Star Trek vs. Warhammer 40k

[The_Emperor]

Pretty good summary, but a couple of clarifications.

The Imperium of Man consists of hundreds of thousands of inhabited worlds

The Imperium is usually described as having a million worlds, and in some sources it's stated to have millions of worlds. Either way, a bare minimum of one million is pretty safe to say, with their territory stretching across 90,000 light years in the Milky Way galaxy.

and some of them are called Hive Worlds that contain up to a hundred billion people.

According to the 3rd edition rulebook, 100 billion is the minimum. Hive Worlds have populations ranging from 100-500 billion. And according to the 5th edition rulebook, the Imperium has about 32,380 of them.

but they are in constant danger of just falling apart.

Trust me, Imperial ships aren't in danger of falling apart. These're ships that are capable of surviving thousands of years of service. They're very tough.

and for sure very outclassed by Starfleet vessels. However they are heavily armored and shielded and did i mention big so one needs to inflict quite some damage to really affect them.

Outclassed in what way? Maneuverability is about all a Starfleet vessel has over them, but that's to be expected from something vastly smaller. In nearly every other way an Imperial vessel is superior. It's larger, has far more firepower, its weapons can inflict levels of devastation which make the weapons on a Starfleet ship pale in comparison, has shields and hull plating that can resist similar firepower in return, and its FTL is massively superior. Sure, they don't got astrometrics labs aboard, but who needs 'em?

Another thing to take into consideration are boarding actions.. if done by "normal" imperial Navy personell then they'd be not that different to Starfleet personell. Maybe leaning a bit more to the true military but they'd be a match for Starfleet (Starfleet officers rarely wear any kind of body armor).

They'd be a bit superior. They do wear body armor, after all, but then again we're talking phasers. So it depends how far you turn up the dial on the phasers, but their body armor could probably resist the low settings. More importantly, though, the Imperial troops are armed with automatic energy weapons that can lay down a veritable hail of fire. That outclasses the one-shot phaser, no matter how powerful each individual shot is.

And to top it off, most Imperial troops hail from insanely violent worlds like Hive Worlds, Feral Worlds, and Death Worlds. So those Imperial troopers, even the standard ones, have probably experienced far more horror and bloodshed than any Starfleet Officer has seen in his whole life, and that was before they joined the Guard! An Imperial soldier is just as likely to hail from a feral world, in which case he may end up scalping you, or may be a headhunter.

Sure the imperial technology sucks in comparison to Starfleet but a single direct hit by an imperial weapons battery or a lance battery (huge, honkin' superlaser) would instantly destroy even a Sovereign class.

Yeah. The lesser guns on some Imperial ships are the size of a Sovereign, alone, and they have several guns that're just as big. Imperial torpedoes on the cruisers and battleships are 1/10th to 1/7th the length of the Sovereign Class. And from calculations done by others based off of evidence in the books, the weaponry has a power output in the terraton to petaton range. Even the smallest and weakest ship in the Imperial Navy, the Cobra Class Destroyer, is still something in the neighborhood of 5 times bigger than the Sovereign.

Although when it comes to Imperial technology, it varies. A lot of their stuff is left over from previous ages, but they've still got some pretty amazing tech. For instance, they've got access to technology allowing their weapons to bypass shields. One novel has a ship firing a torpedo which completely bypasses the shields of a target (no idea of the commonality of this device, but given that torpedoes can bypass shields entirely...). This technology is even miniaturized so much that they can put it on a special brand of bullet for their assassins.

They have a drug callled polymorphine which allows for rapid shapechanging, allowing for far greater infiltration than the simple surgical alterations performed by Starfleet. They have access to vortex weaponry, which literally splits a hole in reality, utterly destroying anything within the blast radius of the weapon. You'll find these weapons aboard ships, titans, and you'll even find them in the hands of Imperial agents (vortex grenades!).

The Imperium also has personal force field technology, and you'll find all their most important commanders and field leaders protected by one kind of personal force field or another. One of the most impressive being the displacer field, which is a miniatured warp drive and a proximity sensor. When it detects incoming projectiles, it literally warps you out of the way.

Not to mention body armor and power armor, none of which the Federation uses. As well as power weapons and power fists (giant mechanical gauntlets granting the wearer superhuman strength). Jump packs for rapid transportation. Nevermind force weaponry which their psykers make great use of.

And of course, their FTL is vastly superior (if unreliable, but that's a result of the environment they travel through and not a deficiency of the FTL system, itself. If warp space were more calm, warp travel would be more reliable). A standard Imperial ship can travel 10,000 light years in 10-40 days. That's likely just a transport. A Space Marine ship, for example, can travel much faster then that.

By way of comparison, if an Imperial ship had been kidnapped by the Caretaker and found itself 70,000 light years from where it started, it would've only taken 70-280 days to get back. Not the 60+ years that it would've taken Voyager. The Federation is 8,000 light years across, so an Imperial ship can cross the entire span of the Federation in 8-32 days.

Those are just some examples of ways that Imperial technology surpasses Federation technology. Don't let simplistic weapons like the lasgun fool you. They're much more sophisticated then they appear. They just prefer to use lower tech tools because A) they're cheaper, B) they're easier to mass produce, C) they're easier to repair and/or replace in the field, and D) they're much more durable than more advanced items, which're also conversely more delicate.

The lasgun, despite its simplicity, can literally be taken into any environment, abused by the rigors of war, and it'll continue functioning. It's simple enough that enough a primitive savage from a backwater world can learn to use and maintain it. And it can even be charged by leaving its power cells out in the open, where they're charged by solar power, or by even putting the batteries inside a fire! And to top it off, it serves well enough as a tool of war, ably killing most of the enemies Imperial troops come across. Is a phaser better? In most ways, sure. But for all the reasons listed above and more, the lasgun is a better tool of war, which is why the Imperium favors it (and frankly, the Federation troopers at the Siege of AR-558 would've done much better armed with lasguns than phaser rifles. What's the point of having a weapon that can melt a rockface when the situation calls for a weapon that will still kill the enemy while putting out a greater fussilade of fire? And the lasgun, an automatic weapon with easily replaceable ammo, is that weapon).

If we are going the realism route then Starfleet torpedoes should have been vastly more powerful than depicted in the shows.. they contain warheads that are vastly more powerful than any nuclear bomb and should some of them detonate inside an imperial ship then even they stand no chance

The only question is, how would they even get inside the hull? Imperial torpedoes are designed to penetrate some distance into a hull before detonating, but a Starfleet torpedo? It's clearly designed to impact on the hull. And the hulls on Imperial ships, even without shields, or able to withstand terratons of firepower. Maybe more. So while they could inflict some damage over time, it wouldn't be fast enough. What Starfleet would need, aside from a vastly more powerful torpedo then what's seen in canon, and getting lucky in finding an unshielded Imperial ship, is a torpedo which is designed to penetrate through a hull, first, before going off. Not an easy feat, though, when you're talking about a meters thick hull composed of adamantium.

 

[Jono]

^ Probably the best defence for Starfleet ships is that the corridors probably aren't big enough to fit a normally armoured Space Marine, let alone one in Terminator armour!

 

[The_Emperor]

Federation ships can manuver and fire at warp speeds.

I've seen people say that, but I've never seen any evidence of that. Didn't we have a Voyager episode explicitly tell us that you can only go in a straight line while moving at warp speed? Hard to maneuver if you're limited to straight lines.

Either way, the fact that we only see ships fight at impulse speed should be a pretty big indicator that Star Trek ships don't fight at warp speeds. The only time they fire at warp is when they're chasing somebody else down at warp and want to knock them out of warp. And once they're out of warp, they go to impulse speed for the actual combat. Nobody really fights at warp speed. Nevermind that it'd be fairly pointless. You'd get off, what, one shot at best before you blow right past your opponent, have to drop out of warp, turn around, and head back to the battlezone? It seems like a complete waste of time just thinking about it, and given that nobody ever does it in the shows, that opinion seems fairly justified.

 

[Jono]

^ Usually the fighting at warp is done in terms of a "chase", rather then a direct engagement. Examples, the USS Centuar chasing the Jem'Hadar attack ship Sisko and co were in and the USS Voyager going after the USS...I want to say Equine but I know that's not right, whatever was the name of the Nova class vessel they found in the DQ.

The closest I can think of would be the USS Prometheus engaging and disabling a Nebula in VOY's "Message in the Bottle". That was a pretty poor showing though with the Nebula not attempting not to be surrounding or even firing once the ship split into its separate parts. But then again battles in Trek are more about entertainment then actually been realistic (or as realistic as you can be with fictional ships and weapons three hundred years in the future) or making any sense.

I remember I brought up the lack of ships launching attacks at warp against targets at impulse and I think someone said there were examples in TOS.

 

[The_Emperor]

The ship in Voyager was the Equinox.

As for TOS, who knows. Maybe. But I'd say that later series' supercede anything there. Especially when you have an episode which explicitly states that warp speed entails moving only in a straight line, and we have countless episodes showing us just that, with ships dropping to impulse in order to turn (Like "Unto the Breach", where Kor's Bird of Prey drops out of warp, turns around, then jumps back into warp to attack the pursuing Jem'Hadar). So it's clear that you can't maneuver at warp.

 

[The_Emperor]

^ Probably the best defence for Starfleet ships is that the corridors probably aren't big enough to fit a normally armoured Space Marine, let alone one in Terminator armour!

They can probably fit.

...maybe only one at a time, single file, but they'll fit.

I can see the doors giving them problems, though. But then again, when you've got a power fist or a chainfist, there's no such thing as a door that's "too small". To small? Well, then, make it bigger!

 

[SilentP]

Imperium without a doubt, an invasion by them on the Federation would make Wolf 359 look like a minor skirmish. Hell, if the Imperium just had to take on the Star Trek galaxy without having to deal with it's enemies in it's own franchise's galaxy, I wouldn't put it past them to take over the galaxy.

To add to all the points stated about technology, numbers and ferocity of the assault, imagine the morale/psychological problems the ST galaxy would have facing such an unrelenting enemy that's willing to commit the atrocities that would appaul any of the ST races. Not to mention the fact that humans in the ST Universe could end up being viewed suspciously by all the other races (especially considering the ease the Imperium would have in infiltrating the Federation and Starfleet), leading to a potential fracturing of one of the major powers in any such fight.

 

[Spiderpope]

Size is not that important. Federation ships can manuver and fire at warp speeds. The imperial ships would never know what hit them.

Even if the Federation have the ability to fight at warp, its irrelevant against the Imperium because the Imperium doesnt use the same FTL method. Imperial ships punch a hole into an alternate reality known as The Warp, or Immaterium. Its a realm of surging energy, and ships use these tides and flows to travel long distances. Its also incredibly dangerous, and home to the Chaos Gods and various Daemons.

The Federation can warp about all it wants, but it will never encounter an Imperial ship doing the same. And if they made the idiotic attempt to cross over into The Warp without a Gellar field, the Imperium would be the least of the things they had to worry about.

As for what hit them, any attack by a Federation ship would barely dent an Imperial ships Void Shields.

Do these Imperium folks have transporters or any way to block them?

Because if they don't: game over.

Yes and Yes. And given how Imperial teleporters work, i doubt Federation shields could block them. A single squad of Terminators could take any Federation ship. Hell i'd place bets on a squad of Space Marine Scouts being able to do it. You cannot underestimate how effective Space Marines are in the 40k universe- one squad of seven was able to hold off an invasion force of thousands in one novel.

Were the Imperium to encounter the Federation, then not only would the Imperium decimate any Starfleet fleet, they would then continue to seek out and exterminate any and all Federation worlds. There is no way they would allow such Xenos loving Heretics to live. Especially when they are claiming to be from Terra too.

 

[The_Emperor]

Yes and Yes. And given how Imperial teleporters work, i doubt Federation shields could block them.

I thought so at first, but apparently shields do block their teleportation. Other powers in the 40k universe have shields (which don't interact with the warp) and they can also block teleportation. So yeah, sadly, no teleporting Terminators abord the bridge of Voyager and gunning down Janeway, Harry Kim, and Chakotay with storm bolter fire.

Were the Imperium to encounter the Federation, then not only would the Imperium decimate any Starfleet fleet, they would then continue to seek out and exterminate any and all Federation worlds. There is no way they would allow such Xenos loving Heretics to live. Especially when they are claiming to be from Terra too.

Without the distraction of their fellow galactic powers, the Imperium could likely devastate the Federation within days of encountering them. Think about it. They've likely got at least a million ships, while the Federation has, what, 30,000 according to Ron Moore? The Imperium can cross Federation space in days, while it takes Starfleet ships years to cross their own territory. And there're only 150 main worlds with thousands of colonies (let's say the total number of worlds, then, is 10,000). The Imperium can literally assault each and every single world in the Federation simultaneously!

But if they wanted to play it safe, they'd go straight for the primary 150 worlds making up the Federation, and divide their fleet up accordingly. The Imperial Navy would divvy up those 150 worlds, assigning 6,666 ships to each. With the Imperial Guard at about 15 trillion (a safe lowball estimate on my part which I can back up if anyone wants), that's 100 billion Imperial Guardsmen per planet. More then enough to crunch any ground resistance that they might encounter. Hell, that's more Guardsman than the populations of any of those planets! Is there any world in the Federation that has 100 billion people or more?

The Space Marines, in the meantime, will reinforce the attacks on Vulcan, Tellar, Andor, and Earth. 1,000 Space Marine Chapters with approximately 2,500 Battle Barges and 8,000 Strike Cruisers means 600 Battle Barges and 2,000 Strike Cruisers for each of those worlds, bringing the total number of ships assaulting them to 9,266. Each world will also, in addition to 100 billion Guardsmen, be hit by 250,000 Space Marines. Those forces will include 12,500 Terminators.

Note that this is disregarding the Adeptus Mechanicus, their fleets, and the Titan Legions.

So assuming Starfleet divides up into four individual fleets protecting their four most powerful and important worlds, we're talking 7,500 Starfleet ships versus 9,266 Imperial ships, most of which are capable of destroying a Starfleet vessel in a single shot. Even if all 30,000 gather about Earth, and even with a 3-to-1 advantage in numbers, Imperial ships still grossly overpower them, and the entirety of Starfleet would be obliterated.

With Starfleet utterly destroyed within minutes, save for the few remaining ships which had the good sense to warp out of the battle zone, the Imperium would continue with their ground assaults on the heart of the Federation. The Space Marines would strike at the key Starfleet and government facilities, while the Imperial Guard would squelch any resistance. The core of the Federation would be effectively dead within hours of the beginning of the assault.

The Imperium will then finish mopping up the much weaker colony worlds before turning their attention to the Romulans, the Klingons, the Dominion, the Borg, and every other power in the Star Trek universe, all the while they busy themselves with the work of exterminating all the aliens in the Federation and indoctrinating the human populace into the Imperial Creed and devotion to the Emperor. That's pretty much how things would go. And the story would be pretty much the same if they attacked the Romulans and the Klingons at the same time as the Federation, too, except it might take a week for the Imperium to win, instead of a day. That and more Klingon and Romulan ships are likely to survive the battle as they can cloak and hide from the Imperials better than the Starfleet ships.

Those Klingon and Romulan ships (along with any remaining Starfleet ships. I imagine that, by that point, the Romulans would be willing to share some cloaking devices with them) may continue to be trouble for Imperial holdings at first, but only a pesky one, seeing as how they'll have to run the moment Imperial Navy ships show up to protect their newly conquered worlds. And once each world has a planetary governor, and they began constructing system monitors for their defense, thus not needing to rely on the Imperial Navy to protect them, there would be nothing they'd be able to do. They'd be forced to leave their former home territories and hope to find a region of space where the Imperium won't go, and which isn't controlled by someone who's worse. Good luck with that.

 

[Demiurge]

LOL. In the meantime, the Imperium has a serious problem dealing with Orcs running around in trikes, jets and wielding 'shootas' and axes. And there's so little mechanization that torpedoes being fired from the Imperium starship have to be carted around on chains and loaded by hand by hundreds of people. It's in the illustrations of the Battlefleet Gothic game itself.

Warhammer 40K is a very fun universe but it's even less internally consistent than Trek, and that's saying something.

There's always a problem in power levels between games/novels and something that actually has to be shot on the screen. Budget considerations effect the scale of things you can do on a TV show. You look at the Trek novels, you actually see considerably higher tech. The other thing is that novel portrayals don't have the cool visual effects so largely rely on hyperbole - for example I recall one Trek novel where the structural integrity field was turned on so high that the Enterprise was denser than a neutron star.

It's fun to compare franchises but it's all pretty much about what assumptions you make.

 

[Arrqh]

LOL. In the meantime, the Imperium has a serious problem dealing with Orcs running around in trikes, jets and wielding 'shootas' and axes.

The Orks are, however, a genetically engineered warrior race with an intrinsic knowledge of how to build advanced technology and generate a gestalt psychic field capable of altering physical reality. Yeah, the Orks are fun, but just because they're stupid doesn't mean they aren't capable

 

[SilentP]

LOL. In the meantime, the Imperium has a serious problem dealing with Orcs running around in trikes, jets and wielding 'shootas' and axes.

The Orks are, however, a genetically engineered warrior race with an intrinsic knowledge of how to build advanced technology and generate a gestalt psychic field capable of altering physical reality. Yeah, the Orks are fun, but just because they're stupid doesn't mean they aren't capable

The fact that they literally grow like a fungus and that they have the numbers to overwhelm even the 40K universe if they were actually united, is a bit of a challenge. I'd hate to see how the Star Trek universe to deal with them

 

[Demiurge]

LOL. In the meantime, the Imperium has a serious problem dealing with Orcs running around in trikes, jets and wielding 'shootas' and axes.

The Orks are, however, a genetically engineered warrior race with an intrinsic knowledge of how to build advanced technology and generate a gestalt psychic field capable of altering physical reality. Yeah, the Orks are fun, but just because they're stupid doesn't mean they aren't capable

The fact that they literally grow like a fungus and that they have the numbers to overwhelm even the 40K universe if they were actually united, is a bit of a challenge. I'd hate to see how the Star Trek universe to deal with them

Actually, the Trek universe would be particularly efficacious against them. The problem the Imps face is that it's tough to clear infestations because of the spores.

The Federation would likely be able to detect the life signs and deal with the spores before they became viable. Sensor tech there is superior.

And the Orcs, while numerous, aren't all that impressive compared to say the Jem Haddar.

The real issue between the two universes is scale.

So it depends on how you posit the initial interaction. If it's a wormhole between the two universes, then that significantly decreases the WH40K numerical advantage.

 

[SilentP]

Actually, the Trek universe would be particularly efficacious against them. The problem the Imps face is that it's tough to clear infestations because of the spores.

The Federation would likely be able to detect the life signs and deal with the spores before they became viable. Sensor tech there is superior.

Actually this is a fair point, I'll give you that.

And the Orcs, while numerous, aren't all that impressive compared to say the Jem Haddar.

Less impressive than Jem'Hadar? How do you figure that? Admiteddly a Jem'Hadar grows faster and is more intelligent, but Orks have sheer strength, crude ingenuity par none, not addicted to any substance, and far hardier than a Jem'Hadar.

The real issue between the two universes is scale.

So it depends on how you posit the initial interaction. If it's a wormhole between the two universes, then that significantly decreases the WH40K numerical advantage.

Very true point, considering the time it usually take for the Imperium to round up an invasion force, but even if all the Star Trek universe had to do was hold a wormhole, the numbers of the 40K universe would tell eventually, and if there's one thing the 40K universe has, its reserves.

One problem however with combining these two universes is how would the differing mechanics of the same functions (FTL, telepathic powers) combine/interact with such a meeting? Would one take precedence, say for example, all 40K ships suddenly found themselves travelling through subspace instead of the Warp? Or would the two sets of physic continue to take effect independently of each other? All I can say is, if that the Warp takes precedence for telepathic powers and FtL, Star Trek is screwed twelve shades of Christmas turkey.

 

[Demiurge]

Less impressive than Jem'Hadar? How do you figure that? Admiteddly a Jem'Hadar grows faster and is more intelligent, but Orks have sheer strength, crude ingenuity par none, not addicted to any substance, and far hardier than a Jem'Hadar.

Jem'Hadar are smarter, far more tactical, and have far better equipment, while not exactly being slouches themselves in the hand to hand department (admittedly the least important component here).

Even the biggest Orks tech advantage, shields, are nullified by phased polaron beams that likely ignore them.

Combine that with the Jem'hadar's inherent cloak and large advantage in transporter technology?

Plus trek beam weapons are just NASTY - 100 year older models of hand phasers and disruptors can disenigrate things outright. The Jem'hadar polaron rifles are also anit-coagulant - though that wouldn't effect the Orks as much as other races, to be sure!

I'd say a likely clash would be an Ork WAAAGH! against a Dominion held planet. The Dominion would cut the Ork fleet to shreds (they aren't very capable there) but probably wouldn't have the raw firepower to stop the Ork Spacehulk from getting to the planet.

But once on the planet, the Orks wouldn't find the going nearly as easy as against other Trek races. The Dominion are nasty, can be just as brutish, just as fanatical, have better tech, and are far, far smarter than the Orks. Only huge advantages of numbers would ever allow them to prevail IMO.

Of course, there is the rare Ork psyker, but those guys are just as dangerous to the other Orks as they are their enemies based on what I've read. And there's also the rare Vorta psyker.

One problem however with combining these two universes is how would the differing mechanics of the same functions (FTL, telepathic powers) combine/interact with such a meeting? Would one take precedence, say for example, all 40K ships suddenly found themselves travelling through subspace instead of the Warp? Or would the two sets of physic continue to take effect independently of each other? All I can say is, if that the Warp takes precedence for telepathic powers and FtL, Star Trek is screwed twelve shades of Christmas turkey.

Yeah, I agree with that reasoning. Again, it depends on how you posit the interaction of the two universes. If it's a broad frontier, then the small Trek empires would get swamped. If it's a single point in space, depends on the timeline - the Feds cloaked self-replicating mines are pretty friggin' nasty. As of the last movie, the Vulcan Science institute could just create a black hole directly in the path of the wormhole.

But it depends on the assumptions again. For example, the Trek galaxy has entire races of telepaths. All Imperial space travel is based on the telepathic beacons. It would be interesting to see what would happen if say all the Betazeds and Vulcans tried to disrupt those beacons.

But then that's the fun of speculating. The Imperium is definitely more massive and warlike, and would have an advantage on that score. However, it's also fractious and faces rebellion constantly - something that the Federation would be able to exploit, provided it lived long enough to do so.

 

[The_Emperor]

Jem'Hadar are smarter, far more tactical, and have far better equipment, while not exactly being slouches themselves in the hand to hand department (admittedly the least important component here).

Orks can be pretty tactical, too, depending on the experience of their warboss. As for equipment, Jem'Hadar have what, their rifles? Ork guns may not be as powerful, but they'll still kill a Jem'Hadar dead. And that's in addition to all the other crazy weapons they've got.

Even the biggest Orks tech advantage, shields, are nullified by phased polaron beams that likely ignore them.

An illogical assumption. The Federation was able to defeat those beams immediately after their first encounter with the Dominion, and never had to worry about them, again. How much harder would it be for them to work on Ork tech when 40k shields are more powerful, and Orks are the most capable force field producers of them all (Yes, I realize how bizarre it is to say that Orks are the most advanced in any area. Thank the Old Ones for that)?

And as mentioned before, Orks can be pretty tactical. They're stupid, yes, but their stupidity obviously doesn't hold back their tech level, as they were programmed with the knowledge to make their technology. Likewise, they were programmed to produce kunnin' warlords who're tactical geniuses. You just gotta read up on some of the things Orks have done to see that they're not half-bad at all. A typical Ork Warlord is a pretty good strategic and tactical thinker, and they've outfoxed even the Eldar. The Tau are currently engaged in battle with one Ork Warlord because they underestimated the Orks, thinking them unthinking brutes. But now the Orks have turned things around and are forcing the Tau to fight on their terms. And they've stripped the weapons off the Tau and are using them, to boot! I wonder how long til we see Orks running around vaporizing Jem'Hadar with their own rifles?

Hmm, come to think of it, that may be the biggest weakness of the Orks when it comes to the Dominion. If the Dominion can get a Founder into place to assassinate that Warlord and take his place, then the Founders could potentially take over that entire Ork horde, then turn them against all their enemies. Scary thought.

I'd say a likely clash would be an Ork WAAAGH! against a Dominion held planet. The Dominion would cut the Ork fleet to shreds (they aren't very capable there) but probably wouldn't have the raw firepower to stop the Ork Spacehulk from getting to the planet.

Not so sure here, either. Ork vessels aren't very capable, no... but that's from a 40k perspective. They're cobbled together ships, yeah, held together by spit and duct tape, but these are ships that have to be capable of standing up to the ships of all the other 40k powers. Ships which are capable of one-shotting Starfleet ships left, right, and center (the Nova Cannon, alone, can take down multiple Starfleet ships in one shot due to its blast radius. The thing has a damage output in the petaton range and a blast radius the size of half the moon). If Ork ships are capable of enduring in space battles with the 40k powers, then they may very well be capable of dominating in space against the Dominion.

But once on the planet, the Orks wouldn't find the going nearly as easy as against other Trek races. The Dominion are nasty, can be just as brutish, just as fanatical, have better tech, and are far, far smarter than the Orks. Only huge advantages of numbers would ever allow them to prevail IMO.

It isn't just numbers on their side. Individual Orks are pretty hard, too. This is a race whose members get bigger and stronger with the more battles they fight. They're so resilient that a Mad Dok can literally put an Ork's head into a bucket and go wandering off looking for a body to attach it, too, and that Ork will probably live! The basic Ork is far stronger than the average human and even tougher. Then you got the Nobz, even tougher Orks, Weirdboyz, etc. No way the Dominion stands a chance in outright warfare with Orks. As fast as you can get Jem'Hadar, Orks are produced faster, and they come in greater numbers.

Yeah, I agree with that reasoning. Again, it depends on how you posit the interaction of the two universes. If it's a broad frontier, then the small Trek empires would get swamped. If it's a single point in space, depends on the timeline - the Feds cloaked self-replicating mines are pretty friggin' nasty. As of the last movie, the Vulcan Science institute could just create a black hole directly in the path of the wormhole.

The scenario I like to posit is that Q essentially "squishes" the two galaxies together. There's likely more then enough empty space in both Milky Way galaxies for them to shuffle together like a pack of cards without any negative consequences. Just slide the one galaxy into the other, and rotate it a few degrees so that Terra and Earth don't end up occupying the same space, or whatnot (although they wouldn't, anyway. Apparently during the Dark Age of Technology humanity up and moved the entire sol system to a different location in the galaxy).

As for the self-replicating mines, I don't think that'd work, even if we're talking wormhole. They're good against Dominion ships, but once again, these are ships that have to survive against terratons and petatons of damage. I doubt those mines would do much more than scratch the hull plating.

But it depends on the assumptions again. For example, the Trek galaxy has entire races of telepaths. All Imperial space travel is based on the telepathic beacons. It would be interesting to see what would happen if say all the Betazeds and Vulcans tried to disrupt those beacons.

Star Trek telepaths don't draw their powers on the warp, which is what 40k psyker powers are based off of, so they'd have no effect. Besides, Star Trek psychics are pygmy's in comparison to 40k psykers. The weakest 40k combat psyker available to the Imperial Guard is someone who can make himself and the men around him psychically invisible to others, who can emit arcs of lightning from his hands (like Darth Sidious), and who can tear the souls and rip to shreds the bodies of over a dozen men at once. The Alpha Plus Psyker is someone who can snap a battle titan in two (a war machine dozens if not hundreds of feet tall) with a wave of his hand, and send an entire enemy army into a bloodthirsty frenzy, turning on each other. To paraphrase a poster elsewhere, 40k psykers are what Betazeds, Vulcans, and Jedi want to be when they grow up.

 

[Rulius]

Oh boy I really started something with this thread,,,, hehe

 

[Demiurge]

Orks can be pretty tactical, too, depending on the experience of their warboss. As for equipment, Jem'Hadar have what, their rifles?

Depends on what sources you allow for. The series they have phased polaron rifles as their primary weapon, transporters that can beam them through shields and up to 3 light years away, and personal cloaks called shrouds which are a byproduct of ketracel white. They also are seen walking through force fields. They use holograms in ground combat.

They'd certainly completely command the battlefield with superior mobility, intelligence and communications. They could move at will, and set up ambushes with cloaked troops.

Polaron beams were considered on a par with disruptors and phasers. If so, they would likely be extremely damaging to Ork vehicles - and ignore Ork shields.

If you expand into the novels, their abilities increase significantly.

Orks are clearly not a tactical race. When they are, it's noteworthy - such as Warboss Gazghul Thrakka. The majority of Orks - and Ork armies - aren't noted for their tactical acumen. Hell, the game material shows that - they have the lowest tactics rating of any army.

So your assumption is the dumbest sentient WH40K race is smarter than one of the smarter Trek races. I don't see any reason to assume that.

An illogical assumption. The Federation was able to defeat those beams immediately after their first encounter with the Dominion, and never had to worry about them, again.

If by 'immediately' you mean 2 years later, then you are correct. If you mean immediately by immediately, you are completely incorrect. And no, I don't expect Orks to be able to adapt to it nearly as quickly as Federation engineers, who are renowned for their technical acumen so much that it's become a cliche in scifi circles.

And as mentioned before, Orks can be pretty tactical. They're stupid, yes, but their stupidity obviously doesn't hold back their tech level, as they were programmed with the knowledge to make their technology. Likewise, they were programmed to produce kunnin' warlords who're tactical geniuses. You just gotta read up on some of the things Orks have done to see that they're not half-bad at all.

Not half-bad isn't equal to 'extremely good.' The Dominion outfoxed the Romulans and Cardassians on a regular basis. I'm sorry, except for the occasional extremely rare ork super-genius like Gazghul Orks simply don't hold up in the tactics department.

They aren't complete idiots, they certainly are cunning. But more often then not their grand strategy is 'get 'em!' They surprise people when that isn't the case.

But now the Orks have turned things around and are forcing the Tau to fight on their terms. And they've stripped the weapons off the Tau and are using them, to boot! I wonder how long til we see Orks running around vaporizing Jem'Hadar with their own rifles?

Probably for a little while, until they explode in their faces.

Compare that to the Jem'Hadar, who in one episode detected cloaked subspace mines on a planetary surface and reprogrammed them to attack the Federation.

Hmm, come to think of it, that may be the biggest weakness of the Orks when it comes to the Dominion. If the Dominion can get a Founder into place to assassinate that Warlord and take his place, then the Founders could potentially take over that entire Ork horde, then turn them against all their enemies. Scary thought.

Actually, rather routine for the Dominon. That's exactly what they did with the Klingons and attempted to try with the Federation, leading to a short Federation civil war on earth.

It would be easy for the Founders to manipulate the Orks.

Not so sure here, either. Ork vessels aren't very capable, no... but that's from a 40k perspective. They're cobbled together ships, yeah, held together by spit and duct tape, but these are ships that have to be capable of standing up to the ships of all the other 40k powers.

Actually, they are specifically not supposed to be able to stand up to other races in space - per Andy Chambers design notes. They are a raiding force only, and can't stand up to the Imperials or Chaos.

Ships which are capable of one-shotting Starfleet ships left, right, and center

Based on what exactly? The fact they can kill planetary populations? So could the original Enterprise - that's canon.

The thing has a damage output in the petaton range and a blast radius the size of half the moon).

Source? My guess would be hyperbole in some novel.

If Ork ships are capable of enduring in space battles with the 40k powers, then they may very well be capable of dominating in space against the Dominion.

LOL. Hell, the space hulks they use to launch wars they can't even steer - they rely on the vagaries of the warp.

It isn't just numbers on their side. Individual Orks are pretty hard, too. This is a race whose members get bigger and stronger with the more battles they fight. They're so resilient that a Mad Dok can literally put an Ork's head into a bucket and go wandering off looking for a body to attach it, too, and that Ork will probably live! The basic Ork is far stronger than the average human and even tougher. Then you got the Nobz, even tougher Orks, Weirdboyz, etc. No way the Dominion stands a chance in outright warfare with Orks. As fast as you can get Jem'Hadar, Orks are produced faster, and they come in greater numbers.

Polaron beam wounds won't stop bleeding. And physical hardiness isn't much of an issue in such a battlefield - the weapons are capable of disenigrating opponents outright.

The scenario I like to posit is that Q essentially "squishes" the two galaxies together. There's likely more then enough empty space in both Milky Way galaxies for them to shuffle together like a pack of cards without any negative consequences.

You've heard of gravity, right? LOL. That would rip apart planets and star systems, create supernovas, and god knows what it would do to the warp and the different levels of subspace.

As for the self-replicating mines, I don't think that'd work, even if we're talking wormhole. They're good against Dominion ships, but once again, these are ships that have to survive against terratons and petatons of damage. I doubt those mines would do much more than scratch the hull plating.

Again, based on what? I've read a lot of the source material - it certainly doesn't give energy outputs like that. So it's a fanboy's calc. Those are always highly debatable depending on the assumptions made.

]Star Trek telepaths don't draw their powers on the warp, which is what 40k psyker powers are based off of, so they'd have no effect.

Uh huh. LOL. If the Warp is what is powering them, then I'd imagine the Star Trek races would get a pretty quick upgrade, wouldn't you? Any reason that they too couldn't access the warp once they saw how it was done? We are talking about BILLIONS of potential psykers then if they have access to the Warp.

Or we could assume both sides are as indicated, and that waving a magic wand doesn't make one side invulnerable to the other.

Besides, Star Trek psychics are pygmy's in comparison to 40k psykers. The weakest 40k combat psyker available to the Imperial Guard is someone who can make himself and the men around him psychically invisible to others, who can emit arcs of lightning from his hands (like Darth Sidious), and who can tear the souls and rip to shreds the bodies of over a dozen men at once. The Alpha Plus Psyker is someone who can snap a battle titan in two (a war machine dozens if not hundreds of feet tall) with a wave of his hand, and send an entire enemy army into a bloodthirsty frenzy, turning on each other. To paraphrase a poster elsewhere, 40k psykers are what Betazeds, Vulcans, and Jedi want to be when they grow up.

Alpha Plus Psykers also are automatically considered insane and hunted down by the Ordo Hereticus because they are inevitably going to face demonic possession And to this point there haven't been any that actually have been shown to do something like that - there's one that took control of several hundred minds in one Dan Abnett book, but that's considerably different then shattering battle titans. Most psykers are executed or fed to the Astronomicon.

That's one reason it occurred to me that the Federation could disrupt their navigation. The Astronomicon burns through pyskers, but it's fed by psykers too. Gather a couple of billion of them (which the Fed could do) and they might very well influence it - or snuff it out completely. Psykers are very rare in the Imperium, and fewer still are considered fit to serve it.

 

[The_Emperor]

So your assumption is the dumbest sentient WH40K race is smarter than one of the smarter Trek races. I don't see any reason to assume that.

Smarter? No. But smart enough to effectively fight them. And the longer the fighting goes on, the bigger, stronger, and more kunning they get.

If by 'immediately' you mean 2 years later, then you are correct. If you mean immediately by immediately, you are completely incorrect.

Not immediately as within minutes, but they were ready for that by the 3rd season finale.

And no, I don't expect Orks to be able to adapt to it nearly as quickly as Federation engineers, who are renowned for their technical acumen so much that it's become a cliche in scifi circles.

We're talking about a race who's technical accumen is engrained into their genetic code, giving them what they need to survive. Who have psychic abilities which literally allow things which should never work in a million years to work. Even if one assumes they can beat Ork force fields, that doesn't mean that enterprising Ork meks won't be able to work around it.

They aren't complete idiots, they certainly are cunning. But more often then not their grand strategy is 'get 'em!' They surprise people when that isn't the case.

If it works well enough, then why mess with a classic? And if it doesn't work, Orks have shown the ability to adapt to a situation.

Actually, rather routine for the Dominon. That's exactly what they did with the Klingons and attempted to try with the Federation, leading to a short Federation civil war on earth.

It would be easy for the Founders to manipulate the Orks.

Probably so, which would be the biggest advantage the Dominion would have against the Orks.

Source? My guess would be hyperbole in some novel.

Connor MacLeod over on the stardestroyer.net forums has done some pretty good calculations of weapon effects of Imperial weapons based off of effects occuring in the various novels. Here are his calculations on the Nova Cannon, and a quote from that.

"...putting Nova cannons well into the petaton range (~21 petatons roughly here.)"

And here are some more calculations, and a quote from that.

"...but it is worth noting that based on this, its safe to say that 40K battleships are probably in the "high teraton-low petaton" sustained firepower range".

LOL. Hell, the space hulks they use to launch wars they can't even steer - they rely on the vagaries of the warp.

I was thinking of their actual battleships and battlekroozers, here, not the space hulks/asteroids they fly around on. Though thinking about it, I don't recall reading them actually navigating aboard those ships. I dunno. Nevermind that, then.

You've heard of gravity, right? LOL. That would rip apart planets and star systems, create supernovas, and god knows what it would do to the warp and the different levels of subspace.

We're talking about Q. He'll make it work. :P Most importantly, though, this is for the benefit of the Federation, not the Imperium, as it would actually put Imperial space within striking distance of the Federation. The fastest Federation ships (like Voyager) can cross, what 3 light years per day? An average Imperial ship can cross 1,000 light years in 1-4 days. So clearly, the closer the two of them are to each other, the better for the Federation, as they could actually launch some kind of potential counter attack.

Again, based on what? I've read a lot of the source material - it certainly doesn't give energy outputs like that. So it's a fanboy's calc. Those are always highly debatable depending on the assumptions made.

Yep, but the effects appear to be pretty consistent based off of what's shown in novels. One torpedo availabe to the Imperium, for instance, which was shown in the supplement Space Hulk ages ago, is listed at being about 610 gigatons. And that was a nuclear torpedo, whereas standard Imperial torpedoes are plasma nowadays, so that torpedo is likely weaker. But if printed numbers are all you care for, ok. There's one printed number. 610 gigaton torpedoes, and ships designed to resist that kind of damage. Compare that to the 64 megaton photon torpedoes referenced in technical manuals. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, don't 1,000 megatons equal one gigaton? If that's the case, then that makes that one crappy, inferior nuclear torpedo that the Imperium uses 9,531 times more powerful than a standard Starfleet photon torpedo.

Uh huh. LOL. If the Warp is what is powering them, then I'd imagine the Star Trek races would get a pretty quick upgrade, wouldn't you?

Nope, because clearly they work in different ways. In a vs. scenario, everything works as it should.

Any reason that they too couldn't access the warp once they saw how it was done? We are talking about BILLIONS of potential psykers then if they have access to the Warp.

Whose abilities have absolutely no connection whatsoever to the warp. What you're arguing, now, isn't canon, but fanon. And completely unjustified as there's no evidence whatsoever that a standard Star Trek telepath would see any boost from the warp.

Or we could assume both sides are as indicated, and that waving a magic wand doesn't make one side invulnerable to the other.

The way I assume it is that the warp exists in the Star Trek universe, but clearly it has no effect on it. Thus allowing Imperial ships their warp travel. Likewise, Star Trek technology can function when mixed in with 40k.

And to this point there haven't been any that actually have been shown to do something like that - there's one that took control of several hundred minds in one Dan Abnett book, but that's considerably different then shattering battle titans. Most psykers are executed or fed to the Astronomicon.

The 40k rulebook states it outright, so despite not showing it, they clearly exist, as they're stated to exist. Just as the races shown in the 3rd edition rulebook and mentioned in various Codex's exist, even though they never appear in any novels (I don't think psy-gores ever appeared in a novel, but they do exist).

That's one reason it occurred to me that the Federation could disrupt their navigation. The Astronomicon burns through pyskers, but it's fed by psykers too. Gather a couple of billion of them (which the Fed could do) and they might very well influence it - or snuff it out completely. Psykers are very rare in the Imperium, and fewer still are considered fit to serve it.

Gather psykers how? Federation psychics don't work the same way as 40k psychics, and don't affect the warp (given that we've never seen them interact with the warp in any Star Trek show, that's a safe bet). They're certainly gonna have a hard time getting psykers from the Imperium, as the Inquisition does a good job of grabbing them up.

As for psykers being "very rare", they make regular appearances in Imperial Guard armies. Just about every Space Marine Chapter has Librarians (and the only ones who don't are the ones who're fanatically opposed to having psykers, not because they can't have them). The Inquisition makes use of psykers (and many Inquisitors are psykers), and every ship has at least one Astropath on board, if not more, with at least one Navigator.

Moreover, humanity is a burgeoning psychic race. I forget which book it was stated in, but it was talking about how something like 50% of the people on Necromunda were minor psychics, but their abilities were so miniscule that they were limited to things like being good at cards, guessing what's on someones mind, etc.

On top of which, millions of psykers are sacrificed every day to feed the Golden Throne, and the Astronomican is at any given time powered by 10,000 psykers. For something that's "rare", the Imperium sure seems to rely on a whole lot of them for the continued existence.

Are they rare in comparison to the normal human population? Sure. But we're talking about the normal human population in the Warhammer 40,000 universe. And in that universe, there are 32,380 hive worlds with populations ranging from 100-500 billion people. That's about 9,714,000,000,000,000 people on those worlds, alone, before taking into account the populations on the other 967,620 worlds in the Imperium, bare minimum (at least 51% of which are Civilized Worlds, with populations ranging from 15 million to 10 billion). Odds are the number of fuctioning psykers in the Imperium vastly outnumber the entire population of a single Federation world, if not more.

 

[Davros]

The Daleks could beat either or both groups.