Actually, scientifically speaking, that's not true at all.
Recent findings show that culture is hard wired into the genome.
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/05/songbirdculture/
You might want to re-evaluate what you think culture actually is.
Who are the Romulans?
- Thread starter TK421
- Start date
Actually, scientifically speaking, that's not true at all.
Recent findings show that culture is hard wired into the genome.
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/05/songbirdculture/
You might want to re-evaluate what you think culture actually is.
Okay, turn it on its head.
Why are Worf and Spock so interesting?
Because they are unusual among their races. They offer unique perspectives.
The reason they are able to do this as characters is because there's a defined culture behind them.
The reason Shinzon and Nero don't stand out as iconic is because we have very little idea what they're either rebelling against or agreeing with in terms of their own culture.
The United States to answer you question directly, means different things to different people. Perceiving a culture depends on perspective.
From the inside the USA is rich and diverse. From the outside it's either Capitalism, Imperialsim, Cowboys and a few others I'm sure.
The drama comes from the characters shattering or rigidly adhering to the preconceived notion.
Lions and songbirds and Romulans, oh my!
Interesting, as a look at one aspect of bird behavior and its possible implications for other species (including humans) but even if you could somehow reduce that to a single word (remember your premise?) you're still talking about a single aspect of behavior only, not a whole culture, or even really a proper language. Further, songbirds don't form space empires, as far as we know (though that notion does set up a few "Darmok"-like story possibilities.)
I think you may be reaching with this, just a bit.
Erroneous? No sir… Socialism, like many economic systems, is based on a philosophy and not solely on economics. It could be argued that the Borg has indeed eliminated the need for a financial system as we know it, but the ideology still remains. The concept that every individual is part of the greater cause, a universal equality. I don’t see the Borg as a dictatorship, that would require a singular vision of which the goal is to empower one voice at the expense of its populace, although that is indeed debatable as to what the Borg are, but the goals, I believe, are different. There is a queen, but she only serves the collective. It is an obvious slave state, but one in which all it’s citizens are brought into a higher awareness and perception, empowering each individual and granting them with an elevated purpose. Unlike fascism, which seeks to terminate the weak and annihilate opposition, once assimilated the Borg absorb all that a given alien culture has to offer, vitalizing their strengths and adding it to their own, all for the function of seeking absolute perfection and create order in a chaotic universe. At the very root of socialism that is the goal. Of course, this is done by force, and classifies the Borg as a totalitarian regime at its worst defintion. But haven’t we seen former Borg’s often seeking to reconnect to that communal structure even after they are “freed” from the collective? That is why I see it as socialism run amok. Perhaps what socialism is lacking, as a working construct, is a total and absolute commitment from its citizens… which is what the Borg has removed from the equation.
As for the Andorians being like the French?… Said in jest I assure you, but they do exibit a cultural Napoleon complex. Besides that comparison, they are also arrogant, distrustful, xenophobic, ungrateful, paranoid, and slightly racist… oui?
That doesn't show that culture is hard-wired, that shows that the tendency to form a culture is hard-wired.
No one's arguing that if left in isolation, a community will not develop its own culture.
I'm saying, cultures change. They are dynamic, full of internal conflict, and evolve over time.
Don't believe me?
Open a goddamn history book -- a real one, not the propaganda they feed kids in public schools -- and stop quoting articles about bird songs.
And no one's contesting that cultures will still tend to have norms and that individuals who break those norms are interesting, dramatically.
But the fact remains that cultures are full of diversity even within their norms. Consider Worf, who found himself in political conflict with the greedy and power-hungry House of Duras, whose leaders cared nothing for Klingon honor or loyalty. Or Spock, the son of a Vulcan who deviated chose to marry a Human -- unthinkable just a century earlier -- and a man who comes from a culture that produces Vulcans diverse enough in normative behavior to have characters who range from Soval to V'Las to Sarek to Tuvok to T'Pol to even the V'tosh k'tor. A culture, by the way, that had undergone fundamental change from the soft imperialism and ethnocentrism of the ENT era to the embrace of pacifism and peaceful, egalitarian partnership with Humans, Tellarites, and Andorians of the TOS and TNG eras.
Yes, cultures exist and they have norms, but they are also dynamic institutions full of diversity as well.
No, Shinzon doesn't stand out as iconic because his behavior makes no sense on any level (he grew up oppressed by Romulans, so he's going to get his revenge by destroying... Earth?), and Nero doesn't stand out because his behavior doesn't make sense (he blames the man who did everything to save Romulus for its destruction?) and he wasn't given enough screen time for his crazy to shine through.
To a point. But the more direct answer would be: The United States contains more than one subculture! It has factions. It's not just that it means different things based on one's perspective -- it's that it actually, literally encompasses different, conflicting factions. There's not a "true" United States that exists and that different people perceive differently -- the United States just encompasses multiple factions vying for power who have different ideals.
Just like any culture does.
How consistent cultures are in the real world isn't the point. Star Trek has always oversimplified alien cultures (and Earth culture, too - no more nations, religions, capitalism, or competing ideas, just one vast vanilla blob of kum-bay-ah 
.)
That's becuase Star Trek isn't about cultures. It's about individuals. Cardassian culture matters only to the extent that it tells us something about Dukat, Damar, Garak and the other Cardies we see on screen - how much are they a product of their culture? How much can we assume they are rebelling against their culture, to be the way we're seeing them be? Ditto for Spock, Worf, Odo, Seven, etc. First we need the oversimplied and unchanging alien culture as a backdrop, then we understand the character. (Which is the more or less the point TK421 already made.)
The point about Rommies is that we don't yet have an adequate backdrop for the culture. After that is created, we might be able to have a major Romulan character who can exist in a story for more than a few episodes - something we've never had! And it's high time we did.
But even before the Rommie backdrop can be created, we need to get Trek back on TV. A backdrop is hard to create in the confines of a movie, where most of the screen time must be devoted to existing characters and action.
.) That's becuase Star Trek isn't about cultures. It's about individuals. Cardassian culture matters only to the extent that it tells us something about Dukat, Damar, Garak and the other Cardies we see on screen - how much are they a product of their culture? How much can we assume they are rebelling against their culture, to be the way we're seeing them be? Ditto for Spock, Worf, Odo, Seven, etc. First we need the oversimplied and unchanging alien culture as a backdrop, then we understand the character. (Which is the more or less the point TK421 already made.)
The point about Rommies is that we don't yet have an adequate backdrop for the culture. After that is created, we might be able to have a major Romulan character who can exist in a story for more than a few episodes - something we've never had! And it's high time we did.
But even before the Rommie backdrop can be created, we need to get Trek back on TV. A backdrop is hard to create in the confines of a movie, where most of the screen time must be devoted to existing characters and action.
What's that saying about the best way to create a realistic fake culture? Pick one or two historic or existing real-world cultures, glean characteristics that you like, and mix to the point where it's not recognizable as any one of the cultures that influenced you? Something like that.
That's behavior, not culture, and even that isn't consistent overtime. Birds closer to urban areas usually switch their songs to higher frequencies to be heard better over the low-frequency noise of engines and machinery used by humans. Likewise, humback whales have used different tonal frequencies over the past few years, apparently in a conscious effort to avoid being confused or obscured by sonar devices of naval vessels.
So indeed, culture is hard wired into the genome of living beings; the FORM of that culture, however, is not.
I quite agree.
This, also, is reaching to make a point, I think, or perhaps aiming to make a point belonging to another topic.
The jest wasn't really all that funny to begin with, and a broad-brush generalization of an entire real-world nation A) is rarely accurate, and B) falls outside the scope of this forum's topic (i.e., the 2009 Star Trek movie.) I think both parts of your response (and much of your previous post, as well) would have been a better fit elsewhere. Leave real-world politics to forums appropriate to those topics.
In fact, I'm beginning to wonder why this thread was posted in Trek XI at all. Have we even talked about the movie? I find little more than a few passing mentions and quite a lot which has nothing to do with Trek whatsoever.
The thread is about Trek's fictional alien cultures (Romulan chiefly, as they are depicted in the new film and elsewhere) and how they might represent real-world societies. My posts were in response to posts that came before and challenges to my posts thereafter, beginning with my thoughts on the Romulans in Trek. I feel my posts have stayed on topic. While I would grant you the slight deviation, they remained under the blanket theme. At any rate, I understand your point, I’m unaffected by your censure, but respect your opinion; I guess you're free to move along now.
Last edited:
I really don't understand the problem you have with the thread. The main opponent in Star Trek was a ship full of Romulans. It's clear from other threads that although the vast majority of people loved the film (myself included) we can still see the weakness in Nero. And considering the way Shinzon and his cadre were handled in the previous movie, it begs the question, was there a problem with the writing, or is there a problem with the Romulans as a whole which leads to flat Romulan characters.
You're the moderator, it's up to you if you want a forum full of shallow threads about who does or does not love Kirk's hair. But it seems a bit overly micro-managed to me.
But I'm cool, whatever you decide. Personally I thought this was turning out to be a very substantive thread with some very interesting views expressed.
It's not a problem with the Romulans, it's a problem with Star Trek. Romulan culture has never been deeply explored, except to emphasize in the number of ways that they are, on the whole, a very unpleasant people. Unification barely scratched the surface, but didn't get deep enough to establish anything of substance except that even when they're being nice, they're usually plotting behind your back.
The Romulans have always been a villain-race on Trek, and STXI was not the time to search the Romulan soul. Maybe later, when there's less going on...
The Romulans have always been a villain-race on Trek, and STXI was not the time to search the Romulan soul. Maybe later, when there's less going on...
Similar threads
