was THEIR main enemy for most of the series whom they spent battling (and the writing was the same as DS9's Dominion War), the Haters would spew endless garbage about how it was the worst idea ever and how it betrayed every one of Trek's ideals. Because when DS9 betrays a Trek Ideal it's good, when anyone else does it then it must be bad.

Oh, I doubt it. See, those who adore the Dominion War arc are often somewhat cynical regarding "Trek's ideals," and interested in exploring its grey areas - though not it's batshit evil ones as heroes, that's reserved for the fetishized "enemy." I think seeing Voyager form a Delta Federation would have been fascinating, or even the hints that, rather than spending all their time focused on getting home, they'll spread Federation values by becoming living examples in the DQ.

Heck, maybe even an anti-DS9; instead of seeing how the Federation can be corrupted and grey when challenged with an incredibly difficult war, show how it can also be a really positive force to bring people together and make the galaxy a better place. That was the basis of the very very very good novella Places of Exile in the Myriad Universes books. And it also is a really good story (IMO) for tying in the Voth and 8472, some of my favorite VOY aliens as a Niner.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

I think you don't understand how critical Niners can be of their own show.

Dude, I've run into Niners who think the Breen are among Trek's best aliens simply because they attacked Earth and were part of the Dominion War. Which automatically made them superior to every one of VOY's aliens.

Oh, I doubt it. See, those who adore the Dominion War arc are often somewhat cynical regarding "Trek's ideals," and interested in exploring its grey areas - though not it's batshit evil ones as heroes, that's reserved for the fetishized "enemy." I think seeing Voyager form a Delta Federation would have been fascinating, or even the hints that, rather than spending all their time focused on getting home, they'll spread Federation values by becoming living examples in the DQ.

They'd just complain that it was a violation of the PD and Fed values (because if anyone outside of DS9 violated Trek values, it's bad) and that one ship couldn't form an alliance like that. Or they'd complain it was too much like the Federation and not the militaristic hardline Empire they want the Federation to be.

Heck, maybe even an anti-DS9; instead of seeing how the Federation can be corrupted and grey when challenged with an incredibly difficult war, show how it can also be a really positive force to bring people together and make the galaxy a better place. That was the basis of the very very very good novella Places of Exile in the Myriad Universes books. And it also is a really good story (IMO) for tying in the Voth and 8472, some of my favorite VOY aliens as a Niner.

Like I said, if VOY did that they'd only end up criticizing every last formation decision Janeway made, nevermind they'd agree with Sisko's every choice.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

While I am not opposed to a thread based around criticising Anwar's irrational insults of "Niners", I believe that in the last thread his positions were already exposed as being... abnormal. Based on the fact that everyone else criticised him based on what he was saying and were trying to point out just how irrational he was being (to varying degrees of politeness), I think that his own arguments do a better job at defeating him than I would be able to do at the present time.

So instead I'm going to link everybody to my favourite moment in TV history. Enjoy!

"Watch this."

 

[Anwar]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

While I am not opposed to a thread based around criticising Anwar's irrational insults of "Niners", I believe that in the last thread his positions were already exposed as being... abnormal. Based on the fact that everyone else criticised him based on what he was saying and were trying to point out just how irrational he was being (to varying degrees of politeness), I think that his own arguments do a better job at defeating him than I would be able to do at the present time.

So instead I'm going to link everybody to my favourite moment in TV history. Enjoy!

"Watch this."

Dude, the hatedom just has it out for VOY than any other Trek show. In everything. And yes, if VOY had done a lot of what DS9 did (say, if "Pale Moonlight" was a VOY episode instead of DS9) they'd still get nothing but hate. That's just how it is.

And for your information, there were people who DID agree with me on how Niners have it out for VOY fans.

 

[JustKate]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

^ Yep, there were. One of them was me. I don't agree with everything Anwar said, but I do agree that there is definitely a sector of Niner fandom that, when it comes to Voyager, is absolutely irrational. How do I know they're irrational? Well, you're right - I am making an assumption here, but it's based on posts in the DS9 forum, including from people who have actually seen only a few episodes of Voyager but nonetheless know for a fact that "it sucks" and that Janeway is the worst captain in the entire history of Trek, etc., etc., etc.

It's true that DS9 fans - and I am one, by the way (I like/love, depending on my mood, all the Trek shows except ENT) - can be quite rational about their own favorite show or shows. But not all of them are, and some of those who are irrational are extraordinarily vocal about it.

And I also think that there are some who can be quite rational about criticism so long as it's...well, "in the family," so to speak. But if someone they perceive of as being too anti-DS9 says something, however justified, some of them can get...a bit less rational, let's say.

Really, based on my time in the DS9 forum, I'd say that the most popular negative sentiment in the DS9 forum is a tie between "TNG is bland" and "Voyager sucks!" If you want to make yourself the target of nasty posts in the DS9 forum, all you have to do is say, "I like Voyager. It's not perfect but it's a good show."

 

[rahullak]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

It's just sad that Anwar takes only the people who hate Voyager and makes them official representatives of Niners or some such and totally ignores the people who actually like both shows, with some who like DS9 over Voy and other who like Voy over DS9. Why not make Niners who like Voyager, representative of the Niners? And TNG fans who like DS9 representative of TNG fans, and DS9 fans who like TNG, representative of DS9 fans, and Voy fans who like DS9 be representative of Voy fans etc.?

Besides, if the "hatedom" pisses you off so much, Anwar why bother with them? You're only going into a negative spiral, where you're constantly looking for anyone who says anything that sounds to you to be remotely critical of your beloved shows, and make them out to be part of "the hatedom" or a "hater for life" or some such, which actually makes you look like a hater who thrives on negativity. You could so easily spend time on the positive aspects of every show.

Anyway, that's my opinion. What you do with your time is your business.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

Why not make Niners who like Voyager, representative of the Niners? And TNG fans who like DS9 representative of TNG fans, and DS9 fans who like TNG, representative of DS9 fans, and Voy fans who like DS9 be representative of Voy fans etc.?

Because they hardly ever say anything to show they exist, and when any of these types show up they hardly do anything to show that they do like both shows. It's usually "DS9 or bust!"

Besides, if the "hatedom" pisses you off so much, Anwar why bother with them? You're only going into a negative spiral, where you're constantly looking for anyone who says anything that sounds to you to be remotely critical of your beloved shows, and make them out to be part of "the hatedom" or a "hater for life" or some such, which actually makes you look like a hater who thrives on negativity. You could so easily spend time on the positive aspects of every show.

I try, but they're so prevalent and widespread that it's nigh-impossible. And they've been critiquing for so long and so often that you can't run into one of them without wanting to strike back and point out that they're hardly the "above it all" types they claim to be.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

^ Yep, there were. One of them was me. I don't agree with everything Anwar said, but I do agree that there is definitely a sector of Niner fandom that, when it comes to Voyager, is absolutely irrational. How do I know they're irrational? Well, you're right - I am making an assumption here, but it's based on posts in the DS9 forum, including from people who have actually seen only a few episodes of Voyager but nonetheless know for a fact that "it sucks" and that Janeway is the worst captain in the entire history of Trek, etc., etc., etc.

But, and this is important, do you believe that those people set out to hate Voyager before it even aired in 1995? Do you believe that I as a nine-year-old boy was determined to hate Voyager for some unknown and incomprehensible reason? Do you believe that it is impossible for me to love both DS9 and TNG at the same time? Or for me to have liked Enterprise?

Because that is what Anwar advocates, a world where a nine year old who had little interest in DS9 when Voyager started to air still set out to hate it because it had the audacity to exist. I don't deny that some Niners are overly harsh on Voyager, perhaps even myself, I deny that all Niners are like that, or that all criticisms of Voyager are irrational.

Because they hardly ever say anything to show they exist, and when any of these types show up they hardly do anything to show that they do like both shows. It's usually "DS9 or bust!"

And yet, when I say these things you just accuse me of lying. That's why I find you so offensive.

 

[JustKate]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

I honestly think that among a certain segment of DS9 fandom - not all, by any means, but some of the more, um, fervent fans - the "fact" that Voyager is irredeemably awful has become a received truth: unquestioned, unquestionable, and, in their minds, absolutely proven. This is true, as I mentioned above, even of some fans who will (eventually) tell you that they only watched a few episodes.

And there is also a strong - though certainly not universal - sentiment that anybody who likes Voyager it isn't a true fan of DS9 and probably not a true fan of Trek at all. (You run into a similar sentiment among absolute TOS fans, too - that the only "real" Trek is TOS.)

As for avoiding it, I agree that would be a good idea, but in the case of Voyager, the only way to avoid it is to avoid all forums except...well, this one. And that's no fun, particularly if you like one or more of the other shows.

 

[JustKate]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

^ Yep, there were. One of them was me. I don't agree with everything Anwar said, but I do agree that there is definitely a sector of Niner fandom that, when it comes to Voyager, is absolutely irrational. How do I know they're irrational? Well, you're right - I am making an assumption here, but it's based on posts in the DS9 forum, including from people who have actually seen only a few episodes of Voyager but nonetheless know for a fact that "it sucks" and that Janeway is the worst captain in the entire history of Trek, etc., etc., etc.

But, and this is important, do you believe that those people set out to hate Voyager before it even aired in 1995? Do you believe that I as a nine-year-old boy was determined to hate Voyager for some unknown and incomprehensible reason? Do you believe that it is impossible for me to love both DS9 and TNG at the same time? Or for me to have liked Enterprise?

Some did. But I expect most of them watched a few episodes and then dismissed the show. Which is fine with me - I mean, life's too short to spend a lot of time with a show you dislike. But I do think there are cases - it certainly seems that way in the DS9 forum - where that dislike has increased with time...even if they've never watched VOY since it went off the air and didn't watch it for very long when it was on the air. Which is just weird. How can you dislike a show when it comes out, stop watching it shortly thereafter, never watch it again...and yet still hate it more than you did originally?

And then there are those people who have a certain crusading spirit to their anti-VOYness. It's very odd. And very annoying. And a bit disquieting sometimes, you know? I mean, jeez, it's a TV show, folks.

Because that is what Anwar advocates, a world where a nine year old who had no interest in DS9 when Voyager started to air still set out to hate it because it had the audacity to exist. I don't deny that some Niners are overly harsh on Voyager, perhaps even myself, I deny that all Niners are like that, or that all criticisms of Voyager are irrational.

I said that I didn't agree with everything he said, and I stand by that, but I also think that emotions got a bit high and one or more people said more than they intended. If I'm wrong about that, I hope those folks will correct me.

But of course, as I said, not all Niners are like that and not all criticisms of Voyager are irrational. I've made a number of criticisms myself, as you know.

 

[exodus]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

While I am not opposed to a thread based around criticising Anwar's irrational insults of "Niners", I believe that in the last thread his positions were already exposed as being... abnormal. Based on the fact that everyone else criticised him based on what he was saying and were trying to point out just how irrational he was being (to varying degrees of politeness), I think that his own arguments do a better job at defeating him than I would be able to do at the present time.

So instead I'm going to link everybody to my favourite moment in TV history. Enjoy!

"Watch this."

Dude, the hatedom just has it out for VOY than any other Trek show. In everything. And yes, if VOY had done a lot of what DS9 did (say, if "Pale Moonlight" was a VOY episode instead of DS9) they'd still get nothing but hate. That's just how it is.

And for your information, there were people who DID agree with me on how Niners have it out for VOY fans.

I agree too.
While you do speak in generalized terms, there is much truth in what you say.

 

[Thor Damar]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

I just want to go on record as a Niner and state that I do not hate VGR. I have seen many episodes of which some I liked (Year of Hell,Dragon's teeth and scorpion to name a few) the rest I was mostly neutral about and would not watch more than once but I did not hate 'em.
(how can a nerd like me hate any ST?)

I like the idea of Voyager creating a Delta Federation it's why I think that Alliances and the Void were episodes with great potential IMHO.

Yes, DS9 is my favorite trek but that doesn't mean that I don't like other trek
(and I'm a big SW and B5 fan to boot so I'm kinda catholic about my sci-fi)

I now return you to your scheduled thread.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

As a Niner...I tried to like Voyager. I really did. And I actually wasn't doing that badly with it until Seven of Nine came along--so I gave it a little over three years to make up my mind. With Seven of Nine, I have honest disagreements with the introduction of that character and how she was treated. (And no, I'm not a Jeri Ryan hater, either...I genuinely liked her in Boston Public where she got to wear normal clothes and show a fuller personality.) I also do not agree with the way the Borg were handled on Voyager...but I should make it clear that I was fine with everything up to and including First Contact. But that was another thing that made me stop watching. (There's a host of other factors as well...but that's the straw that broke the camel's back.)

I will be honest and say that as I got older, I did become a much more cynical person about politics, human nature, and so on. And those of you who have been in the DS9 forum will even see my jokes about being a Cardassian. I had originally been a fan of both TNG and DS9, but now...I think the best way to describe it is that I do not want to rewatch most TNG episodes because I want to leave alone my memories of enjoying the show when I was little. I recognize that this is me. That this does not mean Voyager fans or TNG fans are wrong for liking what they like, or that there's any need to harp on them. But because of how I have changed, I don't really have the closeness to any of the other Trek incarnations anymore, except as background for the segments that DO interest me.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

Because that is what Anwar advocates, a world where a nine year old who had little interest in DS9 when Voyager started to air still set out to hate it because it had the audacity to exist. I don't deny that some Niners are overly harsh on Voyager, perhaps even myself, I deny that all Niners are like that, or that all criticisms of Voyager are irrational.

Yeah, that's why the DS9 forums have posts that are fair to VOY and its' characters and admit that maybe it is possible to maintain one's moral and social values in a hard time. Oh wait, no it doesn't. In fact it's very much the opposite.

And yes, having been there at the time I can say with a honest face that there were people of all ages in 1995 who despised the show for existing and just tuned into the Premiere to laugh or sneer. And to this day they've not stopped laughing and sneering.

And let's not forget that criticisms of VOY include gems such as "They should have the traditional Trek races in VOY and not new ones!" and "A Black Vulcan? WTH is this?!"

And yet, when I say these things you just accuse me of lying. That's why I find you so offensive.

You've openly stated you're a VOY hater. That's just simple truth. You hate VOY and love DS9, you fit the profile perfectly of the kind of people I say exist.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

Some did. But I expect most of them watched a few episodes and then dismissed the show. Which is fine with me - I mean, life's too short to spend a lot of time with a show you dislike. But I do think there are cases - it certainly seems that way in the DS9 forum - where that dislike has increased with time...even if they've never watched VOY since it went off the air and didn't watch it for very long when it was on the air. Which is just weird. How can you dislike a show when it comes out, stop watching it shortly thereafter, never watch it again...and yet still hate it more than you did originally?

Replace the word VOY with nuBSG and the word DS9 with the general TV forums and everything you said would still be valid. I loved the new Battlestar Galactica, it is one of my all-time favourite shows, but there's some people that post on this board and are constantly critical towards it to the point where they are exaggerating or just plain lying to defend their position. I find that irritating. I can name at least three haters off the top of my head who admitted to having never watched it or only seen the first couple of episodes, that's all their hatred is based on. And it is hatred, an obsessive, irrational hatred.

Then there's people who just didn't like the show. They don't like its tone, they don't like its characters, they don't like the style of writing. I have no problem with those people, they gave the show a shot and decided it wasn't for them, and that's where a vast majority of the criticisms of BSG come from. Sometimes they take pot-shots at the show, but that doesn't mean they're obsessed, that's just what some of us do when we don't like a show. I don't agree with them, but not every show is going to be to everyone's taste so to those ordinary people that don't like BSG I can only wish them well.

I make sure not to get the two different groups confused.

And then there are those people who have a certain crusading spirit to their anti-VOYness. It's very odd. And very annoying. And a bit disquieting sometimes, you know? I mean, jeez, it's a TV show, folks.

Oh god, I hate those guys! They're so up their own arse that it's unbelievable! And don't get me started at how unfunny they are.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

You've openly stated you're a VOY hater. That's just simple truth. You hate VOY and love DS9, you fit the profile perfectly of the kind of people I say exist.

Except, you know, I don't.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

Hating VOY, loving DS9. You saying you're lying over that?

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

Hating VOY, loving DS9. You saying you're lying over that?

I don't hate Voyager, I merely dislike it. I also love TNG and like Enterprise, neither of of which fits into your pattern of what a Niner is. I'm not the one lying here, you just constantly accuse me of lying for no reason.

 

[JustKate]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

You've openly stated you're a VOY hater. That's just simple truth. You hate VOY and love DS9, you fit the profile perfectly of the kind of people I say exist.

Except, you know, I don't.

But he isn't really a hater, Anwar - after reading many and probably most of his reviews, I attribute the title of his review thread mostly to a good instinct as to what makes for an eye-catching title. And it works. One of the things that I do for a living is writing headlines and I know what I'm talking about here.

And besides..."hater" sounds so much more definitive and vigorous than "Eh, I didn't like the show when it came out, but I decided to give it another chance."

 

[Anwar]

Re: Contuing Conversation: My Poor Husband

And it's painting a bull's eye on your forehead if you expect VOY fans to take you seriously.

I read most of those reviews too, pretty clear that after he finishes them (and rates VOY at something along 3/10) he'll go on to give DS9 a 10/10 score while giving skin deep reviews.

As for loving TNG and liking ENT, I'll give him a "tolerance" towards those shows as a more precise definition of how he feels about them. I'm still disgusted by the Niners who say Sisko should never have forgiven Picard and hated him forever because the idea of any of the characters from DS9 liking anyone from TNG is also disgusting to them. How THOSE guys can call themselves Trek fans I'll never get.

Then again, seeing how all of them became Moore's lapdogs and BSG worshipers (the same show that outright condemned Trek as not being real people in the least) I don't think they are really Trek fans.