Oh, No, another Slap on the Wrist from Janeway.

[kimc]

She's not a woman. She's a Starship Captain.

She might eventually describe herself as a woman, but I doubt it's in her top 5 or my top twenty.

Eh?

What Guy Gardener means is that defining Janeway by sex is rather foolish . Very few people see themselves in terms of sex, particularly in a society where distinct gender roles have broken down. Janeway is many other things before she is a woman.

Okay - I was thinking something else but I like your interpretation better. Thanks.

 

[Guy Gardener]

She's not a woman. She's a Starship Captain.

She might eventually describe herself as a woman, but I doubt it's in her top 5 or my top twenty.

Eh?

We all wear lots of hats, and each of those hats have different responsibilities and duties usually in competition with the rest of our hats.

How many hats can you wear at the same time?

Which hat do you leave in the closet for Sunday best?

Janeway would pour kerosene on and flick a lit match at most of her other hats if they even thought about f*&^ing with her Captains hat.

 

[kimc]

^ I hope for your sake tsq doesn't find out about your burning hat analogy given her love of hats. As for me I'm just grateful it's not shoes.

 

[Lynx]

^^

Shoooooooes? Are you talking about shoooooooooes? I sell shoooooooooes!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Wife. Funny word. Rhymes with "Life" but means the exact opposite.

 

[Square]

Anyway, I love the fact she's not consistent. Her flaws are what make her my favorite character. I'm perfectly aware she was a wonky captain, and probably bipolar (if mental illness still exists in the 24th century), but that's what I love about her. Other people see her flaws as a reason to dislike her. Whatever. It's all good in the hood.

Oh, yeah. I'm with you 100%.

"Bipolar," "Wonky," mentally ill people should not be in charge of WMDs - that is, captaining a starship. Or didn't we learn anything from "The Wounded"?

Maybe not. But she wasn't "assigned" to lead a ship into the Delta quadrant. She was put there by accident. For all we know, she wouldn't have been wonky if she had remained in the AQ commanding routine missions. Most of the crew of VOY were less than ideally suited for the task they got handed. There's a high probability that, had Starfleet a mind to send a ship to the DQ, the crew of VOY would've been their last choice, but that's why I found the show so much fun. My only regret is that Janeway wasn't even MORE wonky and the crew more disreputable.

I found Janeway fascinating to watch. Of course, you can find her a fascinating character and still dislike her as a person. It just so happens I like both.

 

[Thestral]

Oh, yeah. I'm with you 100%.

"Bipolar," "Wonky," mentally ill people should not be in charge of WMDs - that is, captaining a starship. Or didn't we learn anything from "The Wounded"?

Maybe not. But she wasn't "assigned" to lead a ship into the Delta quadrant. She was put there by accident. For all we know, she wouldn't have been wonky if she had remained in the AQ commanding routine missions. Most of the crew of VOY were less than ideally suited for the task they got handed. There's a high probability that, had Starfleet a mind to send a ship to the DQ, the crew of VOY would've been their last choice, but that's why I found the show so much fun. My only regret is that Janeway wasn't even MORE wonky and the crew more disreputable.

I found Janeway fascinating to watch. Of course, you can find her a fascinating character and still dislike her as a person. It just so happens I like both.

I can't disagree with that.

 

[Kathryn_Janeway]

During my time in The Delta Quadrant, I have had to change the dynamics of both the professional and personal relationships between myself and the crew.

On one hand, I am their Captain, I have a duty to lead and protect them from everything we encounter in The Delta Quadrant and that means maintaining a distance from personal relationships with crewmembers, on the other hand I am the leader of a community and need to be approachable as well as understanding and at times an advisor.

Our first mission was seen as a short journey to The Badlands, nothing more, we didn't require the need of a Councillor or any other resource for maintaining crew morale and mental wellbeing.

There have been times when I have seemed lenient on crewmembers and some times when I have appeared, well some would say out of control, but all of the crewmembers are human, as am I and we all make mistakes, the important thing is that we learn from them, which my crew has shown they have done, time and again.

My interactions with The Equinox Crew were severe, they broke the basic foundations of Starfleet, even The Federation. They disregarded every principle I stand for and for that, I am unforgiving.

Captain Ransom saw the errors of his ways and did attempt to make amends towards the end, for this he would have been forgiven, not immediately granted, but I feel he would have continued to pay the price for his misguided actions.

So although I seem to be as someone said "a pushover mom" I simply chose to allow my crew the freedom to express their humanity.

 

[Square]

"Bipolar," "Wonky," mentally ill people should not be in charge of WMDs - that is, captaining a starship. Or didn't we learn anything from "The Wounded"?

She was bipolar because the character was written unevenly. I don't think Janeway was mentally ill. I like her flaws, too. A perfect captain would be boring, don't you think?

I don't think she was mentally ill or (actually) bipolar either, I was just making a point. Not being perfect is one thing... but Starfleet Command wisely has regs about mentally unbalanced people being in command of a starship. Mother-hen-ish? Sacrificing of principles? Ivory-tower-smug about morality? Those make her an imperfect captain, but a (potentially) compelling one. There's a spectrum of "flaws" out there, and "mental illness" I don't think is a good one for a starship captain to have.

Oh, I don't think it would be "good" in a practical sense.

But, as I've already suggested, if she was bipolar or "mentally unbalanced" in some fashion, it could very well be manifesting because of the DQ, or it could even be being caused by it (isolation, stress, ect.). Maybe she would've been dandy if she had simply kept her butt parked in the AQ.

As for her "depression," was it brought on by a chemical imbalance, or was it just her propensity for self-flaggellation? "Mental illness" or personality? I also got the impression by Taylor's use of the puppy in the snow storm, that Kjay is cool providing she can focus on someone else's wellbeing and not marinate in her own self-recrimination.

The DQ: Kjay's salvation and her own personal Hell.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

During my time in The Delta Quadrant, I have had to change the dynamics of both the professional and personal relationships between myself and the crew.

On one hand, I am their Captain, I have a duty to lead and protect them from everything we encounter in The Delta Quadrant and that means maintaining a distance from personal relationships with crewmembers, on the other hand I am the leader of a community and need to be approachable as well as understanding and at times an advisor.

Our first mission was seen as a short journey to The Badlands, nothing more, we didn't require the need of a Councillor or any other resource for maintaining crew morale and mental wellbeing.

There have been times when I have seemed lenient on crewmembers and some times when I have appeared, well some would say out of control, but all of the crewmembers are human, as am I and we all make mistakes, the important thing is that we learn from them, which my crew has shown they have done, time and again.

My interactions with The Equinox Crew were severe, they broke the basic foundations of Starfleet, even The Federation. They disregarded every principle I stand for and for that, I am unforgiving.

Captain Ransom saw the errors of his ways and did attempt to make amends towards the end, for this he would have been forgiven, not immediately granted, but I feel he would have continued to pay the price for his misguided actions.

So although I seem to be as someone said "a pushover mom" I simply chose to allow my crew the freedom to express their humanity.

An interesting defence from the Captain herself!

 

[Square]

Actually, I think that your use of "Chakotard" shows a bit of bias from you, too, doesn't it?

I won't lie, I don't find Janeway a consistent leader, therefore she isn't a compelling leader to me. But I also find the use of tears in this instance to be *really* off-putting. This is not because I'm "determined to see Janeway in a bad light." It's one of the things that *leads me* to see her in a bad light.

I hate Chakotard. You bet I'm biased. He was a badly written character, and a stupid man. My only beef is when people seem to think Chakotard being a weenie was somehow Janeway's fault, or that his was a much put-upon victim of Janeway's whims. Get real. He was a big boy and he made his own decisions. His being pathetic is his own problem.

Anyway, I love the fact she's not consistent. Her flaws are what make her my favorite character. I'm perfectly aware she was a wonky captain, and probably bipolar (if mental illness still exists in the 24th century), but that's what I love about her. Other people see her flaws as a reason to dislike her. Whatever. It's all good in the hood.

As for "tears," she didn't cry in that scene. She made a comment. I still fail to see how she was trying to "manipulate" Chakotard into action when she had already made a choice and he had his orders. It doesn't make much sense. As for her display of emotion, she wasn't "crying and pouting," she made a comment. That's it. Was it "emotional?" Sure. Do para-military leaders displaying emotion undermine the command structure? No.

Don't get me wrong, I like flawed characters. They're more interesting.

I just don't like Janeway.

And, guess what? I'm entitled to have that opinion on this board, whether you think it has any validity or not.

Eh?

I didn't say anything about whether anybody's opinion is "valid" or whether they're entitled to it. I stated MY opinion that not liking Janeway because she didn't pay enough attention to the "Native American hunk" is a silly reason to dislike her (and a rationale I suspect that springs from between the legs, rather than from the between the ears). As it stands, this is also an opinion I'm entitled to express.

Anyway, as for Janeway, it's entirely possible to find a character interesting and still not like them on a personal level. Hannibal Lecter is endlessly entertaining, but I doubt I would ever want to have tea with him.

 

[Square]

^^
"Mosaic" is a great book but Janeway's background story still gives me some headache. I think that she seems to be a bit wimpy and unsecure from being a child to her becoming Captain, there must have been some significant change between her graduation from the Academy and her being Captain on Voyager.

And Picard was a punk who got knifed in the heart prior to assuming command.

"Misfits" becoming captain aren't unheard of. I loved Kjay as a unsure nerd.

 

[teya]

I hate Chakotard. You bet I'm biased. He was a badly written character, and a stupid man. My only beef is when people seem to think Chakotard being a weenie was somehow Janeway's fault, or that his was a much put-upon victim of Janeway's whims. Get real. He was a big boy and he made his own decisions. His being pathetic is his own problem.

Anyway, I love the fact she's not consistent. Her flaws are what make her my favorite character. I'm perfectly aware she was a wonky captain, and probably bipolar (if mental illness still exists in the 24th century), but that's what I love about her. Other people see her flaws as a reason to dislike her. Whatever. It's all good in the hood.

As for "tears," she didn't cry in that scene. She made a comment. I still fail to see how she was trying to "manipulate" Chakotard into action when she had already made a choice and he had his orders. It doesn't make much sense. As for her display of emotion, she wasn't "crying and pouting," she made a comment. That's it. Was it "emotional?" Sure. Do para-military leaders displaying emotion undermine the command structure? No.

Don't get me wrong, I like flawed characters. They're more interesting.

I just don't like Janeway.

And, guess what? I'm entitled to have that opinion on this board, whether you think it has any validity or not.

Eh?

I didn't say anything about whether anybody's opinion is "valid" or whether they're entitled to it. I stated MY opinion that not liking Janeway because she didn't pay enough attention to the "Native American hunk" is a silly reason to dislike her (and a rationale I suspect that springs from between the legs, rather than from the between the ears). As it stands, this is also an opinion I'm entitled to express.

Actually, when you start discussing my "rationale" and whether it comes from "between the legs" or "between the ears," you're discussing me and not the subject, and that's not an opinion you're entitled to express.

And you're wrong, anyway.

I don't find Janeway an effective leader--for that reason and for many others.

But, since you believe I'm arguing with my vagina rather than my head (interesting speculation, I must say), it's really pointless to continue to discuss this or any other matter with you.

Good day.

 

[Thestral]

There have been times when I have seemed lenient on crewmembers and some times when I have appeared, well some would say out of control, but all of the crewmembers are human, as am I and we all make mistakes, the important thing is that we learn from them, which my crew has shown they have done, time and again.

Tuvok would like a word with you. (Along with Neelix, Kes, Seven of Nine, B'Elanna Torres, HoloDoc, Lieutenant Stadi, Lon Suder, Vorik, and probably some others, depending on how you categorize Icheb and Naomi Wildman)

 

[kimc]

During my time in The Delta Quadrant, I have had to change the dynamics of both the professional and personal relationships between myself and the crew.

On one hand, I am their Captain, I have a duty to lead and protect them from everything we encounter in The Delta Quadrant and that means maintaining a distance from personal relationships with crewmembers, on the other hand I am the leader of a community and need to be approachable as well as understanding and at times an advisor.

Our first mission was seen as a short journey to The Badlands, nothing more, we didn't require the need of a Councillor or any other resource for maintaining crew morale and mental wellbeing.

There have been times when I have seemed lenient on crewmembers and some times when I have appeared, well some would say out of control, but all of the crewmembers are human, as am I and we all make mistakes, the important thing is that we learn from them, which my crew has shown they have done, time and again.

My interactions with The Equinox Crew were severe, they broke the basic foundations of Starfleet, even The Federation. They disregarded every principle I stand for and for that, I am unforgiving.

Captain Ransom saw the errors of his ways and did attempt to make amends towards the end, for this he would have been forgiven, not immediately granted, but I feel he would have continued to pay the price for his misguided actions.

So although I seem to be as someone said "a pushover mom" I simply chose to allow my crew the freedom to express their humanity.

An interesting defence from the Captain herself!

This IS exciting!

You never know who you're going to run into on this forum. Seska used to drop in but hasn't lately. If she pops into the same thread as our captain here I may start selling tickets.

 

[kimc]

I stated MY opinion that not liking Janeway because she didn't pay enough attention to the "Native American hunk" is a silly reason to dislike her (and a rationale I suspect that springs from between the legs, rather than from the between the ears). As it stands, this is also an opinion I'm entitled to express.

You're entitled to express an opinion but you're not entitled to make personal remarks about those you disagree with.

Besides, your logic is flawed. Janeway has plenty of female fans who view her as a role model/inspiration.

 

[Galekarens]

If Janeway was bi-polar or something (not saying that she was, btw), then it would seem that by the 24th century there would have been a cure for that, as in gene manipulation or something (which might still leave someone under severe stress a la being in the DQ maybe susceptible to something of a relapse, like in Night). Otherwise it would be hard to image Starfleet approving someone to Captain a ship who would be considered severely or even moderately mentally ill. Just MHO! GS.

 

[kes7]

There have been times when I have seemed lenient on crewmembers and some times when I have appeared, well some would say out of control, but all of the crewmembers are human, as am I and we all make mistakes, the important thing is that we learn from them, which my crew has shown they have done, time and again.

Tuvok would like a word with you. (Along with Neelix, Kes, Seven of Nine, B'Elanna Torres, HoloDoc, Lieutenant Stadi, Lon Suder, Vorik, and probably some others, depending on how you categorize Icheb and Naomi Wildman)

Icheb is not remotely human (he's a genetically engineered Brunali who is also part Borg). Naomi is half human.

Oh, and Tal Celes, too, she isn't human.

 

[Thestral]

There have been times when I have seemed lenient on crewmembers and some times when I have appeared, well some would say out of control, but all of the crewmembers are human, as am I and we all make mistakes, the important thing is that we learn from them, which my crew has shown they have done, time and again.

Tuvok would like a word with you. (Along with Neelix, Kes, Seven of Nine, B'Elanna Torres, HoloDoc, Lieutenant Stadi, Lon Suder, Vorik, and probably some others, depending on how you categorize Icheb and Naomi Wildman)

Icheb is not remotely human (he's a genetically engineered Brunali who is also part Borg). Naomi is half human.

Oh, and Tal Celes, too, she isn't human.

Well yeah, I was just avoiding the "but they're not part of the crew!!" response.

 

[Unimatrix 01]

No offense to Janeway (I think it's mostly the writers at fault) but I really didn't understand/like the bit in Alice where B'lanna complains that Tom was violent to her and Janeway dismisses her concerns.

JANEWAY: This isn't the first time you and Tom have had an argument about how he spends his free time.
TORRES: This wasn't a lovers' quarrel. Captain, he practically assaulted me. ......JANEWAY: All right, I'll have the Doctor take a look at him. In the meantime

Ummm, what? You would think spousal violence would be a serious matter. The writers failed in this respect.

Yeah but keep in mind B'Elanna has a wicked temper and is pretty aggressive herself so when she says someone else is being aggressive it doesn't really imply "spousal violence"... and they weren't married yet.