Major League Baseball 2009

[Tim]

During the Yanks/ChiSox game, MLB Network was running a quote from Papi on the screen crawl...he said something like "I was surprised to learn I tested positive for anything". For some reason that sounded really funny. (This is not an insult, BTW.)

The way the names have been leaked in little dribs and drabs seems designed for maximum surprise. They should just release the whole damned list, tell us who was using the hardcore stuff (anabolic steroids) and who wasn't, and be done with it.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I heard someone make the argument that by leaking the names like this, each person is punished individually. If the list were released all at once, they could hide behind everyone else's name.

 

[btflash]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4366335 im posting this link because i first broke this story here way back in feb of this year as it was being widely reported here in the new york area that ortiz had tested positive for steroids in 2003. at that time i was attacked relentlessly by a couple of red sox fans and im just curious to see if they are going to "man up" and publically apologise. somehow i doubt it.but as a diehard yankee fan i must admit i am gloating today!

 

[Scout101]

^ you mean your homerific attempts at a flame war, where you threw around innuendo and attacked everyone in sight? And at the time, the ESPN story you linked to said that Ortiz had worked out (recently) at a gym run by a guy with ties to the ARod situation. YOU tried to link it to the 2003 list by innuendo (and PROOF in the form of Yankees fans on WFAN wishing it were true), but the article you linked to said nothing of the sort.

You then attempted to troll or flame anyone that disagreed with you, or what you were saying that article said, until everyone stopped talking to you.

Before you attempt to re-write history, here's the original thread:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=72187&highlight=ortiz&page=14

Not sure how you're gloating, though, as the Yankees are the frigging face of the steroid era. At best, you could feel vindicated that you guys weren't the only ones, but to gloat is to ignore that you're the worst offender. I'd also like to see WHAT Ortiz tested positive for before making too many judgements. PEDs is a loose term, and could be anything from hardcore steroids to an ingredient taken as part of the wrong protein shake. Not going to throw around wild guesses until we know more.

Worst case, this was a 2003 test (the year the Sox missed the world series because of a juiced Giambi in Game 7), so not a biggie. Why don't we put an asterick next to your WS appearance that year, to make you happy? I don't see any mention of Ortiz taking anything in 2004 and 2007 right now, so we'll leave those alone

edit: HERE is the link you used to justify your wild guesses at the time, and as you can see, doesn't quite say what you wanted it to:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3925084

 

[Scout101]

I thought what Canseco had to say recently was interesting, about how everyone would be shocked to know that at least one Hall of Famer had definitely used steroids.

Given that this came right after the induction ceremony, he almost definitely meant Ricky Henderson, right? Played with Canseco, trying to hold on as he reached 40, etc. Ricky's gotta be thrilled he got in before the buzzer, so to speak...

 

[SmoothieX]

Can't say I'm surprised by any of these names at this point. Manny got busted this year so it probably wasn't the first time he used anything. And Ortiz fit the classic 'steroid era user' profile. Was a decent player in Minnesota, exploded onto the scene with several profilic years in Boston, then has been breaking down over the past couple years with injuries and declining stats during the 'cleaner' era of testing.

It bothers me when people get outraged and say their stats should be forfeited, they should give up that MVP award, etc...It was a bunch of juiced up hitters facing a bunch of juiced up pitchers and being fielded by a bunch of juiced up outfielders. You can't separate whats legit from whats dirty at this point.

I heard an interesting take on this on The First Word this morning. They were saying that even if the testing program were to clean it all up, the list will continue to leak, the busted players will continue to play for 5, 7, 10 years or whatever. Then 5 years after that they will come up on the HOF ballot, whenever someone approaches their records it will be mentioned, etc. It's not going away soon.

 

[Scout101]

Another interesting admission/take on things:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4368436

Bronson Arroyo saying he wouldn't be shocked to know he's on the list. Says he took Andro for a few years, and quit after the testing started, when he heard it was being laced with steroids, and likely to result in punishment going forward.

Not sure how smart an admission it is, but refreshing nonetheless, and could explain things for a few guys, at least.

 

[SmoothieX]

That is refreshing to hear. It's better than the standard see through excuses you get when guys get busted.

It was injected into me by a disgruntled former trainer...I got it over the counter in the Dominican...it was given to me by a doctor, etc...

 

[Scout101]

Right, just an honest "people took all kinds of shit, from energy boosters to hard core steroids, and everything in between." After the testing started, that went down dramatically. And he says there that he wasn't doing steroids, but Andro, and then stopped doing that when he found out he could still show up as positive. Owns up to the culture at the time, doesn't make excuses, all good.

Like I've been saying, I want to hear more about WHAT Ortiz tested positive for before I come down too hard one way or the other. Reaction if he was doing anabolic steroids would be different than if he was doing something lesser.

 

[PlixTixiplik]

Right, just an honest "people took all kinds of shit, from energy boosters to hard core steroids, and everything in between." After the testing started, that went down dramatically.

I wouldn't be quick to assume that this is the case (not referring to any player in specific). After all, in other sports where testing is much more frequent and intensive - and punishments are much more severe - athletes still take performance enhancing drugs. In cycling, some athletes still test positive for EPO despite the fact that it is tested for, each rider has a "biological passport" containing all of their past tests/blood profiles/etc, they face a two year ban for a positive test, and samples are kept for 8 years for future tests. One of the team managers (of one of the biggest teams) was even arrested in a large police investigation (Operacion Puerto) and teams are excluded from the biggest races on suspicion of doping. In baseball (or other pro sports), where the risk is low due to minimal testing and lax penalties and the reward is very high due to multimillion dollar contracts, the incentive to cheat will be extremely high.

 

[Scout101]

Well, if you believe Canseco that 80-90% were using in the late 90s/early 2000s, then even if it was cut down to 10% using, that's pretty dramatic.

Didn't say it went away entirely, as people still get caught, just that it was cut way back because they were testing for it, so people quit or went to HGH or whatever.

The other big thing is that testing at the minor league levels has been more intensive and strict for a while, so while you've got people that still want to get ahead, or hold onto a fleeting career, most of the young guys coming up have been tested so often at every level that they'd be pretty well retarded to try and use now. The Pedroias or Longorias of the world just can't get away with it...

 

[Kira's Mom]

I have only one thing to say about the Nationals' Nick Johnson being traded to the Marlins:

I hope they got something good in return.

 

[Commander Vaughn]

The Tigers play a seriously stripped down Cleveland club tonight. After trading away almost half of their starters, Cleveland isn't left with a whole lot. Hopefully that means Detroit can get a win.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If I hear one more stupid sonofabitch complain about how the '04 and '07 Series are "tainted", I am gonna smash something. It's OVER. Who the fuck cares? It's not as if Manny or Ortiz won the games all by themselves. It was the whole team working together. So even if one or two may have taken some stuff, it doesn't mean shit.

 

[RevDMV]

the whole team was on the stuff?

Who would have guessed...

 

[Tim]

My response to this steroid stuff: *yawn*. Let's see what Ortiz took and proceed from there. Ortiz did confirm the positive test and promised to share the results with the public. I'll hold him to that, though I expect he'll man up as he seems a fairly straight-up guy. And I agree with Mr. Laser Beam that a positive test for some vague substance in 2003 has no bearing on '04 and '07 no matter how much the die-hard Yanks fans may want it to.

And in actual baseball news, the Sox squeak by the Orioles (thanks to Youk and Papi HRs) and the Yanks get smashed by the ChiSox. Double steal of second and home? Man, the Yanks pitchers love having stuff sneak in under their noses.

 

[Aragorn]

We all know the teams with the most steroid users are the Royals, Pirates and Nationals. Otherwise they wouldn't be nearly as good as they are now.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And I agree with Mr. Laser Beam that a positive test for some vague substance in 2003 has no bearing on '04 and '07 no matter how much the die-hard Yanks fans may want it to.

And I say that *as* a die-hard Yankee fan. I'd say that even if we had been in either of those series. Whatever any of the players may have taken, it's already done. Gone. Finis. You can't change the past. So what's the point?

 

[1001001]

I think the Twins may need to work on their bullpen a little bit...

 

[Starbreaker]

So the Braves have Adam LaRoche and Mike Gonzalez now. It's a win win!... Biggest WTF move for the Braves this year.