I wonder how homosexuals feel about...

[ThankQ]

I never said it evolved out of thin air.

It's plain stupid to say that anyone who says 'that's gay' is homophobic.

You mean "everyone".

It would be plain stupid to say that "no one" who says "that's gay" is homophobic, as you suggested by saying "anyone".

I'm sure some users of "that's gay" are homophobic, and some are not.

 

[Crash]

I never said it evolved out of thin air.

It's plain stupid to say that anyone who says 'that's gay' is homophobic.

No has said that. What is being said is that it is a very rude term to use given that the term identifies as homosexual in the common language and that using it in a negative way could be construed as offensive or upsetting to others.

 

[Kirk's_Tights]

I never said it evolved out of thin air.

It's plain stupid to say that anyone who says 'that's gay' is homophobic.

No has said that. What is being said is that it is a very rude term to use given that the term identifies as homosexual in the common language and that using it in a negative way could be construed as offensive or upsetting to others.

I don't think you were the one who said it but someone earlier in the thread had said it.

As I said before, I have homosexual/bisexual friends who say it and hear it and it doesn't offend them. I think the "rudeness" of it depends on who you are dealing with. There are also a lot of hetero people who say it and are by no means homophobic.

 

[Daneel]

I've never liked hearing, "That's so gay!" It's quite obvious by the tone what is really being said: that the person finds something lame or stupid or ridiculous. Implicitly, this means that "gay" is a synonym for all these words, and I take issue with that.

Sure, most of the people that say it do so without thinking about it, and without intending it to sound derogatory towards homosexuals. I don't care. The implication is still there, intentional or not, and I will call them on it when I hear it. Yes, some gay people use this expression to, just as some black people use the term "nigger", and there's really little I can say to that. I do find, however, that most who use it do so to describe something as being gay in the actual homosexual sense, perhaps poking light fun at the stereotypes of their orientation, which isn't really a problem.

I heard this expression used countless times in high school, even by teachers on occasion. I also heard the word "faggot" on pretty much a daily basis too. It made me then, and it makes me now.

 

[Gryffindorian]

Correct, but they are doing so because "gay" is thought to be objectionable. They didn't pick the word out of thin air. "Dude, that's vacuous" never quite because all that popular. So why did "gay" come to mean objectionable? Of course! Because homosexuals are objectionable!

You know that. Don't lie to yourself.

I can see that, and I'm not questioning the other meanings of the word. My point is that you also have to look at the context or meaning of the word when it's used. And if a person really is gay, why would he/she be offended if someone calls him/her that?

Words like "moron," "imbecile," and "idiot" are commonly used by people as words of contempt rather than to refer to someone who actually has mental retardation (in a psychological sense of the word). "Fag" in the U.K. can mean "cigarette." Are you going to slap someone when they say, "Can I bum a fag?"

Okay, I get called "fucking faggot" usually several times a week. Comes with the job when some guys get a call they don't like or don't get a call they want. Nearly every call pisses someone off, and I get called things sailors in opposing navies wouldn't call each other.

But the one that always sticks out in my mind is "you fucking faggot". Are you going to debate that "fucking faggot" has a meaning we all clearly understand? Now, he's not calling me a "fucking faggot" because he sees me placing my cock in a man's ass, at which time "fucking faggot" would seem to fit the situation. No, he's calling me "fucking faggot" because he didn't like the yellow card he just received, or, something terribly drastic, like a throw in in the center 3rd didn't go his way (GASP!), so he decides to call the ref a "fucking faggot".

Now, I really don't think you can dance around the meaning of this.

Well, since you didn't mention your sexual orientation, I'm assuming you're a straight guy. Straight males (not all of them) have a history of being really insecure or threatened when someone calls them gay or are approached by gay males. Thus, calling a straight guy "gay" is visibly meant to be an insult.

You also have to consider that "faggot" (in the sense of gay) is a derogatory term (like "nigger" is to refer to a black person); there's no doubt it's used as an offensive slang word for homosexuals. Gay isn't a derogatory term. One could use it an insult, yes. But if someone says, "Best Buy is sooo gay for selling me this crappy MP3 player," it's no more different than saying, "Best Buy is sooo stupid for selling me this crappy item."

I'm not denying the etymology and possible usage for it. The point I was also trying to make is people have to be thick-skinned and not always be on the defensive.

 

[ThankQ]

Gay isn't a derogatory term. One could use it an insult, yes. But if someone says, "Best Buy is sooo gay for selling me this crappy MP3 player," it's no more different than saying, "Best Buy is sooo stupid for selling me this crappy item."

And how, exactly, is that NOT derogatory?

 

[Gryffindorian]

Gay is bad if you think it is.

My gay friends don't care if people use the word because they know it doesn't mean anything homophobic and even they say it. It's just a word that society randomly decided to make the meaning "stupid" but not for homophobic reasons.

'That is gay' = "That is stupid"


I think people are diving a little too deep when they start saying that if you say 'this is gay', you are saying that gay is wrong and you are homophobic. Most people don't even think of it having a deep meaning, they just say it because it's what people say.

Amen a thousand times!

If I wasn't gay/bi and you weren't married, I'd propose to you. You're as intelligent as you are pretty.

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

This purposes only two extremes. First off, using "feminist" in that way is pretty silly because feminist describes a whole spectrum of beliefs and values. Second, you're under cutting your own point. If women and men are not the same then they can't possible be treated the same. Difference will inevitably create different behavior and different expectations.

On the first, you are right, but it was a generalization since what a "feminist" entails is a whole different discussion all together. Most classic feminists want women to be and be treated exactly the same as men. But that's also my point: there's a difference between women and men, yes. But that makes them equal, not the same. As such, they should be treated equally, yes. Should they be treated the same? No. There is a difference to not treating people equally or not treating them the same; the first takes the differences in consideration, while the last tries to ignore the differences all together, which inevitably results in resentment.

Okay, I'll simply lay it out. I'm a male-to-female transsexual. The difference in how people react to your appearance as a male versus a female is like night and day. As a guy you can, say, go to class in the middle of the afternoon without shaving or changing out of your peejays. As a woman, you're going to get stares and get flack for it.

If being a MTF is such a problem over there, then I do have to mention that I respect you very much for making the choice that's right for you, no matter what other people believe.

Perhaps it's different in the US then here. Whenever I went to class in the middle of the afternoon without shaving, I would indeed get stares and get flack for it, both from girls and from boys. Nothing really negative, but they would comment on my stubble, asking "had a rough night?". Just as they would if a girl wouldn't do her hair. Over here, both women and men are expected to care for their looks. If you don't, you'll go fast to being a slacker or unhygienic in their eyes. As another example, don't even think about wearing the same shirt two days in a row; you'd definitely get shit for that; it's seen as unclean. Everybody has a shower and a washing machine, why should women need to use them but not men?

And before anyone barges in, claiming that caring for one's looks it shallow: It's not. It's regarded as being true to your looks, just like being true to your personality. Don't be something you're not, but don't be a dirty, smelly slacker either. There's a difference to being shallow and caring only for fashion, and simply trying to look good.

Maybe. They're called Americans. Here, as one poster has already pointed out, a man dressing in such a way as the typical metrosexual is going to be assumed to be gay.

Over here it's completely normal to clothe yourself in a good, fitting and fashionable way, to take care of your hair and body and to make sure you smell good. The people you talk about would probably assume, then, that the larger part of the people here, of the age of 30 or younger, are gay. Even though they're not. Sad, that, if they can't see past their own prejudices and convictions.

But the point still stands. "Nigger," rightfully, has a negative connotation because of its history.

Yes, in America, it has. Over here, some people try to put the same negative connotation to it, but so far, it hasn't really worked. If a word has a negative connotation, and you don't allow the word to be used in a non negative way, the word will keep having a negative connotation. Which, arguably, isn't good; we shouldn't forget the past, but we shouldn't keep living in it, either.

But the GLBT community in the States still is. Why in the fuck should we accept the use of a term that identified us with a negative connotation from a bunch of people who really aren't supporting our civil rights?

Because you can't do anything about it in the first place; to fight is is to make the situation worse. As long as you fight the use of a word like "gay", it will keep having a negative connotation, and people will keep on using it in a negative way, perhaps even more so. Not only that, but the word "gay" is not the property of homosexuals, just as the word "nigger" is not the property of blacks. It's a simple word; it's meaning will inevitably change over time.

It hasn't had any other meaning in common language in a very long time.

People are already using it with other meanings, like "feminine", "womanly", "of strong conviction", "of no conviction", "with a good dress sense", "with a bad dress sense", "stupid", "lame", etc. It's used in place of all sorts of words, and, this is the case with many other words as well. "Gay" is not special in any way. You might feel it's special, but it's not.

 

[Gryffindorian]

Gay isn't a derogatory term. One could use it an insult, yes. But if someone says, "Best Buy is sooo gay for selling me this crappy MP3 player," it's no more different than saying, "Best Buy is sooo stupid for selling me this crappy item."

And how, exactly, is that NOT derogatory?

Because the hypothetical example shows that Best Buy was despicable for selling the person a crappy item.

Derogatory: "That fucking faggot salesman said this was a good brand."
Non-derogatory: "Best Buy is so gay [objectionable/despicable/stupid] for selling me a crappy MP3 player."

 

[ThankQ]

Gay isn't a derogatory term. One could use it an insult, yes. But if someone says, "Best Buy is sooo gay for selling me this crappy MP3 player," it's no more different than saying, "Best Buy is sooo stupid for selling me this crappy item."

And how, exactly, is that NOT derogatory?

Because the hypothetical example shows that Best Buy was despicable for selling the person a crappy item.

Derogatory: "That fucking faggot salesman said this was a good brand."
Non-derogatory: "Best Buy is so gay [objectionable/despicable/stupid] for selling me a crappy MP3 player."

de⋅rog⋅a⋅to⋅ry  [di-rog-uh-tawr-ee, -tohr-ee]
–adjective
tending to lessen the merit or reputation of a person or thing; disparaging; depreciatory

If you're intending to put something down, it's derogatory.

"That sucks" means "That sucks" no matter if you say "that sucks" "that blows" "that bites" or "that's gay".

Your use of "that's gay" is intended to put down Best Buy for their product/service. That's exactly what derogatory is.

 

[Kirk's_Tights]

If a fat, smelly guys walks into the room and is burping, he'll get stares.

If a fat, smelly woman walks into the room and is burping, she'll get stares.


If a guy looks feminine, people will stare.

If a girl looks masculine, people will stare.


People stare at anything that catches their eye. If a hot chick walks into a club, people will look at her, just like if a hot guy walks in, people will look at him.


I think the difference lies in the actual way people act towards a person.

Take the internet, for example. Look at what happens when a female joins a male dominated forum: OMG FRESH PUSSY.

When a guy joins, the ladies don't do this. It's just 'hey, welcome'.


In other forums, if a girl joins and says she is a girl, the guys ask for pictures for proof. If a guy joins, he's just another guy and doesn't have to prove that he isn't really a girl.

If a bunch of guys agree with a girl, they want to get into her 'e-vag'. If a bunch of girls agree with a guy, it's nothing.

If a girl posts a picture in a skirt, she's a 'slut'. If a guy posts a picture with no shirt, it's fine.

 

[Uncle Sol]

Growing up I remember, "That's so Jewish!", was the insult of choice. I wonder if people can so easily defend this statement as they are, "That's so gay!"

It's insulting to constantly insinuate a group of people with all the negative things in life. If something bad is therefore Jewish then being Jewish is therefore bad. That's the mentality terms like that create. It reinforces all the hate and oppression placed on that group. It makes it okay to hate those who are Jewish.

It's degrading as a homosexual to be equally slandered. When you use what I am as an insult, how else am I supposed to take it? How else am I supposed to feel?

Think for a moment that those using this term are usually teens. If you are gay in high school and the term gay is thrown around as an insult or as a another way of saying something is stupid, would you feel safe? Would you want people to know you are gay when that is how it is associated?

 

[ThankQ]

If a girl posts a picture in a skirt, she's a 'slut'. If a guy posts a picture with no shirt, it's fine.

No, not anymore.

I mean, we all know RAMA is proud and showing off, we just don't say shit cause we don't wanna get hurt.

 

[Kirk's_Tights]

Growing up I remember, "That's so Jewish!", was the insult of choice. I wonder if people can so easily defend this statement as they are, "That's so gay!"

It's insulting to constantly insinuate a group of people with all the negative things in life. If something bad is therefore Jewish then being Jewish is therefore bad. That's the mentality terms like that create. It reinforces all the hate and oppression placed on that group. It makes it okay to hate those who are Jewish.

It's degrading as a homosexual to be equally slandered. When you use what I am as an insult, how else am I supposed to take it? How else am I supposed to feel?

Think for a moment that those using this term are usually teens. If you are gay in high school and the term gay is thrown around as an insult or as a another way of saying something is stupid, would you feel safe? Would you want people to know you are gay when that is how it is associated?

As said, it depends on who you are dealing with. A lot of people don't care because they don't hear "that is so gay" and start thinking "omg that guy is saying gays are bad". They take it as just another way to say 'stupid' as opposed to thinking the word has anything to do with being gay in the context it is used.


I understand what people are trying to say here, don't get me wrong, but people just don't hear the word and immediately associate it with 'gays are bad'.

 

[Gryffindorian]

And how, exactly, is that NOT derogatory?

Because the hypothetical example shows that Best Buy was despicable for selling the person a crappy item.

Derogatory: "That fucking faggot salesman said this was a good brand."
Non-derogatory: "Best Buy is so gay [objectionable/despicable/stupid] for selling me a crappy MP3 player."

de⋅rog⋅a⋅to⋅ry  [di-rog-uh-tawr-ee, -tohr-ee]
–adjective
tending to lessen the merit or reputation of a person or thing; disparaging; depreciatory

If you're intending to put something down, it's derogatory.

"That sucks" means "That sucks" no matter if you say "that sucks" "that blows" "that bites" or "that's gay".

Your use of "that's gay" is intended to put down Best Buy for their product/service. That's exactly what derogatory is.

We're talking about derogatory terms. Terms, words, like "fuck," "cunt," and "faggot." Derogatory, as in Vulgar Offensive Slang, or however they're labeled in the dictionary. Yes, if you want to get technical, you can say derogatory is disparaging or defamatory, but the same could be said about a lot of things in modern pop culture, from song lyrics to TV shows to movie plots. That's besides the point; "gay" itself is not necessarily an offensive word; it depends on how it's used in a sentence.

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Look at what happens when a female joins a male dominated forum: OMG FRESH PUSSY.

When a guy joins, the ladies don't do this. It's just 'hey, welcome'.

They keywords being male dominated. If a male joins a female dominated forum: OMG FRESH DICK. When a girl joins, they guys over there don't do that. It's just 'hey, welcome'.

If a girl posts a picture in a skirt, she's a 'slut'. If a guy posts a picture with no shirt, it's fine.

So now you're calling my girlfriend a slut?

But seriously: that's bullshit. There is one difference, however:

If a girl posts a picture in a skirt, guys call her "hottie".
If a girl posts a picture in a skirt, some girls call her "slut".

If a guy posts a picture without shirt, girls call him "hottie".
If a guy posts a picture without shirt, some guys call him "attention whore".

But that's about as big as a distinction you'll get; due to the fact that women are more easily jealous then men are.

Really, the age where girls who had lots of partners would be a "slut" while a guy who had lots of partners would be "cool" is long gone. Except perhaps under teenagers, but then, they are supposed to be insecure. And even then, under teenagers, it's more often "cool" then "slutty", even when it's a girl they're talking about.

 

[ThankQ]

But that's about as big as a distinction you'll get; due to the fact that women are more easily jealous then men are.

Oh boy.

 

[Kirk's_Tights]

They keywords being male dominated. If a male joins a female dominated forum: OMG FRESH DICK. When a girl joins, they guys over there don't do that. It's just 'hey, welcome'.

It depends where you go. I've been to female dominated forums and the general response was still 'hi, welcome'. I think it's just the nature of men and women. When men see a girl, they see a vag and breasts. When women see a guy, they see a person.

It's not to say the ladies don't think the guy is hot but the approach is different. Guys are visual and like to look at women. They are curious when a female joins because all they see is text on a screen and they want to see the woman behind it.

But seriously: that's bullshit. There is one difference, however:

If a girl posts a picture in a skirt, guys call her "hottie".
If a girl posts a picture in a skirt, some girls call her "slut".

If a guy posts a picture without shirt, girls call him "hottie".
If a guy posts a picture without shirt, some guys call him "attention whore".

But that's about as big as a distinction you'll get; due to the fact that women are more easily jealous then men are.

This is true.

I've seen a girl post a picture in her Halloween costume and other girls called her a slut and an attention whore while guys wagged their tongues.

When it comes to guys, it's more rare to see other guys say anything because, as you mentioned, chicks are usually more jealous. We want to be the one the guys look at and if some other girl takes our attention, she is our enemy.

Not all women, though, I should say that. Some of us don't care.

 

[TrekkieMonster]

Okay, like I said above, this whole issue is barely a blip on my "gay radar screen". And I want to be clear in stating that neither I nor most people I know would consider someone "homophobic" (a word I dislike intensely, by the way) for using the phrase "That's so gay", or the like.

Nevertheless, I am astounded that otherwise intelligent people cannot see that this ...

"that's so gay" = "that's so stupid"

... isn't derogatory.

Seriously?

I would concede that most people who use the phrase now probably don't know where it came from, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's "innocent".

I remember when I was young, it was not uncommon to hear someone use phrases such as:

"I really jewed him down on the price of that car."

"She was an Indian Giver."

Can you seriously think that, regardless of the speaker's knowledge of its origins, these phrases weren't derogatory to Jews or Native Americans?

I know we're also dealing with the whole societal backlash against rampant "PC-ness".

But, really.

You can use the phrase and you can give all the excuses you want, but at base it all comes back to the fact that the word "gay" is being equated with negativity; something undesirable. And that does have an adverse effect on a lot of gay people out there. If you don't care about that, fine, go about your business, but at least be honest about it.

*stepping off the soapbox now*

I'd love to say this subject has really taken more time than it warrants, but I think the tenor of the conversation, itself, belies that. Clearly, this kind of thing is still an issue.

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

It depends where you go. I've been to female dominated forums and the general response was still 'hi, welcome'. I think it's just the nature of men and women. When men see a girl, they see a vag and breasts. When women see a guy, they see a person.

It's not to say the ladies don't think the guy is hot but the approach is different. Guys are visual and like to look at women. They are curious when a female joins because all they see is text on a screen and they want to see the woman behind it.

While it has been proven that men are generally more visual then women, I don't agree on the first bit.

Women who have been "generously provided for" often talk about the fact that most men they encounter on the street look at their breasts before anything else. But let me tell you, most women I encounter on the street look at my crotch (or butt, depending on which way they come from) before anything else; sure, when they reach my face the attention will hang there, but it begins down there. When it's cold, the attention quickly turns to something else. When it's hot outside, they usually keep staring. As if they literally see a dick walking by. It's kinda funny.

Most women don't go "ohh, he must have a great personality", unless they guy's simply fucking ugly. First impressions are just that, impressions about one's exterior appearance. And women do first impressions just as much as guys. Only after that come the actual talking.

When it comes to guys, it's more rare to see other guys say anything because, as you mentioned, chicks are usually more jealous. We want to be the one the guys look at and if some other girl takes our attention, she is our enemy.

Not all women, though, I should say that. Some of us don't care.

Exactly. In my experience, a lot of women to tend to see other (especially more attractive) women as a threat, as competition, while men tend to see other men as homies; someone to have a drink with, and talk about women with. Not all women, for sure. Usually those who have a good sense of self-esteem are not as jealous.

I sometimes like to walk 10-20 meters behind my girlfriend, on purpose. Just to hear the remarks. And while guys will say "she's hot", there are a lot more women who say "look at that, what a bitch/slut" then there are those who say "she looks good".

On the other hand, I'd rather be the most attractive guy in the bar then one of the less attractive ones; I don't like it if half the attention goes from me to someone else. So even men have that jealousy, if only somewhat milder.