Star Trek vs. Warhammer 40k

[Demiurge]

Ah, about those 'petatons' - which of course would wipe out entire continents with ease, being one million billion tons of TNT. That's 1000000000 times more powerful than the Hiroshima bomb and would certainly be an extinction level event.

From an actual Warhammer Novel, Execution Hour, by Gordon Rennie, P 183, describing a fairly power Imperial Carrier:

More than ten thousand souls, from Semper himself to the lowliest convict rating or servitor drone, lived within the armoured hull. More than ten thousand, a figure greater than the fighting complment of the largest Imperial Guard regiment, and many of that ten thousand-plus doubled as fighting troops, trained to take part in the bloody close-quarters boarding assaults that were a frequent part of space warfare. Indeed, the captain of an Imperial Navy warship commanded destructive capabilities undreamt of by any mere Imperial Guard commander. Its hull-side batteries could raze whole cities with sustained orbital bombardments. Its attack craft - it carried more than a hundred of them - could reach across star systems to strike at enemy targets, while its warp engines carried it across the vast interstellar gufls to wherever the Emperor's enemies might be. There was even space within its cargo holds and crew compartments to carry thousands of extra troops - as much as a full Imperial Guard infantry regiment, if need be- from one warzone to another, and with greater speed and safety than any slow and vulnerable troop transport vessel.

Pretty impressive vessel. But being able to destroy cities with sustained bombardment isn't exactly the equivalent of destroying a ecosphere with one shot.

Usual hyperbole - and I think you'll find there's quite a few folks that just outright break out laughing when Stardestroyer.net is brought out as a 'source.' LOL.

 

[The_Emperor]

I've only seen a few episodes of Dr. Who, but yeah, those Daleks looked pretty tough.

 

[The_Emperor]

Ah, about those 'petatons' - which of course would wipe out entire continents with ease, being one million billion tons of TNT. That's 1000000000 times more powerful than the Hiroshima bomb and would certainly be an extinction level event.

Destroy a continent, you say? Funny you should mention that...

Caves of Ice - Sandy Mitchell, Black Library, Page 141
"Nothing in our inventory would even come close to doing the job, but an astropathic message to the nearest naval unit would bring a task force here within weeks, and a flotilla of battleships ought to be enough to level the continent. A couple of barrages from their lance batteries would be enough to excise this cancer, however deeply it was buried.

Of course the planet would be rendered uninhabitable for generations, but no one in their right mind would be willing to set foot here once the necron presence was known in any case, so the question was moot."

If we assume that the 'couple of barrages' are also capable of levelling the continent, then this would imply something on the order of 167 teratons in a few shots from a battleship flotilla of (presumably) two to three ships. However, we may be talking about a concentrated lance strike on the necron tomb, followed by a general attack on the area with all weapons for a longer period of time.

Cain also talks about sterilising the planet, which may anything up to 1e11 or 1e12 megatons from a prolonged bombardment, as the planet would still be (such as it was) habitable in the long term.

From an actual Warhammer Novel, Execution Hour, by Gordon Rennie, P 183, describing a fairly power Imperial Carrier:
Its hull-side batteries could raze whole cities with sustained orbital bombardments.

Pretty impressive vessel. But being able to destroy cities with sustained bombardment isn't exactly the equivalent of destroying a ecosphere with one shot.

Depends on how you define the term "city". They could just as well be talking about something as big as a hive city, after all. Besides, the ship which you're referring to, if I remember right, is a Dictator Class Cruiser. All it has are standard weapon batteries and prow torpedoes, in addition to its bomber and fighter complement. What it doesn't have are any lance batteries, and it certainly doesn't have the monstrously powerful nova cannon.

Usual hyperbole - and I think you'll find there's quite a few folks that just outright break out laughing when Stardestroyer.net is brought out as a 'source.' LOL.

Yep. And I find those same people usually do so because they don't have a leg to stand on, argument wise, so they dismiss the argument rather than confronting them or, *gasp*, admitting they're wrong.

 

[Spiderpope]

Uh huh. LOL. If the Warp is what is powering them, then I'd imagine the Star Trek races would get a pretty quick upgrade, wouldn't you? Any reason that they too couldn't access the warp once they saw how it was done? We are talking about BILLIONS of potential psykers then if they have access to the Warp.

Correction, Billions of potential untrained Psykers. It would be like an all you could eat buffet for the Chaos Gods if the Trek telepathic races suddenly became able to access the warp. Slaanesh would have a field day with the Betazoids.
Even if it left them at a significant disadvantage, the Trek universe would be better off not having its telepaths upgraded to linking to The Warp.

 

[Ayelbourne]

Earth alliance wouldn't last long against the 40k ... at all

How powerful are these guys?

Like everything else in WH 40k, weaponry in general is "over the top".

And since the Imperial Guard's and Space Marines' main function is to wage war, while that of Starfleet isn't...

-> Imperium ftw...easily

 

[Demiurge]

Ah, about those 'petatons' - which of course would wipe out entire continents with ease, being one million billion tons of TNT. That's 1000000000 times more powerful than the Hiroshima bomb and would certainly be an extinction level event.

Destroy a continent, you say? Funny you should mention that...

If we assume that the 'couple of barrages' are also capable of levelling the continent, then this would imply something on the order of 167 teratons in a few shots from a battleship flotilla of (presumably) two to three ships. However, we may be talking about a concentrated lance strike on the necron tomb, followed by a general attack on the area with all weapons for a longer period of time.

Cain also talks about sterilising the planet, which may anything up to 1e11 or 1e12 megatons from a prolonged bombardment, as the planet would still be (such as it was) habitable in the long term.

Pretty impressive vessel. But being able to destroy cities with sustained bombardment isn't exactly the equivalent of destroying a ecosphere with one shot.

Depends on how you define the term "city". They could just as well be talking about something as big as a hive city, after all. Besides, the ship which you're referring to, if I remember right, is a Dictator Class Cruiser. All it has are standard weapon batteries and prow torpedoes, in addition to its bomber and fighter complement. What it doesn't have are any lance batteries, and it certainly doesn't have the monstrously powerful nova cannon.

Yep - hyperbole from a novel. Flotilla of battleships - I'd say that's more than one, wouldn't you? Two or three would definitely be a lower order here. Of course, the term is used incorrectly - a flotilla is supposed to be smaller ships, and we know battleships are the biggest thing they have. It could easily be a dozen or more of that class of vessel.

It also says a 'few barrages', not a few shots. You posited the same effect with a single vessel firing a single shot, then upped it an order of magnitude from terratons to petatons. A few 'barrages' could be hours worth of fire.

So we have an indeterminate number of their biggest vessel being able to destroy a continent of indeterminate size in an indeterminate amount of time. From that your 'source' (LOL) gets a specific amount of energy - which then you escalate dramatically.

In the meanwhile, you posit that ships that can do the same thing would be swatted out of the sky like bugs. A 'flotilla' of Romulan Warbirds and Cardassian Galdors bombarded the supposed Jem'hadar homeworld and destroyed 30% of the worlds crust in 'the opening barrage.'

Yep. And I find those same people usually do so because they don't have a leg to stand on, argument wise, so they dismiss the argument rather than confronting them or, *gasp*, admitting they're wrong.

And I find that anyone who uses that site is really impressed by how 'kewl' it is, and ignores the fact that it was founded specifically to belittle other scifi franchises by a bunch of rabid fanboys.

So I guess your mileage varies. Clearly you are wrong here. Are you going to admit it? Of course not.

Oh, BTW, scaling on the Lance batteries vs the weapons batteries that are capable of leveling cities? The weapons batteries do more damage in the game.

But don't let the source material confuse you. You are right, you know it - it's all so kewl! LOL.

Look forward to seeing your post show up on Stardestroyer.net asking for help debating, oh, what is it they call Trek fans? Oh, right - 'the federation fanatics.'

BTW, I really enjoy the WH40K universe and I've read a lot of the books.

 

[The_Emperor]

Yep - hyperbole. Flotilla of battleships - I'd say that's more than one, wouldn't you? Two or three would definitely be a lower order here. Of course, the term is used incorrectly - a flotilla is supposed to be smaller ships, and we know battleships are the biggest thing they have. It could easily be a dozen or more of that class of vessel.

Not hyperbole at all. "Flotilla" is specifically called out in the BFG rulebooks as being synonymous with the term "squadron". And capital ship squadrons are made up of 2-3 ships. If you don't believe me, go HERE, scroll to page six, and read the second paragraph. But if you'd rather save time, let me just quote it.

"Squadrons may have all sorts of different names, such as formations, flotillas, packs, groups, or forces, but they all work in the same way."

Then go HERE, go to page three, and read the section entitled "Forming Up The Fleet". Here's what it says:

"Grand cruisers and battleships may be formed into squadrons of two to three ships..."

So by stating that there're three ships, Connor's being conservative in his estimations. So yeah, nothing's getting escalated, as you later claim.

It also says a 'few barrages', not a few shots. You posited the same effect with a single vessel firing a single shot, then upped it an order of magnitude from terratons to petatons. A few 'barrages[ could be hours worth of fire.

A few barrages is a few shots. And I didn't up anything. You don't seem to get the difference between the lance weapon and the nova cannon. The nova cannon is the weapon in the petaton range. The lance is weaker, even if it's still grotesquely powerful.

So we have an indeterminate number of their biggest vessel

Not indeterminate. It's two to three. Connor estimated three, but given that those ships are rarer, two is a better bet. So it could just as easily take TWO ships to destroy a continent in just a couple of barrages. Or one with a little more then "a couple" barrages. One ship to utterly level a continent, boring several kilometers into the ground, and leaving that planet uninhabitable for generations to come. And that's using standard ships weaponry, as opposed to Exterminatus weapons.

being able to destroy a continent of indeterminate size in an indeterminate amount of time.

They say it'll take "a couple of barrages". Isn't "a couple" about three or four? And seeing as how it doesn't take long for a lance to fire and then fire again, we're not talking very long. Or are you claiming that it'll take a couple hours before a lance can fire again?

From that your 'source' (LOL) gets a specific amount of energy - which then you escalate dramatically.

Uh huh. You're the one who told me that "'petatons' ...would wipe out entire continents with ease". I present you with a quote from an official source in which that very situation happens, and you call BS on the amount of power when you yourself tell me that's the amount of force it'd take to destroy a continent? Wow.

In the meanwhile, you posit that ships that can do the same thing would be swatted out of the sky like bugs. A 'flotilla' of Romulan Warbirds and Cardassian Galdors bombarded the supposed Jem'hadar homeworld and destroyed 30% of the worlds crust in 'the opening barrage.'

Oh, you mean the 20 ships which didn't even obliterate the atmosphere, the way 3 Imperial battleships would?

Oh, BTW, scaling on the Lance batteries vs the weapons batteries that are capable of leveling cities? The weapons batteries do more damage in the game.

Read the rules. Lances work far differently than standard weapon batteries ingame. They're specifically called out as "special weapons" in the game. They have a strength value, whereas weapon batteries have a firepower value. In the game, the chances of a weapons battery to hit are affected by how the enemy ship is maneuvering (easier to hit if it's moving forward or away than abeam), as well as range. Your chances are further reduced by the type of ship you're firing at. The bigger the ship, the worse your chances.

All of that goes towards modifying the number of dice you roll. Once you determine how many dice you roll, you then roll to see if you can beat the enemy ships armor, and that's usually a roll of 5 or 6 on a six sided-die. So with enough negative modifiers, even a ship with a whopping 12 Firepower on their weapons batteries can end up rolling a piddling amount of dice on its attack. And given that that'll likely be on a capital ship, they'll have to roll 6's to damage (I haven't looked at every ship entry, but the norm is an armor value of 5+ or 6+ for the more powerful ships).

Lances, on the other hand, are so powerful that they don't go through all that trouble. They always roll the same amount of dice and always damage on a 4+. Is the number under Firepower/Strength column lower than that under the Weapon Batteries? Yes it is. Why? Because if they were equal to the value of the weapon batteries, the lances would rape everything in sight.

Let me note, also, than in the background, lances are stated as being powerful enough to cut an escort ship in two with one blast. HERE is the absolute smallest and weakest escort ship available to the Imperium of Man, to scale with the Enterprise-E. Now, if a lance can cut a ship that many times larger than the Enterprise in two, what do you think it'll do to the Enterprise, itself?

Clearly you are wrong here. Are you going to admit it? Of course not.

Clearly? Did you present any actual evidence whatsoever? No you haven't. Your entire post amounted to "Nuh uh!"

I, however, have presented evidence. I've shown a quote from a book where the characters are talking about destroying a continent (in order to destroy a Necron base several kilometers below the surface), after you yourself stated it'd take petatons of power to destroy a continent! I've shown you calculations by someone who demonstrates how much power that takes (and if you think they're wrong, then feel free to disprove them). I've proven indisputably that the number of ships can't possibly be in excess of three (and given the lesser number of battleships, two is probably a better number), given that terms like "flotilla" and "wolf pack" are synonymous with "squadron" in Battlefleet Gothic. And I've posted a hard number from an actual sourcebook putting a nuclear torpedo at 610 gigatons, when standard Imperial torpedoes are plasma, which is in stark contrast to Federation torpedoes being, what, 50 megatons? 500 megatons at most? That's a far sight better than the "diddly" and "squat" which you've based your arguments on.

But don't let the source material confuse you. You are right, you know it - it's all so kewl! LOL.

Ah, the refuge of a man who knows he doesn't have a leg to stand on. Throw in some insults, the word "kewl", and lots of "LOL's" to cover up the complete lack of an actual counterargument.

 

[Demiurge]

Not hyperbole at all. "Flotilla" is specifically called out in the BFG rulebooks as being synonymous with the term "squadron". And capital ship squadrons are made up of 2-3 ships. If you don't believe me, go HERE, scroll to page six, and read the second paragraph. But if you'd rather save time, let me just quote it.

"Squadrons may have all sorts of different name, such as formations, flotillas, packs, groups, or forces, but they all work in the same way."

Then go HERE, go to page three, and read the section entitled "Forming Up The Fleet". Here's what it says:

"Grand cruisers and battleships may be formed into squadrons of two to three ships..."

So by stating that there're three ships, Connor's being conservative in his estimations. So yeah, nothing's getting escalated, as you later claim.

Oh, so we are taking the rule book as cannon then? GREAT!

A few barrages is a few shots. And I didn't up anything. You don't seem to get the difference between the lance weapon and the nova cannon. The nova cannon is the weapon in the petaton range. The lance is weaker, even if it's still grotesquely powerful.

Max damage for weapons -

A Nova cannon with a perfect hit does 1d6. Most times it does 1 hit, period.

A Lance does 1 hit.

A Weapons battery, like the side batteries on the Dictator, can do 1 hit per battery. The ship that I posted before, a Dictator class Cruiser, has 6 batteries per side - it's firepower output is equivalent to a Nova Cannon.

That's certainly in the megaton range, could even be in the kiloton range, and there's no reason to assume we are talking super cities because most cities in the Imperium AREN'T hives.

The rulebook shows completely different levels of firepower than you are assigning. Indeed, the side batteries of a Imperial or Chaos Battleship are MORE powerful than the Nova cannon. There's no ship that has more than 6 Lances, either.

Oh, and a barrage in military terms is 'continuous series of shots'. A barrage could last for hours depending on the ammo capacity of the weapon.

More as I have time.

 

[Treknut]

The Borg would win.

The Adeptus Mechanicus would turn on the Imperium to join up with the Machine God aka Borg Queen. There goes most of the tech that makes the Space Marines able to operate.

 

[SilentP]

The Borg would win.

The Adeptus Mechanicus would turn on the Imperium to join up with the Machine God aka Borg Queen. There goes most of the tech that makes the Space Marines able to operate.

I'd say not, all it would take is for the Borg to try and assimilate one psyker and BAM! Chaos has a lovely large network of interconnected beings that crave order, how not do everything to try and infect/corrupt that?

 

[The_Emperor]

Oh, so we are taking the rule book as cannon then? GREAT!

Yes we are. And in that rulebook, a lance weapon is capable of blasting an escort (at least four times the size of a Sovereign Class Starship) in two with one shot. In those rules, a nova cannon is a huge weapon, so powerful that it can only be fired forward. Why? Because the recoil is so massive that it can requires the ships engines to compensate for that. Yes, the recoil is so powerful that it'd knock even ships that big backwards if they didn't have their engines going. And according to the book, it fires a projectile nearly the speed of light with a blast radius half the size of the moon and unleashing a force more potent than a dozen plasma bombs (plasma bombs which are superior to the aformentioned 610 gigaton nuclear torpedo).

Max damage for weapons -

A Nova cannon with a perfect hit does 1d6. Most times it does 1 hit, period.

I don't think you quite understand how the game works. My understanding isn't perfect, either, as I've never played it, but at least I'm making an effort to read the rules and understand what's going on, which you can't seem to be bothered to do. Go HERE to page 22, where it talks about Nova Cannons.

With a perfect shot it does inflict 1d6 hits, while it inflicts 1 hit on everyone within the blast radius. But that's automatic damage. Read my above post. Even the most powerful weapons batteries can see their fire reduced to piddling amounts, and see no results come from their fire. A Nova Cannon, however, always inflicts damage, and if it's a direct hit, the target counts as being struck multiple times! And you're trying to claim that it's weak? That one gun which can outdo a dozen or so guns in its ability to damage numerous ships, and can potentially outdo them in its ability to damage a single ship with nothing more than indirect fire, is weak?

A Lance does 1 hit.

It varies, but those shots, as I've already explained, as far more powerful than the shots of a weapons battery. Once again, read the explanation above.

A Weapons battery, like the side batteries on the Dictator, can do 1 hit per battery. The ship that I posted before, a Dictator class Cruiser, has 6 batteries per side - it's firepower output is equivalent to a Nova Cannon.

*sigh* Read the rules. That's what you get in the best of circumstances. You don't get all those dice all the time. The number of dice you get is reduced by numerous factors, like distance, the way the enemy ship is moving, and the enemy ships size. Once you determine how many dice you DO get, YOU STILL NEED TO ROLL TO HIT! And the rolls you need are 5's or 6's. At best a 4, and only on an escort. So even if a Battleship with a Firepower of 12 gets to keep all of its dice when attacking another battleship, it'll still do, on average, two hits.

That's in contrast to the Nova Cannon which always damages. Every. Single. Time. Not only does it always inflict damage, but it inflicts damage to multiple ships at once. And the lance cannon always inflicts damage at least half the time. Do you honestly not see the difference between firing a dozen guns or more to potentially get one or two solid hits on an enemy ship, in comparison to one gun which always gets a solid hit on a ship, and the ship next to it, and the ship next to it, and which, if it scores a direct hit, can get up to the equivalent of six solid shots? Do you really not see the vastly superior firepower that the nova cannon has at its disposal?

There's a reason that all of those guns are massed together and fired together, and listed as one weapon in the game. That's because, individually, those weapons aren't much. It's firing together that they start getting better results. You have to shoot a dozen of them at once at the same target if you want to have a hope of denting the massive, adamantium hulled ships in the 40k universe. That you can accomplish the same job with a single lance or nova cannon is testament to how powerful those weapons are.

That's certainly in the megaton range, could even be in the kiloton range, and there's no reason to assume we are talking super cities because most cities in the Imperium AREN'T hives.

Megatons, kilotons? Based on what? Based on your complete misunderstanding of the rules? Based on your inability to comprehend that just because "Weapon Batteries" have a bigger number under the Firepower/Strength column, they're not more powerful than lance weapons and nova cannons, because the way those three weapons interact with the rules are completely different?

Nevermind it's such a disingenuous argument. You state that it'd take firepower in the petatons to destroy a continent. I post a quote from a novel in which a character states that that can be accomplished with the lance weapons of 2-3 battleships. And you're going to seriously argue that, after telling us all that that feat would require petatons of power, that those selfsame lance weapons are only in the kiloton to megaton range? Seriously?

The rulebook shows completely different levels of firepower than you are assigning. Indeed, the side batteries of a Imperial or Chaos Battleship are MORE powerful than the Nova cannon.

No, they show exactly what I say they show.

There's no ship that has more than 6 Lances, either.

That, alone, should tell you that you've got things completely backwards. So tell me this. If lance weapons are the weaker weapons, then why is it they're outnumbered by at least four-to-one by the more powerful weapons? Shouldn't we expect the more powerful weapons on a ship to be the smaller quantity of weapons?

Nevermind that the novel quote I posted explicitly stated that they needed to call in those battleships for lance bombardment. Why call for ships with lances if they were weaker than weapon batteries? Why not use their own weapon batteries, seeing as how their number on the Firepower/Strength chart is greater than the value for any lance, anywhere in the fleet?

They didn't because there's more to those weapons then that single number. The rules and the background both make it quite clear that the lances are the far more powerful weapon, not the weaker ones.

Oh, and a barrage in military terms is 'continuous series of shots'. A barrage could last for hours depending on the ammo capacity of the weapon.

More as I have time.

Please, stop wasting both your time and ours, as you clearly don't have the barest shred of a clue of what you're talking about. I don't quite know what to make of this latest argument. It either demonstrates your complete and utter ignorance of what you're talking about, or it demonstrates that you're a bald-faced liar, purposefully misinterpreting the data for your purposes. I'm gonna assume the former, though, because being ignorant of a sci-fi universe or a game system isn't a big deal, and I don't enjoy accusing people of being liars without a bit more evidence (and prefer to think that someone wouldn't lie about something so stupid as this).

 

[Demiurge]

Sorry, I'm at work, so I dont' have the time to thoroughly destroy your arguments, but clearly you don't know your source material.

I HAVE played the game. Matter of fact, I have designed more than a few games myself. What I'm talking about is maximum firepower - the most damage a single nova cannon can do in a singe hit to a single ship is 6 'structural hits' in BFG terms. The most damage a Avenger class Grand Cruiser can do with its side mounted batteries is 16.

We aren't talking about accuracy or penetration, which is what you were going into in your gunnery factor argument. Your original hypothesis is firepower - how much pure damage it can do. There's a disconnect there in the source material.

Oh, nice edit to take out your argument that lance weapons are so powerful that they can only be fired forward because of the special bracing they require.

The very first ship in the BFG rulebook has port and starboard mounted Lances. Wish I had gotten to that before you hit the edit button. LOL.

But please, feel free to continue to italicize, put into BOLD and CAPITALIZE your arguments. That really increasing their logical efficacy.

 

[The_Emperor]

Oh, nice edit to take out your argument that lance weapons are so powerful that they can only be fired forward because of the special bracing they require.

The very first ship in the BFG rulebook has port and starboard mounted Lances. Wish I had gotten to that before you hit the edit button. LOL.

Wow, ok, I guess you are a liar, then. I never stated that about lance weapons. I did, however, state that about the nova cannon. And as you can see in my above post, it still says just that. So yeah. Shove off, clown.

 

[Spiderpope]

Oh, nice edit to take out your argument that lance weapons are so powerful that they can only be fired forward because of the special bracing they require.

The very first ship in the BFG rulebook has port and starboard mounted Lances. Wish I had gotten to that before you hit the edit button. LOL.

Wow, ok, I guess you are a liar, then. I never stated that about lance weapons. I did, however, state that about the nova cannon. And as you can see in my above post, it still says just that. So yeah. Shove off, clown.

Dont get so worked up about it Emperor, Demiurge, this is a hypothetical debate about whether Trek would get its backside kicked by the Imperium, not a indepth review of Battlefleet Gothic rules mechanics . Really isnt worth getting a warning from a mod over.

 

[The_Emperor]

Dont get so worked up about it Emperor, Demiurge, this is a hypothetical debate about whether Trek would get its backside kicked by the Imperium, not a indepth review of Battlefleet Gothic rules mechanics . Really isnt worth getting a warning from a mod over.

I got a problem with blatant falsehoods, and what he claimed right there is one (Nevermind that it's a stupid lie. I do edit my posts, on occasion, to fix grammatical mistakes and such. Only once in this conversation did I alter a sentence to read differently, the one about lances raping everything. But claiming I edited a post when I didn't? And implying that I was trying to "cover up" something? ).

Incidentally, what I said here...

And in that rulebook, a lance weapon is capable of blasting an escort (at least four times the size of a Sovereign Class Starship) in two with one shot.

...anyone can see for themselves on this very link on page 20. Here's a screenshot of the passage in question.

And what I said here...

In those rules, a nova cannon is a huge weapon, so powerful that it can only be fired forward. Why? Because the recoil is so massive that it can requires the ships engines to compensate for that. Yes, the recoil is so powerful that it'd knock even ships that big backwards if they didn't have their engines going.

...can be found on this link, on page 22. Here's a screenshot of that.

 

[Demiurge]

Oh, nice edit to take out your argument that lance weapons are so powerful that they can only be fired forward because of the special bracing they require.

The very first ship in the BFG rulebook has port and starboard mounted Lances. Wish I had gotten to that before you hit the edit button. LOL.

Wow, ok, I guess you are a liar, then. I never stated that about lance weapons. I did, however, state that about the nova cannon. And as you can see in my above post, it still says just that. So yeah. Shove off, clown.

LOL. OK, I stand corrected, I must have misread the initial post.

However, it doesn't change any of the firepower figures I've posted from the original source material.

As far as 'barrages' go, they often lasted for hours in WWI and WWII. The initial barrage at the battle of Verdun lasted 10 hours. It was common to start offensives in WWII with a barrage that would last an hour. No artilleryman would say a 'barrage' is a single shot. It's incorrect terminology.

That significantly decreases the max firepower of your lances I would say - considering we could be talking about hundreds or thousands of shots instead of three or four.

I'd definitely say a balanced perspective on BFG ships is they are superior warships to the equivalent Trek ships.

But I wouldn't say they are thousands of times more powerful. Which is what your unsubstantiated claims are.

 

[Demiurge]

Oh, dear lord - 'normally mounted in the prow', which is the specific quote, is different than 'HAS to be mounted in the prow'.

Normally means specifically that that isn't always the case.

 

[The_Emperor]

However, it doesn't change any of the firepower figures I've posted from the original source material.

Your interpretation of them is still very much incorrect.

As far as 'barrages' go, they often lasted for hours in WWI and WWII. The initial barrage at the battle of Verdun lasted 10 hours. It was common to start offensives in WWII with a barrage that would last an hour. No artilleryman would say a 'barrage' is a single shot. It's incorrect terminology.

"Flotilla" isn't the correct terminology for three battleships, either, and yet that's the case in 40k. Given that the quote they state that it'd only be "a couple of barrages", it more then likely wouldn't take hours. That implies a quick affair. A barrage, here, can be as simple as one shot from each ship. Ship A, Ship B, and Ship C fire once. That's one barrage. Ship A, Ship B, and Ship C fire once more. That's two barrages. Ship A, Ship B, and Ship C fire once again. That's a couple of barrages. Done.

That significantly decreases the max firepower of your lances I would say - considering we could be talking about hundreds or thousands of shots instead of three or four.

Hundreds of thousands? The quote, again, is "a couple of barrages". Doesn't sound like they're talking about hundreds of thousands of shots.

I'd definitely say a balanced perspective on BFG ships is they are superior warships to the equivalent Trek ships.

But I wouldn't say they are thousands of times more powerful. Which is what your unsubstantiated claims are.

I've presented evidence, which means my arguments aren't unsubstantiated. Unsubstantiated, however, is presenting nothing, which is all you've done. Your entire arguments have been "that's not true, because I say so". Do you actually have anything to contradict anything I've said, or do you feel saying "just because" is enough to contradict what I've said?

- The Imperium has guns that're at least half as big as a Starfleet ship, if not bigger.
- The Imperium has torpedoes that're 1/10th to 1/7th the length of the Sovereign class.
- The Imperium has a weapon which can cut a ship well over four times the mass of the Sovereign Class in half with one shot.
- The Imperium has demonstrated the ability to destroy a continent and leave a planet uninhabitable with three ships.
- The Imperium has a weapon with a blast radius half the size of a moon, with a massive recoil which pushes their enormous ships back, fired at almost light speed.

And you're going to argue that that stuff is in the megatons to kilotons range?

 

[The_Emperor]

Oh, dear lord - 'normally mounted in the prow', which is the specific quote, is different than 'HAS to be mounted in the prow'.

Normally means specifically that that isn't always the case.

Now you're just splitting hairs. I've yet to see a ship which hasn't had a nova cannon mounted on the prow. And even if there weren't, that doesn't change the fact that the gun does have enough recoil to push the ship backwards. Do you see anything in that quote that states otherwise? It states that it has recoil and it needs to be compensated for, and the ships engines are used for that.

So yeah, while I suppose they could build a port or starboard facing nova cannon, it'd get knocked around by the recoil. And even if they did, that doesn't change my argument a whit, nor does it affect the firepower of the nova cannon in the slightest. The nova cannon is still as devastating as it is, whether it faces forward, port, or starboard is completely immaterial to that. You're simply arguing minutae, here.

 

[Admiral2]

This argument over details is so unecessary. There are three simple reasons why The Imperium will beat the Federation:

1. The Federation is run by pacifists and defended by scientists.

2. The Imperium is run by imperialists and expanded by elite soldiers.

3. There are assloads more soldiers and spacers and ships in the Imperium military than there are in Starfleet, and as the Federation learned with the Jem'hadar, your technological superiority means jack if your enemy never stops coming.

That's all.