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Who are the Romulans?

No, they really don't, and trying to reduce an alien culture to a single concept only creates shallow caricatures and stereotypes instead of fully three-dimensional cultures and characters.

Well, you can blame TNG for that. It's the series that assigned different species to each represent one slice of humanity. Ferengi = greed, Klingons = honorable warriors, etc. DS9, on the other hand, reversed much of that by breaking the stereotypes.

I always thought the Borg were a metaphor for evangelical Christianity during the Dark Ages.

I think to see the Romulans as anything but Imperial Romans is to overthink the issue. I mean, come on: Romulus, Remus, Praetor, Centurion, etc etc.
 
No, they really don't, and trying to reduce an alien culture to a single concept only creates shallow caricatures and stereotypes instead of fully three-dimensional cultures and characters.

Well, you can blame TNG for that. It's the series that assigned different species to each represent one slice of humanity. Ferengi = greed, Klingons = honorable warriors, etc. DS9, on the other hand, reversed much of that by breaking the stereotypes.

I always thought the Borg were a metaphor for evangelical Christianity during the Dark Ages.

I think to see the Romulans as anything but Imperial Romans is to overthink the issue. I mean, come on: Romulus, Remus, Praetor, Centurion, etc etc.
To be fair to TNG, its Klingon-centred episodes, mostly written by Ron Moore, such as "Sins of the Father" and the entire the storyline about Duras and the Klingon leadership covering up for his father's betrayal while pinning it on Worf's father Mogh; or the charade with clone/fake Kahless; or the very character of chancellor Gowron, painted a bit more complex picture of the Klingon Empire, showing that "honour" can sometimes be a catchword that Klingons use to hide behind and justify their political games or selfishness, and that not all Klingons are as honorable as Worf (ironically, it is almost as if growing up and living outside of Klingon Empire has made Worf a much stronger believer in Klingon values - maybe he tends to idealize and take them more seriously precisely because he is a "diaspora character" so to speak). Some of the Klingon storylines were actually carried over in multiple episodes over multiple seasons and almost consitututed a long storyarc, and with this and the complexity of the Klingon politics, they feel like a precursor to DS9, where this was further developed (Chancellor Gowron is an even darker and less honorable character in season 7 of DS9, while standalone episode "The House Of Quark" goes against stereotypes by giving Quark a courageous moment in exposing the hypocrisy of a Klingon who use the cover of honor and tradition while he is really motivated by greed).
 
I don't think the Borg represent Communists per se, nor medieval Christians. I think they're supposed to be a very generic metaphor for any society that has put the value of the group over that of the individual to such an extent that individual rights are routinely violated, and for extreme imperialism.
 
< -- Packer fan. Five generations of my husband's family live in Green Bay and are Packer fans. Vince and the 50's and 60's teams used to eat at the grandfather's restaurant every day. Packer fans are the nicest fans you'd want to meet, IMO.
 
For the Romulans, I think the TOS inspiration obstensibly was Red China. The name Shinzon in NEM was an acknowledgement of that for example. However, elements of Roman society were used far more to define Romulan society.

Perhaps on TNG they talked a little bit more about racial purity, but I don't think they were that much more extreme than the Klingons or Cardassians in that regard, so I don't think I could define them as Nazis or racial supremacists totally.

In the ENT relaunch, the editor suggested that the writers look to North Korea as a modern example.

I'm not quite sure who the Romulans are. I haven't read all of the Diane Duane novels, but she seems to do a good job defining their culture; better than what we've seen on TV. I think the Romulans have been whatever the writers needed them to be at the time. From honorable foes in TOS to the crafty xenophobes in the 24th century.
 
I'm not quite sure who the Romulans are. I haven't read all of the Diane Duane novels, but she seems to do a good job defining their culture; better than what we've seen on TV. I think the Romulans have been whatever the writers needed them to be at the time. From honorable foes in TOS to the crafty xenophobes in the 24th century.
I think you've nailed the problem with the portrayal of Romulans in Trek. :vulcan:
 
I'm not quite sure who the Romulans are. I haven't read all of the Diane Duane novels, but she seems to do a good job defining their culture; better than what we've seen on TV. I think the Romulans have been whatever the writers needed them to be at the time. From honorable foes in TOS to the crafty xenophobes in the 24th century.
I think you've nailed the problem with the portrayal of Romulans in Trek. :vulcan:

I don't think that's a problem. I think that's a realistic depiction of a fictional culture.

Cultures are not homogenous things. They're composed of many different factions with many different followers who all have competing ideas about what the "ideal" form of their culture ought to be.

A realistically-written culture, therefore, would by definition not always be consistent.
 
I'm not quite sure who the Romulans are. I haven't read all of the Diane Duane novels, but she seems to do a good job defining their culture; better than what we've seen on TV. I think the Romulans have been whatever the writers needed them to be at the time. From honorable foes in TOS to the crafty xenophobes in the 24th century.
I think you've nailed the problem with the portrayal of Romulans in Trek. :vulcan:

I don't think that's a problem. I think that's a realistic depiction of a fictional culture.

Cultures are not homogenous things. They're composed of many different factions with many different followers who all have competing ideas about what the "ideal" form of their culture ought to be.

A realistically-written culture, therefore, would by definition not always be consistent.
There is a huge difference between a culture being portrayed in a complex way, with differrent factions and different individual characterizations (Cardassians) and a culture being portrayed inconsistently because the writers don't have a clear picture what they want it to be and are just using it as a plot device, for whatever they need at the time (Romulans).
 
I think you've nailed the problem with the portrayal of Romulans in Trek. :vulcan:

I don't think that's a problem. I think that's a realistic depiction of a fictional culture.

Cultures are not homogenous things. They're composed of many different factions with many different followers who all have competing ideas about what the "ideal" form of their culture ought to be.

A realistically-written culture, therefore, would by definition not always be consistent.
There is a huge difference between a culture being portrayed in a complex way, with differrent factions and different individual characterizations (Cardassians) and a culture being portrayed inconsistently because the writers don't have a clear picture what they want it to be and are just using it as a plot device, for whatever they need at the time (Romulans).

Okay. Please illustrate how the Romulans were written in that manner.

And then please tell me how it's any different from how very different the governments of, say, the United States and Russia behave under George W. Bush vs. Barack Obama and Boris Yeltsin vs. Vladimir Putin.
 
The Borg are not necessarily communists, but the Borg ARE indeed an example of Socialism run amuck, a "share the wealth" society with welfare programs and collective farms, plus an insatiable need to show others the “true way”… They are Amway salesmen.

I love the Romulans because, just like the society for which they are based, they are many things at any given time. Brutal but fair, imperialistic but democratic, conquerors and separatists. But always in contrast to what the Federation is or tries to be, which in many ways makes them the best foil for any Star Trek adventure.

Klingons are the Mongol Hordes.

Vulcans are Buddists.

The Bajorians represent the Jewish/Palestinian dichotomy.

The Cardassians are Dick Cheney.

And the Andorians are the French... 'nuff said.
 
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The best simplification I would do would be:

Romulans: Imperialists

But that isn't quite precise enough to quite capture the way I see it.

I mean, really, "imperialists" describes most of the major powers in Star Trek -- Romulans, Cardassians, Klingons, Borg, Dominion, and, arguably, the Federation.

Yeah, but I think it may be the Romulans' one overriding characteristic, whereas the others have other shtick.
 
Romulans aren't comparable to any world nation, which makes them a great villain no matter what series. They're basically something like North Korea I guess? Except if they were up to scratch with the US.
 
The Borg are not necessarily communists, but the Borg ARE indeed an example of Socialism run amuck, a "share the wealth" society with welfare programs and collective farms

Not really. Socialism is about, as you say, sharing the wealth -- democratic states owning the means of production, creating government-run systems like education or medical care. It's an economic system. There's nothing particularly Socialistic about the Borg -- they don't really have an economy per se. They don't have a welfare system -- everyone is enslaved to the Queen.

It's fair to say that the Borg represent any system where the rights of the individual have been forgotten or ignored. But to specifically equate the Borg with Socialism is erroneous. They could just as equally be compared to a Fascist system, or to a corporate oligarchy, or to a totalitarian dictatorship. They could be compared to any system that ignores the rights of the individual in favor of the dominance of one person or of a small minority of people -- and that encompasses a lot more than "Socialism run amok."

And the Andorians are the French... 'nuff said.

... how's that?
 
I'm not quite sure who the Romulans are. I haven't read all of the Diane Duane novels, but she seems to do a good job defining their culture; better than what we've seen on TV. I think the Romulans have been whatever the writers needed them to be at the time. From honorable foes in TOS to the crafty xenophobes in the 24th century.
I think you've nailed the problem with the portrayal of Romulans in Trek. :vulcan:

Yup.
 
I'm not quite sure who the Romulans are. I haven't read all of the Diane Duane novels, but she seems to do a good job defining their culture; better than what we've seen on TV. I think the Romulans have been whatever the writers needed them to be at the time. From honorable foes in TOS to the crafty xenophobes in the 24th century.
I think you've nailed the problem with the portrayal of Romulans in Trek. :vulcan:

I don't think that's a problem. I think that's a realistic depiction of a fictional culture.

Real cultures are remarkably consistent. Usually because things like constitutions or historical precedent dictate cultural norms.

It takes a massive crisis to change a culture, which is why the Klingon crisis in Star Trek 6 resonated so well.

Look at it this way. Imagine Romulans are lions. And you go to the movies to see this pack of Romulan lions hunt antelope because that's what they do. But instead, you find a story about a A Romulan lion that's stalking a potato. And this is a serious movie, not a comedy.

But Lions are carnivores.

So do you:

a. celebrate the realistic depiction of a complex lion culture.

b. shout from the rooftops - that's not a freakin' lion! That's not how lions act!
 
I think you've nailed the problem with the portrayal of Romulans in Trek. :vulcan:

I don't think that's a problem. I think that's a realistic depiction of a fictional culture.

Real cultures are remarkably consistent.

Really? Tell me, then, is American culture characterized by a strong, government-endorsed devotion to the Christian religion, the centrality of the family, a belief that every pregnancy should proceed naturally, the dominance of private industry, heteronominativity, a division in power between men and women, and a deserved division of wealth between those who are high-achievers and those who are low achievers? Or is American culture characterized by religious neutrality in the public sphere, the centrality of the individual over the family, a belief in the right of women to choose to terminate their pregnancies, a large role for government in regulating markets, sexual freedom, egalitarian relations between men and women, and a belief in an equitable distribution of wealth?

And that's just the most obvious example. Cultures are not remarkably consistent, and if you don't believe me, just look at how much European cultures have changed since 1900. Cultures are always in flux, and they're always comprised of factions seeking to influence the culture. Continuity of culture is an illusion.

Look at it this way. Imagine Romulans are lions. And you go to the movies to see this pack of Romulan lions hunt antelope because that's what they do. But instead, you find a story about a A Romulan lion that's stalking a potato. And this is a serious movie, not a comedy.

But Lions are carnivores.

So do you:

a. celebrate the realistic depiction of a complex lion culture.

b. shout from the rooftops - that's not a freakin' lion! That's not how lions act!

False analogy. Romulans are a sentient species, not animals driven by blind instinct.

And, frankly, all Romulans are not going to be alike. It's really that simple.

People are different. I promise you, if you go to England, you'll find that not every Englishman drinks tea and keeps a stiff upper lip to do his duty for the Queen. If you go to France, you'll discover that not every Frechman is a romantic artist who smokes, wears a beret, and hates Americans. If you go to Canada, you'll find that not every Canadian likes hockey and says "aboot" and "eh." If you go to Ireland, you'll see that not every Irishman is an alcoholic Catholic who hates the English. Etc.

That's why you might notice, if you study international relations, that the behaviors of a state towards other states can change drastically depending on who's in charge. Just look at the United States -- under George W. Bush, it followed the ideology of Neo-Conservatism, disdaining international institutions like the United Nations and preferring to act unilaterally when possible and through ad hoc coalitions otherwise, believing that it could bully other countries into following its will and launching invasions and occupations of countries it deemed "evil" as part of a social engineering project to forcibly alter other cultures into liberal democracies. Under Bill Clinton before that, however, the United States was characterized by a belief in a hybridization of liberal and realist schools of thought regarding foreign relations, making regular use of international institutions and permanent alliances such as the United Nations and North Atlantic Treaty Organization, preferring to use economic sanctions and enticements to alter the behavior of rogue states and to use limited missile attacks when it felt violence was unavoidable, all the while avoiding full-scale wars. And now we've seen a third major version of U.S. foreign policy, with the open declaration from the sitting President that the State of Israel's policies will not receive its unqualified support and that the State of Palestine needs to exist and that many Palestinians are suffering from Israeli actions -- a move well away from the traditionally uncritical nature of the U.S.-Israeli alliance.

Now, do you look at the United States and say, when one faction or the other takes over from the other, "That's wrong, that's not how Americans actually behave!" Or do you look at the U.S. and recognize that different factions exist within its culture and have very different ideas about how to run the place?

And bear in mind that Star Trek: Nemesis did establish, quite clearly, that Romulus changes governments fairly frequently.
 
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